st_owly (witch)
Time-Traveller
Another interesting episode. I was never quite sure if the girls who ended up taking Lain to the club were genuinely trying to be nice, or mocking her. The personality disorder theory is quite plausible, I believe.
Simulwatch - serial experiments lain
- Thread starter teonzo
- Start date
Animefreak17
Godhand
seen lain episode 3
at GolGotha request il reply,
ii think everyone in lains family isn't real, because the police called her house and they didn't answer, also she checked up to see if anyone was back and they wasn't til she got up in the morning, also lains friend * cant remember her name* says its funny how they reacted to the incident, im guessing the world of lain is something like the matrix, reprogramming people and how things work.
at GolGotha request il reply,
ii think everyone in lains family isn't real, because the police called her house and they didn't answer, also she checked up to see if anyone was back and they wasn't til she got up in the morning, also lains friend * cant remember her name* says its funny how they reacted to the incident, im guessing the world of lain is something like the matrix, reprogramming people and how things work.
Last edited by a moderator:
ilmaestro
State Alchemist
Episode 3 cleared up some of the more confidant speculations we'd been making (the existence of something close to a fully realized other world within the Wired, Lain's multiple personalities) but I think only added to the confusion of exactly which world and which personalities we are seeing at any one time.
The comments from Arisu about the girls' reaction to the shooting could prove key, I think. If she is, for some reason, extra-specially aware (subconsciously) of the false nature of the "reality" inside the Wired, it's possible that far more of what we are seeing is taking place there than is first apparent. This would tally in with the inconsistencies relating to whether Lain's parents are at home and such.
I feel like we're close to cracking the first stage of the mysteries presented so far in the show, but that will surely only lead further down the oft-cited rabbit hole. Specifically, what is so special about Lain that requires all the surveillance she is under.
The comments from Arisu about the girls' reaction to the shooting could prove key, I think. If she is, for some reason, extra-specially aware (subconsciously) of the false nature of the "reality" inside the Wired, it's possible that far more of what we are seeing is taking place there than is first apparent. This would tally in with the inconsistencies relating to whether Lain's parents are at home and such.
I feel like we're close to cracking the first stage of the mysteries presented so far in the show, but that will surely only lead further down the oft-cited rabbit hole. Specifically, what is so special about Lain that requires all the surveillance she is under.
Man, I like this idea too. Rather than Lain herself having multiple personalities, she is an avatar that you can "borrow" to experience the Wired from a new perspective?Professor Irony said:
Last edited by a moderator:
Genkina Hito
映画男！！！
Episode 3 – Psyche
It’s becoming murkier. This episode we see the aftermath of the shooting at the club and Lain’s return home and to school and Cyberia.
I like Professor Irony’s suggestion that Lain is an avatar on the Wired. The voices, the way her vision and her sense of time warp, her growing mood changes/split personality and the way she and the kids can get into Cyberia so easily are making me come around to the notion that the Lain we are seeing is an avatar. Either that or she is already online and she is not aware of it.
I cannot commit to any one theory. I’m intrigued by all of the possibilities.
It’s a testament to the power of the direction of the anime that there’s a four minute sequence where not a whole lot happens on screen and the only sound is a single plaintive note played on a piano with a synthesiser to accompany it but I felt totally creeped out. One of the reasons was the utter isolation I felt Lain experienced and that the only line of dialogue was between Lain’s new Navi which is hardly healthy… She is absolutely totally alone.
I want the wild Lain – Yeah kid, after seeing that aggression I think you may want to pass.
Roll on episode 4
It’s becoming murkier. This episode we see the aftermath of the shooting at the club and Lain’s return home and to school and Cyberia.
I like Professor Irony’s suggestion that Lain is an avatar on the Wired. The voices, the way her vision and her sense of time warp, her growing mood changes/split personality and the way she and the kids can get into Cyberia so easily are making me come around to the notion that the Lain we are seeing is an avatar. Either that or she is already online and she is not aware of it.
I cannot commit to any one theory. I’m intrigued by all of the possibilities.
It’s a testament to the power of the direction of the anime that there’s a four minute sequence where not a whole lot happens on screen and the only sound is a single plaintive note played on a piano with a synthesiser to accompany it but I felt totally creeped out. One of the reasons was the utter isolation I felt Lain experienced and that the only line of dialogue was between Lain’s new Navi which is hardly healthy… She is absolutely totally alone.
I want the wild Lain – Yeah kid, after seeing that aggression I think you may want to pass.
Roll on episode 4
Last edited by a moderator:
Genkina Hito
映画男！！！
Episode 4 Religion
Gotcha. What a great opening. We begin by witnessing a terrifying chase and hearing the girls discuss the rise in suicides. Lain is more lively and confident in this episode, smiling, engaging others in conversations and saying more than one word. She is so lively that she deals directly with those two guys (who I shall call moderators from now on) and it worries her family and friend Arisu.
Scratch what I saw about liking the Prof’s thoughts about a split personality and Lain being an avatar. I’m going back to the theory that Lain is part of the wired/at the centre of it and she just doesn’t know it yet. I think her father has been monitoring her and his experiment is out of control. Lain laughs off his warnings about cofusing reality and the wired. She has an innate skill for controlling it and it is blossoming and amused he is not. Interesting that he makes a comment comparing civilian and military NAVI. Probably a red-herring but it adds to the experiment angle.
The mention of nanotechnology in episode two and the ubiquitous nature of the wired explains why people are affected by visions in reality and episode four really goes to town showing us what it is like... It turns out it’s like Doom but instead of demons we get 怖い 少女. The world of the Wired is creeping everywhere and Lain is going to discover just how plugged in and in control she is.
Gotcha. What a great opening. We begin by witnessing a terrifying chase and hearing the girls discuss the rise in suicides. Lain is more lively and confident in this episode, smiling, engaging others in conversations and saying more than one word. She is so lively that she deals directly with those two guys (who I shall call moderators from now on) and it worries her family and friend Arisu.
Scratch what I saw about liking the Prof’s thoughts about a split personality and Lain being an avatar. I’m going back to the theory that Lain is part of the wired/at the centre of it and she just doesn’t know it yet. I think her father has been monitoring her and his experiment is out of control. Lain laughs off his warnings about cofusing reality and the wired. She has an innate skill for controlling it and it is blossoming and amused he is not. Interesting that he makes a comment comparing civilian and military NAVI. Probably a red-herring but it adds to the experiment angle.
The mention of nanotechnology in episode two and the ubiquitous nature of the wired explains why people are affected by visions in reality and episode four really goes to town showing us what it is like... It turns out it’s like Doom but instead of demons we get 怖い 少女. The world of the Wired is creeping everywhere and Lain is going to discover just how plugged in and in control she is.
Last edited by a moderator:
Still one ep behind, I'll watch 4 later on today. Ep3 was probably the most interesting so far though, so I'll add some brief thoughts.
It's definitely interesting that Arisu is (apparently) the most perceptive of Lain's friends. The presence of 'Alice', along with recurring imagery of Lain descending into Cyberia (I don't think we've seen her climbing the stairs yet?), confronted by the winding corridor of the train and now doodling that vortex like image that seems to represent the Wired gives me little doubt that there's an Alice in Wonderland motif going on here, even if 'Alice' isn't the main character.
The confrontation between the surveillance men and Lain's sister was quite alarming (note that their mother seems to ignore her too), but I probably shouldn't speculate on that too much until I've seen ep4. I did like that their laser-pointer goggles recall the red-dot aiming device used by the gunman in ep2 though.
Yeah, I was really struck by that scene too. I think the only thing that would have improved it for me would have been if, after Lain gets up from her Navi, she had checked her parents room before the lounge. It's a small change, but it would have amused me if that scene had been the mirror image of the one before it.
Also her parents sleep in separate beds. Hmm.
ilmaestro said:
It's definitely interesting that Arisu is (apparently) the most perceptive of Lain's friends. The presence of 'Alice', along with recurring imagery of Lain descending into Cyberia (I don't think we've seen her climbing the stairs yet?), confronted by the winding corridor of the train and now doodling that vortex like image that seems to represent the Wired gives me little doubt that there's an Alice in Wonderland motif going on here, even if 'Alice' isn't the main character.
The confrontation between the surveillance men and Lain's sister was quite alarming (note that their mother seems to ignore her too), but I probably shouldn't speculate on that too much until I've seen ep4. I did like that their laser-pointer goggles recall the red-dot aiming device used by the gunman in ep2 though.
Genkina Hito said:
Yeah, I was really struck by that scene too. I think the only thing that would have improved it for me would have been if, after Lain gets up from her Navi, she had checked her parents room before the lounge. It's a small change, but it would have amused me if that scene had been the mirror image of the one before it.
Also her parents sleep in separate beds. Hmm.
Last edited by a moderator:
Animefreak17
Godhand
I swear I have no idea what's going on anymore, I Just can't understand, what ever I'l just watch it as it comes
Finally caught up on ep4. Oh boy.
They've certainly removed all doubt that
, but I was a little surprised thatthe mother appears to be in on it too. Maki seems oblivious to everything, perhaps overly so. The scene with her looking over her shoulder before drinking something straight from the fridge was amusing, but it seems like a strange callback to her confrontation with the surveillance men.
Lain's personality is getting progressively stranger too. Admittedly, it's not explicit exactly how much time has passed in the series so far, but it seems jarring to see her suddenly so much more active all the time. In the early episodes, I thought she was like an empty vessel, so it makes me wonder if her newfound connection with the wired is slowly filling her with its collective conscious. It might explain her apparent omnipresence.
I'll try and write some more tomorrow.
They've certainly removed all doubt that
Lain's father knows more than he's letting on[color=[/color]
Lain's personality is getting progressively stranger too. Admittedly, it's not explicit exactly how much time has passed in the series so far, but it seems jarring to see her suddenly so much more active all the time. In the early episodes, I thought she was like an empty vessel, so it makes me wonder if her newfound connection with the wired is slowly filling her with its collective conscious. It might explain her apparent omnipresence.
I'll try and write some more tomorrow.
Last edited by a moderator:
I had not much time in the past days to be in schedule, now I've caught up.
Episode 3 - Psyche
I would say this episode, as the previous one, is a bit interlocutory: it serves to set-up the world of this series and we are still in the dark. As you pointed out there are various great scenes nonetheless.
Some more things to consider/discuss:
- Lain receives one of the most advanced and sought after pieces of technology. Is it normal to get such a costly gift by an unknown? For her schoolmates seem so, since they don't talk about what it is and don't wonder who put it in Lain's personal box.
- Lain is pretty naive: she receives the Psyche, does not question who gave it to her and if it safe to use, then she innocently asks to other unknown children what it is, showing a lot of unfounded trust (infos received by unknown people are hardly reliable, walking with the Psyche on her hand and no fear of it being stolen...).
- in the world of this anime children know about computers much more than people of my generation knew about Lego. When policemen interrogate a girl that just witnessed homicides and a suicide they just care about informations (without calling a psychologist to help her facing that tragedy) and then accompany her home (without checking if she is entering the house or not).
- up till know Lain's father always urged her to learn more about computers, but when he sees the Psyche then he drastically changes his mood.
- there are no deaths in this episode.
- to depict Lain's confusion the creators chose her to draw some scribble. Peculiar things are that it's continuous and round.
Episode 4 - Religion
Now things are starting to define and move. Lain finds a passion for technology and the Wired, she starts to laugh and talk more, showing more resolution. Her family members changed their behaviour towards her. The guys in the black suits don't seem so friendly.
Besides all the story, in this episodes we start to see much more references (inside and outside the show) and interesting little details:
- when Lain says bye to her schoolmates and goes home, she is depicted disappearing in the fog. This is a connection to an analogue scene in the first episode, where Lain was in the foreground of some railroads disappearing in the fog.
- in a world where technology is everywhere, in a club where technology is the main theme, they still play vinyl.
- we see a close-up of a part of the case of Lain's new Navi, with written "Hal Power 5000" (obvious reference to 2001).
- in the scene where the boy shoots to the girl in the game, we don't see the weapon, we always see the flash of each shot, we see only some cartridges falling down (not one for every shot).
Finally, if we were hoping that this episode could put some light on the world of this anime, then the last scene (with the Navi saying "intruder interrupting") opens much more questions.
Teo
Episode 3 - Psyche
I would say this episode, as the previous one, is a bit interlocutory: it serves to set-up the world of this series and we are still in the dark. As you pointed out there are various great scenes nonetheless.
Some more things to consider/discuss:
- Lain receives one of the most advanced and sought after pieces of technology. Is it normal to get such a costly gift by an unknown? For her schoolmates seem so, since they don't talk about what it is and don't wonder who put it in Lain's personal box.
- Lain is pretty naive: she receives the Psyche, does not question who gave it to her and if it safe to use, then she innocently asks to other unknown children what it is, showing a lot of unfounded trust (infos received by unknown people are hardly reliable, walking with the Psyche on her hand and no fear of it being stolen...).
- in the world of this anime children know about computers much more than people of my generation knew about Lego. When policemen interrogate a girl that just witnessed homicides and a suicide they just care about informations (without calling a psychologist to help her facing that tragedy) and then accompany her home (without checking if she is entering the house or not).
- up till know Lain's father always urged her to learn more about computers, but when he sees the Psyche then he drastically changes his mood.
- there are no deaths in this episode.
- to depict Lain's confusion the creators chose her to draw some scribble. Peculiar things are that it's continuous and round.
Episode 4 - Religion
Now things are starting to define and move. Lain finds a passion for technology and the Wired, she starts to laugh and talk more, showing more resolution. Her family members changed their behaviour towards her. The guys in the black suits don't seem so friendly.
Besides all the story, in this episodes we start to see much more references (inside and outside the show) and interesting little details:
- when Lain says bye to her schoolmates and goes home, she is depicted disappearing in the fog. This is a connection to an analogue scene in the first episode, where Lain was in the foreground of some railroads disappearing in the fog.
- in a world where technology is everywhere, in a club where technology is the main theme, they still play vinyl.
- we see a close-up of a part of the case of Lain's new Navi, with written "Hal Power 5000" (obvious reference to 2001).
- in the scene where the boy shoots to the girl in the game, we don't see the weapon, we always see the flash of each shot, we see only some cartridges falling down (not one for every shot).
Finally, if we were hoping that this episode could put some light on the world of this anime, then the last scene (with the Navi saying "intruder interrupting") opens much more questions.
Teo
Last edited by a moderator:
Professor Irony said:
Thanks for these details, never knew it was called 'Dutch Angle', learning new things is always good!
Do you think the director chose to focus on different techniques for each episode? I'm quite ignorant about filming techniques, but it seems like each episode is based on different peculiarities.
Professor Irony said:
That's a thing that surprised me when I watched this series for the first time. Now that you reached episode 4 you should have seen some other similar stuff.
In the world of this anime children are treated like adults, almost left by themselves. Besides Lain, in the first 4 episodes we haven't seen children/teenagers relating with adults. Besides the Cyberia admittance, we see children dealing with a lot of stuff that "should" be considered "better" for adults. It seems like people are considered mature and responsible after turning 8 or 10.
I suppose this choice was made for two reasons. First one, we (the audience in 1998) see a world that is almost alien, with that overuse (relatively to 1998) of technology and the children dealing with it much better than all young adults in 1998. This lead to feel empathy for Lain: we feel that world as alien, she is the alien in that world (in the sense that she is not able to deal with it like her mates do). This empathy is meant as the gateway to this show for "non 1998 geek" watchers. Second one, it's a criticism on how technology was/is changing society in relation to children and teenagers: is it right to "loose you innocence" sooner and sooner? Does this also reflect on the sense of responsibility? Are teenagers feeling responsible sooner or later?
Teo
Professor Irony said:
Last time I read Alice in Wonderland was something like 25 years ago, so my memories are blurred. But there are definetely various connections between this series and that book. I suppose it will be interesting to discuss about these after the end of the simulwatch.
Teo
ilmaestro
State Alchemist
To further the point referenced above, Lain is specifically referred to as an adult who would have grown out of playing kids games by the DJ in Cyberia.
Episode 4 - OK, after what I thought was a relatively helpful episode 3, this episode definitely made me rethink a lot of things. Whilst Lain does still seem to be different things to different people (the DJ in Cyberia is the main statistical outlier though, or perhaps the Lain persona that frequents the club, as the Lain that he "knows" is the least like the rest of her possible personae), she is becoming increasingly different even within the day to day situations we have seen her. Actually talking to the girls in her group of friends (the ones other than Arisu) is pretty weird, and her developing understanding of the Navi and expanding network of contacts within the Wired is both explosive and difficult to explain from the point of view of who we "knew" her to be.
Someone mentioned earlier that between the way Lain's parents treat her and the "personality" aspects she has shown, she could be a prototype android of some sort, possibly designed to interact in some specific ways with the Wired. After this episode you could certainly say she gives off the air of maybe being a learning AI, and the way she somehow manipulated the electronic visor the MIB was wearing is a further suggestion that she is either not entirely human or is somehow continually connected to the Wired (presuming that the MIB and their surveillance equipment also is).
Lain's Father's "warning" was interesting - it goes maybe a little against the previous speculation in this post, unless he is deliberately trying to hide something from Lain but can't be too forceful about it. I'd guess he thinks it's possible that the Psyche processor will allow Lain to discover whatever it is that he is up to. What was more interesting was that it was seemingly given to the viewer as much as Lain, and again from that point of view could be seen as a line deliberately designed to mislead us as to what is actually "real" in the show, or at least to make us further question our views on that.
The other big discussion point of the episode was the idea of two virtual worlds leaking into each other - this was specifically shown as two video games, but the parallels between that and what might be happening between the Wired and the "real" world as observed through Lain are too big to ignore. This also very clearly links into Lain's Father's warning, as it provides direct evidence that "The body cannot live without the mind" (to quote Laurence Fishburne). We can assume from Chisa's ascension into the Wired that the reverse is not true, of course.
I already feel like I need to rewatch this first third of the show, or at least that I should have been taking notes.
Episode 4 - OK, after what I thought was a relatively helpful episode 3, this episode definitely made me rethink a lot of things. Whilst Lain does still seem to be different things to different people (the DJ in Cyberia is the main statistical outlier though, or perhaps the Lain persona that frequents the club, as the Lain that he "knows" is the least like the rest of her possible personae), she is becoming increasingly different even within the day to day situations we have seen her. Actually talking to the girls in her group of friends (the ones other than Arisu) is pretty weird, and her developing understanding of the Navi and expanding network of contacts within the Wired is both explosive and difficult to explain from the point of view of who we "knew" her to be.
Someone mentioned earlier that between the way Lain's parents treat her and the "personality" aspects she has shown, she could be a prototype android of some sort, possibly designed to interact in some specific ways with the Wired. After this episode you could certainly say she gives off the air of maybe being a learning AI, and the way she somehow manipulated the electronic visor the MIB was wearing is a further suggestion that she is either not entirely human or is somehow continually connected to the Wired (presuming that the MIB and their surveillance equipment also is).
Lain's Father's "warning" was interesting - it goes maybe a little against the previous speculation in this post, unless he is deliberately trying to hide something from Lain but can't be too forceful about it. I'd guess he thinks it's possible that the Psyche processor will allow Lain to discover whatever it is that he is up to. What was more interesting was that it was seemingly given to the viewer as much as Lain, and again from that point of view could be seen as a line deliberately designed to mislead us as to what is actually "real" in the show, or at least to make us further question our views on that.
The other big discussion point of the episode was the idea of two virtual worlds leaking into each other - this was specifically shown as two video games, but the parallels between that and what might be happening between the Wired and the "real" world as observed through Lain are too big to ignore. This also very clearly links into Lain's Father's warning, as it provides direct evidence that "The body cannot live without the mind" (to quote Laurence Fishburne). We can assume from Chisa's ascension into the Wired that the reverse is not true, of course.
I already feel like I need to rewatch this first third of the show, or at least that I should have been taking notes.
Genkina Hito
映画男！！！
Layer 5: Distortion
Okay, I’m holding on to my original theory that Lain is an android and her father is moderating her progress (this last point is fuzzy since he seems to be restricting, defied and guided to varying degrees which suggest he could be monitoring something far more powerful or he’s not actually moderating anything). There are many scenes here that look like the teaching of an AI – Lain speaking to the doll/parents - and if we consider the blossoming of Lain’s character and the way her perception of time, space… heck, everything is altered by outside forces, it seems to make sense that she’s connected to the Wired and her systems are slowly waking up. Someone outside activating dormant systems?
Again there are many scenes where the family do not connect. Lain’s sister’s response to her being out on the street in Shibuya and her earlier cold behaviour (alongside that of her mother) suggested that she is at the very least an uncaring person (who views Lain not as a person), here she is seen as pretty horrible. She isn’t innocent. Did we see her in a love hotel earlier? Her fate at the end of the episode was pretty disturbing? Did Lain grab her perception in Shibuya and detach her soul from her body? Was it her soul? Did Lain do it on purpose to teach her a lesson?
These silvery spirit things crop up again. There is a 2001 Kiyoshi Kurosawa film called Pulse where ghosts invade reality through the internet. Is Lain some sort of Messiah? With the spread of the Wired, why can’t she begin to alter reality? Is Lain set to spark something like this where she unleashes ghosts/AI from the Wired?
A lot of rambling but the anime is so darn interesting. The sequence involving the sister’s wavering perception and the disjointed narrative proved very intriguing. I have started watching each episode twice now because there is a lot to take in.
Okay, I’m holding on to my original theory that Lain is an android and her father is moderating her progress (this last point is fuzzy since he seems to be restricting, defied and guided to varying degrees which suggest he could be monitoring something far more powerful or he’s not actually moderating anything). There are many scenes here that look like the teaching of an AI – Lain speaking to the doll/parents - and if we consider the blossoming of Lain’s character and the way her perception of time, space… heck, everything is altered by outside forces, it seems to make sense that she’s connected to the Wired and her systems are slowly waking up. Someone outside activating dormant systems?
Again there are many scenes where the family do not connect. Lain’s sister’s response to her being out on the street in Shibuya and her earlier cold behaviour (alongside that of her mother) suggested that she is at the very least an uncaring person (who views Lain not as a person), here she is seen as pretty horrible. She isn’t innocent. Did we see her in a love hotel earlier? Her fate at the end of the episode was pretty disturbing? Did Lain grab her perception in Shibuya and detach her soul from her body? Was it her soul? Did Lain do it on purpose to teach her a lesson?
These silvery spirit things crop up again. There is a 2001 Kiyoshi Kurosawa film called Pulse where ghosts invade reality through the internet. Is Lain some sort of Messiah? With the spread of the Wired, why can’t she begin to alter reality? Is Lain set to spark something like this where she unleashes ghosts/AI from the Wired?
A lot of rambling but the anime is so darn interesting. The sequence involving the sister’s wavering perception and the disjointed narrative proved very intriguing. I have started watching each episode twice now because there is a lot to take in.
Last edited by a moderator:
Episode 5 - Distortion
This episode is clearly meant to kick the audience in the head. The previous episode gave some infos and answers, then everything gets blurred with this one, just to enhance the sense of uneasiness and confusion.
We left Lain being more active, now she's back looking shy and introvert. Is it only an appearance?
In the previous episodes the family members treated Lain with superiority and detachment, now they seem humbled and confused. What are they feeling?
While "distortion" is a really good word to describe this episode, I think that "projection" would have been even better. Everyone (?) is projected in another state of being. There is some talk about projections of various planes of existence. Are we watching reality in this episode? Or some piece of reality? Or no reality at all? What is reality?
An interesting detail: we see in Arisu's Navi that she uses the name Alice.
Teo
This episode is clearly meant to kick the audience in the head. The previous episode gave some infos and answers, then everything gets blurred with this one, just to enhance the sense of uneasiness and confusion.
We left Lain being more active, now she's back looking shy and introvert. Is it only an appearance?
In the previous episodes the family members treated Lain with superiority and detachment, now they seem humbled and confused. What are they feeling?
While "distortion" is a really good word to describe this episode, I think that "projection" would have been even better. Everyone (?) is projected in another state of being. There is some talk about projections of various planes of existence. Are we watching reality in this episode? Or some piece of reality? Or no reality at all? What is reality?
An interesting detail: we see in Arisu's Navi that she uses the name Alice.
Teo