Strong but Fan service nevertheless Female Anime Characters?

Neferpitou

Stand User
Seem to be a bit trend now and also in the previous decade to have Strong & Powerful female Fan Service style Characters in Anime/Manga.

What people people opinion on them?

While they are step up from character just their purely to add a bit sexy fan service in Anime/Manga. But are they only made strong to get away from appearing just to be there for Fan service or maybe to cater to fans who find strong women sexually appealing?

Here are a few example of characters I am talking about:

Jo: Burst Angel

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Fairy Tail: Erza Scarlet

654px-Erza.jpg


Rangiku Matsumoto: Bleach

chara_rangiku01.gif


Tsunade: Naruto


Tsunade.jpg
 
I think it's far *less* of a trend now, certainly than it was in the 80's and early 90's. Which probably goes hand in hand with the fact that female empowerment was seen as good, progressive thing back then; something which began in the 60's, peaked in the mid to late 80's and now continues to go horrifically downhill.

I'd like to think that these kind of characters are viewed in a positive light by (some) women as well as (some) men. Finding strong female characters attractive is surely a positive thing, regardless of the fanservice factor. If a male creator like Rei Hiroe creates a character like Revy with obvious view to her being "sexy" despite being being the most aggressive, borderline homicidal maniac female character ever seen in anime, this is still a man saying "I approve of women not only being strong, but being stronger and tougher than most men. And I find this attractive."

It is the case that strong, attractive women in fiction do seem to have developed a reputation for being a "male fantasy". However, virtually every female archetype in fiction is derided as such, given that a lot of writers of these characters happen to *be* men (what else but a "male fantasy" is a product of the imagination of a man going to be)? But if strong women were portrayed as being unattractive, surely that would send a negative message that strength in women is an undesirable thing? Granted, women shouldn't be judged solely by their attractiveness to men, but presenting strong women as desirable can only lead to greater tolerance, acceptance and love of strong women from men. Which is a lot better than the alternative.

I am of course utterly biased in my thinking, as strong women are virtually the only human beings I have any respect for or attraction to in real life.
 
Really ayase? You think there was as much "outright" fanservice pandering in the characters from Gall Force, Bubblegum Crisis, You're Under Arrest, etc? I'm sure when I have accused these shows of being the source of this (esp. Gall Force) you have disagreed.
 
ayase said:
I think it's far *less* of a trend now, certainly than it was in the 80's and early 90's. Which probably goes hand in hand with the fact that female empowerment was seen as good, progressive thing back then; something which began in the 60's, peaked in the mid to late 80's and now continues to go horrifically downhill.

The four example I gave were from series either from 2000 or still running in that era. I can't think of many fan service strong heroines in 80's and 90's than compared to many shows in 2000's onwards that have strong fan service characters:

Queen Blade
Ikkitōsen
The Sacred Blacksmith
High School of the Dead
Dragonaut
Gunslinger Girl
Negima
Fairy Tail
Tenjho Tenge
Birdy the Mighty
Desert Punk
Burst Angel
Daphne In The Brilliant Blue
Black Lagoon
My-HIME
Gurren Lagann


ayase said:
It is the case that strong, attractive women in fiction do seem to have developed a reputation for being a "male fantasy". However, virtually every female archetype in fiction is derided as such, given that a lot of writers of these characters happen to *be* men (what else but a "male fantasy" is a product of the imagination of a man going to be)? But if strong women were portrayed as being unattractive, surely that would send a negative message that strength in women is an undesirable thing? Granted, women shouldn't be judged solely by their attractiveness to men, but presenting strong women as desirable can only lead to greater tolerance, acceptance and love of strong women from men. Which is a lot better than the alternative.

Their a big difference of having strong female characters and having a strong female character who keeps on revealing flesh all the time.

A few example of strong but non fan service characters:

Most Heroine in Studio Ghibi Films
Sango - inuyasha
Yuko Ichihara - XXXHOLiC
Pakunoda or Palm Siberia - Hunter_×_Hunter
Hitomi Kanzaki - Escaflowne
Alyx Vance- Half Life 2
Jade - beyond good and evil.
 
I'm just gonna pop in and say 'Motoko Kusanagi' before anybody else does.

Motoko Kusanagi!




Okay, I'm done.
 
Neferpitou said:
But are they only made strong to get away from appearing just to be there for Fan service or maybe to cater to fans who find strong women sexually appealing?
Fanservice is fanservice whichever way you do it. Strong women imply sexual assertiveness, and these women are more appealing to some as they bypass any kind of rejection anxiety issues on the male's part.

ayase said:
But if strong women were portrayed as being unattractive, surely that would send a negative message that strength in women is an undesirable thing? Granted, women shouldn't be judged solely by their attractiveness to men, but presenting strong women as desirable can only lead to greater tolerance, acceptance and love of strong women from men. Which is a lot better than the alternative.
The alternative being that normal looking women can also be strong women and valued purely for their strength of character? If having strong-ugly women sends an undesireable message out, it's more the viewer's issue. Whilst I see your logic, that approach perhaps causes other issues in that impossibly ideal standards are still expected from women (must be strong and hot to be valued by others).

At the same time, I've got to acknowledge it's not anime's job to provide role models, they're there to sell units. If both happen, that's awesome. And human nature is human nature.

Neferpitou's got some good examples, especially the Ghibli leads, and despite the swimsuit in SAC HdE's suggestion of Kusanagi is a good example as well.

Edit: I need to get an in-browser spell-checker.
 
sic vita est said:
Neferpitou's got some good examples, especially the Ghibli leads, and despite the swimsuit in SAC HdE's suggestion of Kusanagi is a good example as well.

She's basically the hardest woman in anime, innit? She still makes Black Lagoon's Revy look like a pampered sissy-girl in my opinion.

I love that episode of SAC where she gets her hand blown off, before being royally owned by the guy in the powered armour. When the tables are turned, she deals with the guy by grabbing a high caliber sniper rifle and shooting him repeatedly at point blank range.

THAT'S how you do things.
 
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ilmaestro said:
Really ayase? You think there was as much "outright" fanservice pandering in the characters from Gall Force, Bubblegum Crisis, You're Under Arrest, etc? I'm sure when I have accused these shows of being the source of this (esp. Gall Force) you have disagreed.
Probably not, I've never seen any of the shows listed in the first post. I believe what I objected to previously was the idea that those shows were somehow the progenitors of Moe, which does not compute for me at all. I don't deny that there's fanservice present in them.

Perhaps it depends what you view as fanservice. The "strong but not fanservice" characters Neferpitou listed above (the ones I'm familiar with, anyhow) are still nevertheless portrayed as being attractive, or at least pretty. Perhaps I have a more old-fashioned view of fanservice being the kind of skimpy Kei & Yuri outfits of 1985 than the enormous jiggling bosoms of Queens Blade. In which case, just write me off as out of touch and continue the discussion.

The alternative being that normal looking women can also be strong women and valued purely for their strength of character? If having strong-ugly women sends an undesireable message out, it's more the viewer's issue. Whilst I see your logic, that approach perhaps causes other issues in that impossibly ideal standards are still expected from women (must be strong and hot to be valued by others).
One problem with that - the medium of animation. It's very hard to create an "ordinary" looking character; they are either good looking or they are ugly. I thing ordinary looking strong women are a great thing in live action (or in real life), but an animated character made up of a limited number of lines is either going to be attractive or unattractive. Really, it's more the psychological effect I think is important. If strong women are presented as attractive then it reinforces the idea that "strong women = good" in the minds of heterosexual men. If they are presented as unattractive, it reinforces the idea that "strong women = bad" however shallow that might seem. As someone who thinks that strong women are definitely a good thing, I'd rather it was the former.
 
ayase said:
Perhaps it depends what you view as fanservice.
I think that probably is the issue, or more that using the same generic word for a bunch of things is. Kei and Yuri are definitely the best examples from back then, I think, which is why I left Dirty Pair off my list of examples (not that Gall Force doesn't have a bunch of shower scenes etc, or the other shows have no fanservice at all). "Fanservice", of course, just means something added specifically for fans to mark out at, rather than for the actual benefit it brings to the show, so you're not wrong at all in what you say. But I do think he was making the distinction between "pretty" characters or "attractive" characters (for me, YUA is the best example of this), and characters with more "obvious" physical charms (I'm not sure Naruto or Bleach are the best examples of this either, tbh).

I think all of these discussions tend to be colored by the fact that there has been so much more anime created in the last two decades than the previous two, too, though, and certainly target demographics have changed considerably.
 
I've just recently started watching Code Geass for the first time. I would have gotten through it long ago, but someone sent me a clip of the scene with Lelouch talking to Kallen while she's in the shower and after a heated argument, she didn't notice she pushed the shower curtain aside and shown her everything to him. It all just seemed like a weak excuse for fanservice and I lost interest thinking it's all it had going for it

Now that I'm getting through it, it's actually not half bad so I'm more open towards it. Basically, what Stu said, Fan service is peachy, as long as the series doesn't have to rely on it
 
ayase said:
The alternative being that normal looking women can also be strong women and valued purely for their strength of character?[...]
One problem with that - the medium of animation. It's very hard to create an "ordinary" looking character; they are either good looking or they are ugly. I thing ordinary looking strong women are a great thing in live action (or in real life), but an animated character made up of a limited number of lines is either going to be attractive or unattractive.[...]
I'll have to concede that the medium does limit things somewhat, but I'm going to highlight Paranoia Agent as having some decidedly average-looking characters. You seem to be inferring that if a man sees a strong, good-natured woman who happens to be average-looking or unattractive they will chalk this up as a negative for strong women? I'm not sure this is the case. Although human nature being what it is, I can see why you'd err on the side of "sex sells" (on the grounds it will work at least on the subconscious level, I take it?).

With all that said, it's not like anime is the only medium guilty of this.

HdE, that's one of the standout scenes of the whole series for me.
 
sic vita est said:
You seem to be inferring that if a man sees a strong, good-natured woman who happens to be average-looking or unattractive they will chalk this up as a negative for strong women? I'm not sure this is the case. Although human nature being what it is, I can see why you'd err on the side of "sex sells" (on the grounds it will work at least on the subconscious level, I take it?).
Come on now, I explicitly said that *I* thought average looking women being presented in media was a good thing.

Sadly for most men I think there *is* a strong subconscious connect between a woman's appearance and their character. There is a particular hang-up over strong women in media which stems from the fact that back in the olden days they were often presented as being a danger or a threat to men's authority (and by extension the very fabric of society). If strong female characters are not attractive to men, the danger is that they simply view them in this negative way. Because, truth be told, strong women *are* a threat to men as they are entirely superior to us. One step at a time. Let's encourage the average man to like strong women first, then we can move on to average looking women... We'll have overthrown the patriarchy in a few decades. I'll finish with two quotes from William Moulton Marsden, creator of Wonder Woman, one of my personal heroes and a man who obviously knew the score:

"Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."

"Give [men] an alluring woman stronger than themselves to submit to, and they'll be proud to become her willing slaves!"
 
sic vita est said:
HdE, that's one of the standout scenes of the whole series for me.

It certainly is memorable.

When I watch it now, Mary McGlynn's roar of 'SAITO! HAWK OVER THAT RIFLE NOW!' makes my blood run cold.
 
butch-cassidy said:
Neferpitou, I really don't think Gunslinger Girl belongs on that list...

It is form of Strong Female Fan Service. While maybe not of the flesh showing variety it certain caters to fan service of Lolita variety.
 
To add my two cents

First of all I would say that I do agree with Neferpitou, I have definitely noticed a big increase in strong, fan servicey character in the last ten years(despite the fact that I was living in a cave of course) and fan service in general to be honest(or at least more blatant fan service). However I think rather it being a case of fan service characters becoming stronger, it could equally be the case that strong characters are becoming more fan servicey, which is probably more worrying.

I would also like to say that i completely disagree with ayase's opinion here. I don't think it's really any more positive to have all your strong and intelligent heroine characters portrayed as uber sexified, gravity defying, unrealistic, young objects of every mans wet dream, than it is having them all as ugly mingers. To be honest in some ways I would argue it's probably more detrimental to have them portrayed in a fan servicey way

I have thought about this many a time over the last couple years, and in some ways I find myself getting more annoyed at the stronger otherwise great characters being portrayed as totally unrealistic teenage wet dreams, and while I can't stand completely dull fanservice characters at least theres no hope for them at all, and they certainly aren't in any way something for young girls to strive for(as they are dull, boring and brainless). But when you have an anime give thier most powerful and interesting characters size triple j breasts or skirts that are surley too short for anyone other than a strpper which are always shoved in your face, I find myself genuniely disappointed. These strong female leads are no doubt what many young Japanese(and maybe western) girl's look up to and idolize, and the truth is that none of them look like nor will they ever look anything like these physically impossible heroine's. This can lead to having low self esteem and not fully appreciating ones own body. This is not what young girls need, what we need more of are realistic, relatable and unconventional heroines/heros. And it would also be nice if we could reinforce the fact that yes you can be a intelligent, strong, powerful and talented lady wthout being a bonafide wet dream, smoker of a woman as well.

I do accept ayases point that in animation it is harder to represent a average looking person. But it's hardly impossible, and it's not so much that the characters are pretty that I have a problem with, it's the reams of impossibly sized breasts, impossibly skinny women, outfits that are more siutable for strippers, questionable camera angles, questionable jokes and nearly identical looking females that I have a problem with.

I'm not saying that Japanese animation/manga are the only culprits of this at all. Pretty much most media around the world are guilty of the same crimes. For example try to see how many childrens books you can find which focus on the stories of variously disabled children, and unfortunately even in this day and age there aren't ever nearly enough. And if you look at the old comic book heroines you can pretty much only find wonder woman and her clones(which are hardly relatable for the many ethnically diverse children living in the USA). However you have to admit anime does tend to take things to their extremes, which I feel recent anime is currently doing for fanservice,unrealistically proportioned dream girls and so on. Maybe it's always been this bad but I certainly don't recall it being. I mean say what you say about DBZ and I'm sure it probably had plenty of questionable humour in it, but all it's various strong, inteligent females were at least sightly more realistically proportioned and without so many worrying camera angles(and I'd say videl is an example of a pretty normal looking young woman). But I just get the feeling that if DBZ was written by many modern day manga authors it would have a good percentage more breast, provocative clothing in it ect,ect.

I was really disappointed back in the days when I watched a bit of Naruto, when tsunade is revealed, this super legendary, strongest ninja whom every young ninja looks up to, and oh yeah of course she's also got a legendary pair of breasts as well, nice! Come on deary you coudn't even jump over a 1 foot high wall with a pair that big. More mature shows are also just as bad at giving in to this typical modern anime female character look, take SAC(which in nearly every other regard was ace), I was quite disappointed that they swapped the more reasonably shaped and more interesting looking Matoko from the orginal oshii film, with basically a barbie doll-ised version of her. You could say it's more in line with Shirow's original, but then that mans put out so much shite I could care less.

Now it may seem like I'm suggesting all anime should steer clear of anything sexy/risque. But really it's quite the opposite, sexiness is good, and if you think a pair big breasts suit a certain character by all means I support it. But what I don't like is when I feel so many anime/manga are just throwing these things in for no real reason other than to just get some extra easy money and ride the bandwagon without thinking about it's consequences. We need more balance

Now I think anyone who has just read this mini essay will now be aware of at least one crucial thing.... I have way too much time on my hands(and I like writing things in brackets).

Peace and love ya'll
 
vashdaman said:
I would also like to say that i completely disagree with ayase's opinion here. I don't think it's really any more positive to have all your strong and intelligent heroine characters portrayed as uber sexified, gravity defying, unrealistic, young objects of every mans wet dream, than it is having them all as ugly mingers.
And I would like people to stop twisting my words, or at the very least having hold of the wrong end of the stick. Let's see if I can sum up how people's brains work in a way everyone can understand:

Ugly = Do Not Want
Sexy = Do Want

Strong Woman + Ugly = Do Not Want Strong Women
Stong Woman + Sexy = Do Want Strong Women

This is why I'm in favour of strong female characters not being unattractive. Not "uber sexified wank fantasies" or whatever you want to call them, just marginally attractive. As I said earlier, I now realise that my idea of fanservice probably differs from a lot of people's. To me it was much less obvious stuff; just the odd bit of cheekiness rather than belting you over the head with enormous breasts.

I haven't watched any of these crap modern shows filled with over the top fanservice, so I can't really comment on them (other than to surmise that I'd probably hate them).
 
What I find odd when you originally posted, and still do, is that you don't want your characters to be attractive - when that is one of the most subjective and opinion-denominated ideas out there. There's nothing wrong with wanting your characters to be attractive, I don't personally consider someone from Clannad, Index or whatever else ilmaestro is watching attractive, but then, does that mean they are "ugly" characters? I could probably argue the cast of Shana or a Key adaptation are ugly in my opinion now, but that doesn't objectively mean they are such characters.

The characters in House of Five Leaves aren't... typical, but again, there's a charm to it. I wouldn't call them ugly. I wouldn't call them attractive either though.

vashdaman, I'm a Naruto apologist, but I wouldn't say that's a defining feature of her character. Not if I hadn't just googled right now anyway. She ain't no Orihime. (And even then, the design itself isn't... that striking).
 
Neferpitou said:
The four example I gave were from series either from 2000 or still running in that era. I can't think of many fan service strong heroines in 80's and 90's than compared to many shows in 2000's onwards that have strong fan service characters:

Queen Blade
Ikkitōsen
The Sacred Blacksmith
High School of the Dead
Dragonaut
Gunslinger Girl

NegimaFairy Tail
Tenjho Tenge
Birdy the Mighty

Desert Punk
Burst Angel
Daphne In The Brilliant Blue
Black Lagoon

My-HIME
Gurren Lagann

All those in green i have, all those in red i will have, all those in brown will be collected from everyone in the country and burned if i should ever come to power.


Thank you for your time :)
 
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