Yaoi and yuri, girls and boys

[Vashdaman]

But real talk I don't know what Yaoi and Yuri mean, unless AF's "man love anime" description is accurate. But then again maybe I'm better off not knowing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoi

Thanks Prof, but if I'm honest I wish I stopped reading after the first sentence, I didn't need to know all that. It seems AF's description was rather accurate and pleasant way of putting it. It was way worse then I thought it was going to be

Am I the only one who finds it incredibly disturbing that it's commonly called "boys love" manga? Seriously that's creepy.

Also this was one of the portions of the article that I found rather unsettling:

Rape
According to Suzuki, sexual intercourse in yaoi is a way of expressing commitment to a partner, and "apparent violence" in sex is a "measure of passion". Suzuki elaborates that when a woman is raped, she is stigmatised by society, but in yaoi narratives, boys who are loved by their rapists are still "imbued with innocence", a theme she attributes to Kaze to Ki no Uta.[124] According to Nagaike, rape scenes in yaoi are rarely presented as crimes with an assaulter and a victim. Nagaike feels that scenes where a seme rapes an uke are not symptomatic of the seme's "disruptive sexual/violent desires", but instead are a signifier of the "uncontrollable love" felt by a seme for an uke. Instead of being depicted as a crime, rape scenes can be a plot device used to make the uke see the seme as more than just a good friend, resulting in the uke falling in love with the seme.[46] Rape fantasy themes have been said to free the protagonist of responsibility in sex, leading to the narrative climax of the story, where "the protagonist takes responsibility for his own sexuality".[

I'm sorry but what the **** is wrong with these complete nutcases. Suzuki and Nagaike who ever thery are, are clearly slightly deranged."Rape scenes in yaoi are rarely presented as crimes with an assaulter and a victim" Do they even understand what rape is? " A signifier of the "uncontrollable love", this is just straight up ********. Wow, that is such a worrying paragraph for so many reasons. If one of these weird authors had a friend that been through the trauma of rape in real life I doubt they would be so keen to throw this crap into their manga, they are clearly completely clueless and have a warped way of thinking.

Quote:
Sometimes, schoolboys are depicted in sexual situations, which is controversial when these titles are licensed in countries where underage sexuality and its depiction is taboo."


This is a bit of an odd area within all anime and manga I think. I think most fans arent attracked to underage characters, but a lot of popular anime charcters are underage. Sometimes its hard to remember this because of how the characters act. I can remember that Gundam Wing slash was very popular, but the main characters are all supposed to be 14/15 type age.*

I agree. I never will understand why so much anime/manga/ yaoi or whatever, seems to have such an obsession with sexualising under-aged characters. I mean why do it? It doesn't matter if its a cartoon or not its still really worrying.


I've come to the conclusion that this yaio crap is way worse than I thought it was. This has always been one of my problems with anime/manga- despite the fact there are so many brilliant manga/anime out there, the art form is still very much linked to all this wierd yaoi/ under age/rape/sexist ********. I find the industries rather unhealthy pre occupation with this rubbish rather unsettling.

 

[Professor Irony]

I dunno, I think terming yaoi as "man love anime" is a bit insulting to anyone trying to make a serious story involving gay themes or characters.

I'm not really qualified to make a judgement on the grounds of never having read or seen any yaoi titles, but as far as I can tell, yaoi works generally express a certain kind of 'fantasy' male-male sexual relationship, usually aimed at a female audience.

Not that this makes the idea of depicting rape, as outlined in that article, any less disturbing. I dare say it isn't all like that and there are probably plenty of authors who do rise above that level with their work (Gravitation possibly being one example?), but I don't think it would be right to band 'yaoi' about as a catch-all term.

I don't know where it's from, but I'm sure there's quite a famous manga panel that crops up around the net showing a gaggle of fujoshi-types being completely repelled by the sight of actual gay pornography...

 

[MaxonTreik]

I've come to the conclusion that this yaio crap is way worse than I thought it was. This has always been one of my problems with anime/manga- despite the fact there are so many brilliant manga/anime out there, the art form is still very much linked to all this wierd yaoi/ under age/rape/sexist ********. I find the industries rather unhealthy pre occupation with this rubbish rather unsettling.

And yet good anime/manga still being produced, and this stuff has been going on for years. (No. Put those nostalgia goggles down.). I don't even understand where your outrage comes from, and quite frankly, you look like an idiot getting worked up over something so insignificant. It's just another part of the Japanese porn industry and it obviously doesn't do any harm to you if you only just learned of it. Deal with it.

 

[ayase]

@Vash (can't be arsed to quote)

Fiction is fiction, and others are going to have fantasies that you might find disturbing just as surely as they have opinions you don't agree with. The main thing is that it's *fiction* and as such is not causing any harm. I've always thought that if people have rape fantasies or paedophile tendencies it's better for them to be able to indulge them without harming others. I think a large part of the appeal of entirely fictional pornography is that it really isn't hurting anyone - there are no performers who may be being exploited were it a live action. I think that explains it's appeal especially to women, who tend to be more aware of the often degrading nature of a lot of pornography. A drawing isn't going to go and spend the $100 they just got for performing a sex act on camera on heroin so she can forget the whole experience.

As for under aged characters, the powers that be are the ones who decided that someone is a child the day before their 16th birthday and an adult the day after. That doesn't make it true. Without wanting to get into the lolicon/paedo debate again, until very recently in human history it was normal for people as young as thirteen to work and marry. I think a lot of kids would probably rather do that than go to school. It isn't natural to treat people as children until they are 16, and it certainly isn't natural to treat them as children until they are 18 like the Yanks do. It's repressive and belittling. Young people should be free to decide when they are ready for adult responsibilities. If they aren't, they'll find that out for themselves and learn from the experience. Get them down the mines, that's what I say.

 

[Sparrowsabre7]

@ Vash

I think it's always important to draw a line between fiction and reality though. You're acting like people who induldge in rape fantasies think rape is ok, which is most likely not the case.

To use the fictional violence example, the swathes of people worldwide who play violent videogames, including myself and many on this board, does not indicate that we would like to actually go out and commit these acts that we commit so freely in a virtual environment (though I can't speak for everyone here ) nor feel that violence is a good thing. I play Gears of War, but the very notion of actually chainsawing someone in half in reality is horrifying to me and I would never even dream of commiting such a vile offence.

I think it's very easy to instantly make assumptions about people based on their fantasies, especially when the subject is controversial in nature, but it's just as likely that many films/ anime etc that we enjoy may look equally abhorrent to someone else.

 

[Vashdaman]

I dunno, I think terming yaoi as "man love anime" is a bit insulting

It's better than "boy love" manga though isn't it?

And yet good anime/manga still being produced, and this stuff has been going on for years. (No. Put those nostalgia goggles down.). I don't even understand where your outrage comes from, and quite frankly, you look like an idiot getting worked up over something so insignificant. It's just another part of the Japanese porn industry and it obviously doesn't do any harm to you if you only just learned of it. Deal with it.

I never suggested it hadn't been going on for years. And while I may have only discovered the term Yaoi and the fact that rape and under age sex is a common theme in it, I have long been aware and irritated by the more seedy aspects of anime. The problem is this isn't just a porn thing elements of this type of thing find their way into main stream anime and manga. I even remember once when I was at a local manga shop, I was flicking through some Japanese Naruto accompaniment book (official and everything), I couldn't read a word but I was shocked when I came to an illustration depicting Naruto and Saskue in a intimate and suggestive position, this is a KIDS anime!

I've always thought that if people have rape fantasies or paedophile tendencies it's better for them to be able to indulge them without harming others

This comes back to the difference of opinion we had in one of our previous discussions. I don't believe indulging in porn fantasies is an adequate solution for someone who suffers from such destructive desires, it will probably only aggravate the situation. Seeking real forms of guidance and therapeutic help while avoiding such depraved porn is what I would suggest. Thats not to say your arguments not valid, as it could be argued that indulging those destructive fantasies through illustrated art is better than repression, but its tricky one to be honest, I personally don't think its the ideal or a real solution though.

until very recently in human history it was normal for people as young as thirteen to work and marry

Thank god its not normal now.

I think a lot of kids would probably rather do that than go to school.

I think 16 is plenty young enough. At least have them get the bare minimum of education before you marry them off.

It isn't natural to treat people as children until they are 16,

Its not right to baby then but I certainly wouldn't consider a 15 year old an adult, they haven't had long enough to develop, both physically and mentally. When I look back on my 16 year old self I can't say I was an "adult" back then, I was still a teenage child and acted like one.

the swathes of people worldwide who play violent videogames

To be honest I do have a problem with certain extremely violent video games, but even still I feel that marketing rape and under age sex is different as it deals with sexual urges. I feel its more unhealthy and can be more exploitative.

I think it's very easy to instantly make assumptions about people based on their fantasies

I'm not trying to make assumptions of people based of there fantasies, I'm more making assumptions of the people who put that stuff and on the market and try to get paid off it. If you fantasize about rape or sex with youngsters I would think something's probably out of balance and you should probably try to deal with whatever issues you have, but other then that I'm not judging them as long as they don't act out on those desires. I'm only judging the authors of this rubbish who are exploiting the people who do fantasize about this stuff.

 

[ilmaestro]

I have long been aware and irritated by the more seedy aspects of anime.

This has very little to do with anime, and far more to do with human imagination. Although I rather suspect you would like to see that done away with, too.

 

[Vashdaman]

lol. No, I'm just against marketing and selling degrading/self destructive/ disturbing imagery just to exploit a specific audience. Anyway where are these "authors" imagination? They seriously couldn't come up with a better expression of passionate love then a rape scene?

 

[Rui]

Re: Boys Love

This is no more meaningful as an indicator of paedophillic content than saying you have a "girl"friend means you are dating a prepubescent female. Please don't take loanwords literally, it will make you crazy. BL is not all about little boys, and I personally am not into that side of things at all.

Re: Rape

Obviously real rape is repulsive. I think it would be a very unusual crowd reading this thread for anyone to argue against this. Understand however, that from the perspective of the 'weaker' sex, rape is a real threat and something we tend to know about. In female-scripted works, the rape represents the powerlessness women often feel in relationships and in sex itself; even in a loving, mutually understanding relationship, for many couples the female tends to be in a submissive role when it comes to the actual sex. Tying into this submissive background, those kinds of scenes are usually portrayed with the perspective of the victim foremost, and not just for laughs in the kind of "hahaha rape is great" way that you seem to be imagining. Rape isn't love at all, but a safe fantasy of being trapped and horribly violated can provide the same kind of cathartic emotional outlet as an ultraviolent action scene in an action series might. Rape is probably the most powerful threat for a woman. That we know it's so serious and traumatic is precisely why it has an impact.

Please understand also that a lot of the focus in works aimed at women is on the emotions and the fallout of various situations. It's soap opera drama taken to an extreme. I would be utterly miserable if my life was as full of violence, shame, exploitation and idiocy as the characters in the average prime time television soap, but it's accepted and enjoyed as entertainment by millions of perfectly normal television viewers because they know it's not real.

Also, as with underaged stuff, just because some people read stories with rape in, doesn't mean the whole genre is like that any more than Urotsukidoji existing means all anime is trashy tentacle smut.

R

(P.S. where was this Naruto/Sasuke picture? Just kidding, but in all seriousness was it really an official book? Actual books for that kind of series tend to be very conservative, but there are published doujinshi anthologies which might have been what you saw. The makers of Naruto have never shown any signs, that I have noticed, of trying to pander to that kind of thing. And if they did I would think Kakashi x Iruka illustrations would be far more lucrative...)

 

[Corra]

Many women have fantasies about rape or forced sex. Some researchers feel it gives permission to explore dominant/submissive desires without feeling guilt or responsibility. Others feel it may stem from wanting to feel totally desirable and to have men unable to resist. Some believe it’s a response to previous sexual trauma, while others find it to be the result of a kinky imagination

Romance novels are full of stories about strong controlling men forcing themselves on women, but the women can tame him with the power of her love. It doesnt mean we want to be raped or treated like this in real life. Young girls will go crazy for Edward from Twilight, but nobody would really want a boyfriend who stalked them and could hurt them if he lost control.

I do agree that sometimes the casual way rape is dropped into a story could be upsetting, offensive and not appropriate to the story. It never felt right to me that rape was a plot point in Gravitation, which is supposed to be a comedy series. I never liked the part were the main character is raped by someone from a rival band and then the rest of the episode is him crossdressing as he thinks his love interest would prefer a girl.

Sometimes it feels like writers are going through a check list of things to include, and they throw is a rape plot becuase it is a genre trope.

 

[ilmaestro]

Naruto panders to "that kind of thing" by default (ie. just via its existence) imo, it is/was in the vanguard of "neo-shounen".

 

[Vashdaman]

Re: Boys Love

This is no more meaningful as an indicator of paedophillic content than saying you have a "girl"friend means you are dating a prepubescent female. Please don't take loanwords literally, it will make you crazy. BL is not all about little boys, and I personally am not into that side of things at all.

I'm sure its not an indicator of paedophilia content (even though according to that wiki page the genre seems to have a reputation for it), its just got a creepy sound to it for me.

even in a loving, mutually understanding relationship, for many couples the female tends to be in a submissive role when it comes to the actual sex.

Not in mine! I love to be dominated, seriously. lol

and not just for laughs in the kind of "hahaha rape is great" way that you seem to be imagining

No, I wasn't imagining that at all. I'm pretty sure I have a fair enough idea of what they are going for, I still find the whole idea completely disturbing.

Rape isn't love at all, but a safe fantasy of being trapped and horribly violated can provide the same kind of cathartic emotional outlet as an ultraviolent action scene in an action series might. Rape is probably the most powerful threat for a woman. That we know it's so serious and traumatic is precisely why it has an impact.

Well maybe I can't relate as I'm not really a big fan ultraviolent programmes and I'm not a woman, but still I just really don't like the idea of rape porn no matter if its aimed at the woman or man. I appreciate your and Corra's explanations but still I just can't understand why anyone would want to fill their heads with such stuff myself, well apart from what Corra mentioned about it being linked to a previous trauma. Don't get me wrong I'm not judging anyone who does get off on it, but the whole thing is just way too dark side for me to ever get my head around.

Please understand also that a lot of the focus in works aimed at women is on the emotions and the fallout of various situations. It's soap opera drama taken to an extreme. I would be utterly miserable if my life was as full of violence, shame, exploitation and idiocy as the characters in the average prime time television soap, but it's accepted and enjoyed as entertainment by millions of perfectly normal television viewers because they know it's not real.

Funnily enough I also consider anyone who sits through daily episodes of EastEnders, Corrie ect, ect to be mentally unstable. You have to be to be able to sit through that ****. Although Neighbours back in the day used to be aight, but thats specifically because the problems the characters in the show faced where mostly so minor that I could handle it.

(P.S. where was this Naruto/Sasuke picture? Just kidding, but in all seriousness was it really an official book? Actual books for that kind of series tend to be very conservative, but there are published doujinshi anthologies which might have been what you saw. The makers of Naruto have never shown any signs, that I have noticed, of trying to pander to that kind of thing. And if they did I would think Kakashi x Iruka illustrations would be far more lucrative...)

I lied before, I didn't flick through the book in the shop.....I bought it
I know, I know I'm ashamed but this is when I had only seen a few eps of Naruto and I thought it was going to be good. That image was actually the first thing that put me off the show. I got the book right here, its definitely a Jump Comics one. The actual image I was talking about doesn't actually have Naruto in it, it has Sasuke with some black haired guy, both are naked with their genitals just out of view, Sasuke is on top of the other guy......Then below that there is a pic of Naruto in his hot chick transformation thing naked pressing his breasts up against another black haired woman (possibly another transformed boy??)...err yeah its weird.

rape was a plot point in Gravitation

Didn't someone mention Gravitation as being a batter example of the genre!?

 

[Rui]

There was a funny neo-shounen jab in Sayonara Zetsubou-sensei 10 which I just happened to be reading. I think TeniPuri was probably the moment the floodgates burst open forever, though that might be because the non-teacher characters in Naruto completely annoy me, no matter how many doujinshi they might star in.

I lied before, I didn't flick through the book in the shop.....I bought it
I know, I know I'm ashamed but this is when I had only seen a few eps of Naruto and I thought it was going to be good. That image was actually the first thing that put me off the show. I got the book right here, its definitely a Jump Comics one. The actual image I was talking about doesn't actually have Naruto in it, it has Sasuke with some black haired guy, both are naked with their genitals just out of view, Sasuke is on top of the other guy......Then below that there is a pic of Naruto in his hot chick transformation thing naked pressing his breasts up against another black haired woman (possibly another transformed boy??)...err yeah its weird.

;

Didn't someone mention Gravitation as being a batter example of the genre!?

The Gravitation anime doesn't make it obvious the rape happens at all, it's more like a general assault from what I recall and the tone of the series at that point is much less dark. The Gravitation manga is less subtle and is also sort of annoying in general. It also has giant panda robots stomping through cities if I recall correctly >_>

R

 

[ilmaestro]

There was a funny neo-shounen jab in Sayonara Zetsubou-sensei 10

FFFFFFF

Everywhere I go someone is reminding me about this series, which I am yet to read or watch. Resistance is breaking down.

I lied before, I didn't flick through the book in the shop.....I bought it
I know, I know I'm ashamed but this is when I had only seen a few eps of Naruto and I thought it was going to be good. That image was actually the first thing that put me off the show. I got the book right here, its definitely a Jump Comics one. The actual image I was talking about doesn't actually have Naruto in it, it has Sasuke with some hot black haired guy, both are naked with their genitals just out of view, Sasuke is on top of the other guy......Then below that there is a pic of Naruto in his hot chick transformation thing naked pressing his breasts up against another black haired woman (possibly another transformed boy??)...err yeah its weird.

What.

And can I repeat for emphasis.

What.

Didn't someone mention Gravitation as being a batter example of the genre!?

^^^

Something about Gravitation and batter (I didn't want to lower the tone, but I couldn't help it).

 

[Vashdaman]

Naruto panders to "that kind of thing" by default (ie. just via its existence) imo, it is/was in the vanguard of "neo-shounen".

What's the thing it panders too? Activities of homoerotic children?

Who are the creators even pandering too? The show is mostly aimed at children from like 8-13 years old. It makes no sense whatsoever, its completely bonkers.

 

[ilmaestro]

They are pandering to the "hidden audience" of fujoshi - Jump has increased its female readership considerably over the last decade or so in this manner, in an attempt to make up for declining readership numbers overall.

 

[Vashdaman]

Err, seriously?

Wouldn't Jumps average female readerships age be about 8-13 as well? Since when are girls of that age interested in homoerotic boys? I wasn't even aware women full stop were particularly interested in homoerotic men!

This is all a bit too much for me, I think I'm going to commence a holy purge tomorrow and burn every copy of Jump currently being sold in London.

 

[ilmaestro]

I think you're just deliberately not listening to what you're being told.

 

[Vashdaman]

eh, you said Jump increased its female readership by including more of this type of pandering?

What did I miss? Unless by "hidden audience" you mean grown women are reading it for that reason, but that would be rather odd indeed.

 

[ilmaestro]

I said it increased its female readership, you took some implied demographic from that. Although perhaps I should also have stuck with "audience" as my term, just in case.

You would love Comike btw Vash, come along next year. ^^;