The US election result: your thoughts? (serious)

Outlawstar said:
The only way it can is through non-violent non-co-operation by the people.
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But people have come to rely on the Government to manage their lives to an extent that they go along with things, even things they might not agree with, if it will make their lives easier. No-one likes hardship, and no-one really wants to go up against the law / government for fear of reprisal and people in power have exploited that to such an extent that it's become a case of "Don't worry about anything, just give us your money and we'll sort it out."

I think The Clash said it best: "Everybody's doing, just what they're told to, 'cause nobody wants... to go to jail!"

CitizenGeek said:
I don't think you should be so flippant about terrorism. It is very real.
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But it's hardly new is it? It might be to the Yanks but we had the IRA for more than half a century. What suddenly changed? Why didn't Britain invade Ireland to stamp out Irish nationalism? (which is just as ridiculous an idea as invading Afghanistan or Iraq to stamp out Islamic fundamentalism) Why didn't we say "Gerry Adams, wanted dead or alive." Why only now are we introducing all these anti-terror laws and airport security staff so full of fake authority they take my ******* sun tan lotion off me because it was 50ml over the limit? Police State here we come...

We made ourselves a target for terrorism by invading Afghanistan & Iraq, as did Spain. If we'd stayed out of the whole thing there would have been no London bombings.

CitizenGeek said:
Why don't you check out Saudi Arabia...
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Our closest ally in the middle east after Israel, who we sell weapons and fighter jets to.

And that's all I have to say about that.
 
To quite honest... I really don't give a crap who gets in.
A braindead chimp could be the American president for all I care... oh wait, they all are arn't they?
 
ayase said:
Again, rambling. 130 million Americans voted in an historic election last Tuesday. This is a sign of a country on the verge of fascism? Honestly, what are you talking about?
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Did you know Adolf Hitler was actually voted in?
Just a thought...
 
ayase said:
But it's hardly new is it? It might be to the Yanks but we had the IRA for more than half a century. What suddenly changed? Why didn't Britain invade Ireland to stamp out Irish nationalism? (which is just as ridiculous an idea as invading Afghanistan or Iraq to stamp out Islamic fundamentalism) Why didn't we say "Gerry Adams, wanted dead or alive." Why only now are we introducing all these anti-terror laws and airport security staff so full of fake authority they take my ******* sun tan lotion off me because it was 50ml over the limit? Police State here we come...
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Invading Iraq was a disgraceful decision, I acknowledge that.

But the government of Afghanistan (the Taliban) was harbouring and training Al Qaeda terrorists - as such, the invasion and overthrowing of the Taliban was the only choice the US had. It is completely different to the situation in Northern Ireland. Islamic extremism and Irish nationalism are also two very different things. These differences are vitally important to this discussion and I really don't consider the comparision with Northern Ireland to be entirely apt.

We made ourselves a target for terrorism by invading Afghanistan & Iraq, as did Spain. If we'd stayed out of the whole thing there would have been no London bombings.
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September 11th happenend before Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded.

Gundam Junkie said:
Did you know Adolf Hitler was actually voted in?
Just a thought...
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Did you know that comparing things to Hitler, or Nazism in order to make a point is absolutely ridiculous and automatically makes your aforemetioned point completely redundant?
 
I think you're being naive, Outlawstar. No one "enjoys" killing other people, and "killing people" is not the reason US troops are in Afganistan. Honestly, this kind of anti-American sentiment is - to be entirely frank - absolute ********. And I'm sick of it. Sure, the US was wrong to invade Iraq and US foreign policy isn't entirely pleasant; but how could it be? The US is a massive superpower with huge interests all over the world: a tough foreign policy is required to maintain this (that said, I do hope Obama tones it down a little).
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"No-one enjoys killing anyone". Seriously, Are you mad?Get a grip.
Your presumtions are horrendous, I have absolutoly NOTHING aganist Americans, or ANY race for that matter, I have absolutoly NO vein of Racism running through my body, seriously, stop throwing your own spin on things I say, ans stop putting words in my mouth.
I don't think you should be so flippant about terrorism. It is very real.
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Once again, your putting words in my mouth, please dont downgrade an intelligent debate to mindless derogatory crap.

And the fight against "Islamic extremism", come on CG, throw me a bone here, youve been utterly suckered in, and I dont blame you tbh, the media has done a great job on us.
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You've been suckered in by the anti-America bandwagon, it seems. If you don't think Islamic extremism is real, then I'd like to ask you something: On what planet are you living? There is a minority of Muslims that detest the West for it's freedom (I understand this sounds empty given it's over-usage by Bush, but it is nonetheless true). These Muslims are willing to kill themselves in order to inflict damage on the West, and they're not just going to give up if the West pulls out of the Middle East. It is outrageously naive of you to claim that Islamic extremism is an invention of the media. Why don't you check out Saudi Arabia (where women are not allowed to drive, and even fast food restaurants are segregated on the basis of gender) or Iran, where teenagers have been executed for being gay and young women murdered in "honour killings" for refusing to be sexually oppressed. Iran and Saudi Arabia are but two examples - this kind of extremism is prevalent throughout the Middle East and Islamic Africa. The people pulling these strings hate the West and want to do us harm. And so, we must fight back and we must not underestimate their drive. We need to reach out to the reasonable majority of Muslims and help them break free from the extremist minority, but in the mean time we need to keep fighting them on the ground. Reality, it seems, is looked down upon with disdain by the mindless anti-America brigade, but it is nontheless reality. The bombings on London, Bali, Madrid and New York were very real and there have been many more attempts by extremists, too.
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You have completely misinterpreted what I have said again, nowhere did I say it wasint real, NOWHERE.And I didint say it was an invention of the media.Listen CG for us to truly converse about this matter, it would have to be in person, and I would like that, I hold no grudges.




Perhaps you are right, but the West is at least 'winning' in Iraq against Islamic jihadis and slowly, but surely, we might just beat them completely.
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"We might just beat them", this isint a game, you think they are the only extremists in the world?.



You really are very ill-informed, Outlawstar. Obama doesn't support censoring the internet, TV or radio (and I fail to see why that relates to "terrorists"). You're merely rambling your mindless anti-American talking points, I'm afraid.
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Again with the Anti-American jazz, my God, you know how easy that is dont you, I mean I can just as easily say you are Anti-anti American.
Please stop with the labeling, if you are going to disagree with me at least do it with a bit of honour.
Also, about the censorship, the plans are already in motion to censor the internet, I admit it may not actually happen, but I have no problem seeing it come to that.




Again, rambling. 130 million Americans voted in an historic election last Tuesday. This is a sign of a country on the verge of fascism? Honestly, what are you talking about?
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CG if you actually had ANY CLUE as to what is going on in America you wouldint even dare ask such a question.
Hmmm, illegal war, constitution BROKEN by laws FORCED through congress WITHOUT their consent, imprisoning American citizens without trial, give me a break CG, I could go on all day.





And seeing as you bring up 9/11, anyone who still believes the official story needs a wake up call.
The official story can easily be ripped apart from start to finish.
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I guess I should have expected it, after that awful mess of nonsense anti-American rhetoric you had previously posted, but I was still genuinely surprised that you deny the facts of 9/11.
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How many times have you actually said Anti-American.
You know something CG, what are the facts then?
I know for a FACT you cant win on this one.

ON another note, these kind of debates often spiral like this, so lets try to keep it civil and to the point.
 
Gundam Junkie said:
Did you know Adolf Hitler was actually voted in?
Just a thought...
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Did you know that comparing things to Hitler, or Nazism in order to make a point is absolutely ridiculous and automatically makes your aforemetioned point completely redundant?
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His point is in no way redundant, its actually a GREAT point that very elegantly countered your own, if you cant handle that and have to dodge around the conclusion, thats your problem.
 
CitizenGeek said:
It is completely different to the situation in Northern Ireland. Islamic extremism and Irish nationalism are also two very different things. These differences are vitally important to this discussion and I really don't consider the comparision with Northern Ireland to be entirely apt.
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They both thought that killing both innocent civilians and members of governments who sided aginst them was a good way to get what they wanted. Their aims may have been different but their methods were the same, hence why I'm baffled as to why we suddenly need all these new "anti-terror" measures. And if you're reffering to the suicide bombing thing, what does it matter? Someone blows themselves up, someone puts a bomb in a bin and blows it up. End result's the same. And the last attempted terror attack was with car bombs, exactly the same as the IRA.

CitizenGeek said:
September 11th happenend before Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded.
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Call me cold, but that was America, not Britain or another European country. I don't believe we would have been very high up the list as a terror target if we had just left well alone. Besides, terrorism's just one of those things that happens. If you look back, I bet Britain has on average sustained one major act of terrorism every decade for the past 200 years at least.

Edit: In fact, after looking into it there have been attempted terrorist attacks on Britain almost every year since 1970. Less in the early 20th century.

Care to address to problem of why, if Britain & America are so up for fighting Islamic Fundamentalism, we're so close to Saudi Arabia and never condemn their human rights abuses like we do Iran's?
 
Care to address to problem of why, if Britain & America are so up for fighting Islamic Fundamentalism, we're so close to Saudi Arabia and never condemn their human rights abuses like we do Iran's?
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This is a good point you bring up.
It leads me to something interesting.
Did you guys know that it was the CIA WHO FORMED AND ARMED AL QUIEDA!!!!!

Seriously I dont wanna come across all knowing anything CG, Im just trying to get across that there IS a lot more to things then the mainstream take.
there really is, its not like Im just saying things off the top of my head.

For instance, and this is just a SMALL thing in comparison to what I could tell you.
The US government has commited over 200 FALSE FLAG Terrorist attacks all around the world to get what they want, killing innocent people in the process, this is documented and admitted, people just dont know it, you wont see that on the evening news.

If people only knew the gross inhuman atrocities the American Government(and many other governments) have commited under the radar, the public would be OUTRAGED!!!!!!!!!

Deny Ignorance.


Please before you refute anything I say, have a dig, you might very well be surprised at waht you might find. :D
 
Outlawstar, you really are going to have to start verifying your bizarre claims about the US government before I start to discuss this with you. So, go ahead, show me proof of these atrocities committed by the US government (I'm especially interested in finding out how the CIA formed and equipped Al Qaeda).
 
While I might think you're going a little over the top Outlaw, it is true that America armed and actually helped spread a sense of "Afghan / Muslim Nationalism" (if it can be called that) in the Hezbollah fighters of Afghanistan as a way to counter the Soviet invasion. Sometimes you do reap what you sow.

And I don't know about the false flag terrorism thing, it's hard to ever get at the truth in these matters - just look at the myriad of complex lies, falsehoods and just downright unknowns (on both sides of the debate) surrounding JFK's assasination.

But I've no doubt there are factions within the American administration that engage in some pretty atrocious behaviour undermining other foriegn governments. Look at the whole Iran-Contra affair (the tip of the iceberg when it comes to US hipocracy - remember when they were friends with Saddam Hussain? Remember when they had him hanged?) I've no doubt the same sort of thing still goes on.

And I don't think (in a vain attempt to bring us back to our original point - apologies Martin) Obama could get rid of these people, or will even be aware of some of the things that go on. It's been happening since the days of J. Edgar Hoover, a faction of the Government / Military / Intelligence / Justice System of the USA who are simply a law unto themselves.
 
http://www.nowpublic.com/false_flag...ed_terrorist_attacks_against_its_own_citizens


http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2006/02/false-flags-in-america.html

[url=http://911review.com/article...1review.com/articles/anon/fals ... tions.html[/url]

http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/jun ... dfront.htm



Listen CG Ill be sure to link you to much more stuff in the morning, aint really got the energy to go surfing for it now.
Also I have plenty of books on such subjects, but I can hardly link you to that ey^^

But like I said, dont take things at face value, go have a little dig, you really will be surprised once you follow the money trails.




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I watched a fair bit of the news whilst the votes came in, was glad that Obama won it, there was, to be honest, not that much doubt with him doing so though. Even though McCain basically campaigned to the last minute nearly, he wasn't liked much, specially with Palin tagging along. Asides from that, he just couldn't promise enough, and many people kinda got the idea that McCain would just be another bush, which in a sense he would be, with Bush being republican, it would be the same majority of people in power as there was with Bush.

I do think Obama can make a difference, but as everywhere keeps saying, it'll be down to what he gets done in the first 100 days as president that will show if there is any difference. Mind you, he will have a huge mountain to climb what with the financial crisis still about, so it'll be interesting to watch how he manages to cope with that too. I think he'll be able to manage, but we won't know until the 20th/21st January onwards.
 
]While I might think you're going a little over the top Outlaw,
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The truth is often stranger than fiction.

And I don't know about the false flag terrorism thing, it's hard to ever get at the truth in these matters - just look at the myriad of complex lies, falsehoods and just downright unknowns (on both sides of the debate) surrounding JFK's assasination.
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Check my link, and research it a bit yourself, and you will see there is NO question that America(and other countries)have been doing it for years.
 
Outlawstar, your "evidence" is flimsy at best. Egregiously biased at worst. Thank you for wasting my time with all of that stuff.

But, alas, I see you are convinced of your convictions, and I won't be changing my opinion that Islamic extremism is very real, won't go away and needs to be fought any time soon either. So, let's just leave it at that, eh? ;]

Anyway, President-Elect Obama is already assembling his cabinet and I'm very eager to see who is put in charge of the different departments. He's said that his cabinet will include Republicans, so I hope that the decent Republicans (Senators Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins, Arlen Specter and Chuck Hagel) are top of the list for him. Also, the states these Republicans represent (with the exception of Hagel's Nebraska) have Democratic Governors who would appoint Democrats to take their Senate seats (which would bolster the Democrat's majority in the Senate). It's pretty much a given that Robert Gates will be kept on as Defence Secretary at this stage. John Kerry has been mentioned as Secretary of State, and to be honest, I think that would be a safe, but good selection.

As for Hillary, there is speculation that Obama would appoint her to the Supreme Court when he gets the chance. I think this move would be genius - not only would the Supreme Court be injected with some much needed liberal thinking, but it would energise the Democratic base in a large way and also keep the Clintons happy and involved (which is what they want).

Rahm Emanuel is a highly accomplished politician and I'm confident he will make a good Chief of Staff. He is a partisan figure (more or less reviled by all Republicans who cross him), which isn't entirely a bad thing ;]

Any thoughts on the Obama cabinet?
 
My thoughts are that, with this being a UK anime/manga forum, it's bizarre how members would rather talk about things such as the American election on here; a forum that's as active as my nan. Surely there must be a semi-active political forum out there somewhere...or, better yet, an American forum where lots of eager yanks are probably getting all excited over this, it being relevant to them and all. I mean, I can't say I remember the last time I saw Martian post about anime/manga...although, having said that, I am a bit of a goldfish.

It'd be fine if certain posters actually bothered argu...erm, talking about anime other than series that came out before the 21st century, but that isn't the case.
 
CitizenGeek said:
Outlawstar, your "evidence" is flimsy at best. Egregiously biased at worst. Thank you for wasting my time with all of that stuff.

But, alas, I see you are convinced of your convictions, and I won't be changing my opinion that Islamic extremism is very real, won't go away and needs to be fought any time soon either. So, let's just leave it at that, eh? ;]

Anyway, President-Elect Obama is already assembling his cabinet and I'm very eager to see who is put in charge of the different departments. He's said that his cabinet will include Republicans, so I hope that the decent Republicans (Senators Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins, Arlen Specter and Chuck Hagel) are top of the list for him. Also, the states these Republicans represent (with the exception of Hagel's Nebraska) have Democratic Governors who would appoint Democrats to take their Senate seats (which would bolster the Democrat's majority in the Senate). It's pretty much a given that Robert Gates will be kept on as Defence Secretary at this stage. John Kerry has been mentioned as Secretary of State, and to be honest, I think that would be a safe, but good selection.

As for Hillary, there is speculation that Obama would appoint her to the Supreme Court when he gets the chance. I think this move would be genius - not only would the Supreme Court be injected with some much needed liberal thinking, but it would energise the Democratic base in a large way and also keep the Clintons happy and involved (which is what they want).

Rahm Emanuel is a highly accomplished politician and I'm confident he will make a good Chief of Staff. He is a partisan figure (more or less reviled by all Republicans who cross him), which isn't entirely a bad thing ;]

Any thoughts on the Obama cabinet?
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CG do you really expect me to believe you even went through half of what I posted, or even bothered to have a look into it yourself.

Listen CG, check these out, proof that the American Government planned false flag attcks against its own people, and the only reason it didint materialise is because of JFK, and look what hapened to him.

Look CG, instead of dismissing things you have done no research on, look at things with an open mind, and the real trick is to never think you know it all, I have absolutoly no problem being proven wrong if its gonna get me closer to truth.


[url=http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/]http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/[/url]

http://www.retakingamerica.com/northwoods_page_1.html
 
Aion - that's why this is in the Random Chat section of the forum. The problem (which we've just been over in a thread of yours, I think) with starting a thread about a specific older anime is that only a few people have seen each one, so you get about four posts saying "Yeah, I liked it too." and if you're (un?)lucky someone will pick a fight and the thread will only end when someone decides to give up.

I see CG has finally come round to this way of thinking too as he has decided not to bother arguing against the points Outlaw and I raised against his arguments, which is ironic as he was berating me for doing exactly the same thing not long ago. Of course he's likely to say that this is a bizzaire, ridiculous, acusation that he's positively incredulous at.

Frankly I'm getting to old (or should that just be mature?) for all this and will probably soon be on semi-permanent retirement in the counting thread.
 
ayase said:
I see CG has finally come round to this way of thinking too as he has decided not to bother arguing against the points Outlaw and I raised against his arguments, which is ironic as he was berating me for doing exactly the same thing not long ago. Of course he's likely to say that this is a bizzaire, ridiculous, acusation that he's positively incredulous at.
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You've got me all wrong, ayase; Firstly, I can spell the words 'bizarre' and 'accusation' correctly. Secondly, I can use words like 'incredulous' in a gramatically acceptable fashion. Nice try, though ;]

And if you're wondering why I'm not replying to your "points", it's because instead of wording your own points in the context of this thread, yourself and Outlawstar in particular are relying on links to verbose nonsense. This nonsense is not taken seriously by anyone with the exception of those on the fringe of all-consuming anti-Americanism (see Outlawstar's posts for reference). I'm not going to legitmise this nonsense by properly debating it. When I called Outlawstar's "evidence" flimsy and biased, I was simply being polite. I am uninterested (again, to put it mildly) in your opinion that 9/11 was orchestrated by the US government. You can stop clutching at straws now.

Also, just ftr, I did read through portions of that garbage you linked to. One of the them said that, essentially, America was to blame for the Japanese attack on it's Pearl Harbour fleet because they somehow knew it was coming and failed to react. And that they done this to gain entry into World War II.

Yeah, I rest my case.

Now, if you want to discuss this, I suggest you make a thread all about it. Please don't hijack a thread on the election of Barack Obama.
 
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