Religion: The Enemy of Reason?

[Lin]

Most atheists are massively intolerant of even the slightest hint of religion, making them just as bad as the people they purport to be so against. It's a 'war' in which neither side is right, both rage on endlessly, the majority of whom are completely ignorant of the other side's standing point; it's like kids in the playground sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LAA LAA LAA, I'M NOT LISTENING!".

And really atheism is, in actuality, the rejection of theism. We're all mixing it up with 'irreligion' which is often the downright hostility towards religion.

It comes down the fact that people can believe in whatever the hell they damn want, and blaming 'religion' for the ills of the world is a quick, easy target. People are the cause of the ills of the world, it would have happened regardless of religious influence.

 

[Espy]

Well, I for one hate religious debates. They always end up the same way - it seems to me that it's the anti-religious people are stubborn and intolerant, while the others are shot down with questions. But maybe that's just my personal experience with friends.

Are you seriously calling atheists intolerant from a Christian perspective? Are you forgetting that Christianity is the primary driving force for intolerance today? Christians are remarkably intolerant of the non-faithful (the UK's biggest Catholic, Cardinal Murphy, recently stated that Satan was awaiting atheists). Christians are intolerant of women who want a choice in the extremely sensitive matter of abortion. Most obviously, they are revolting offensive and mean-spirited about perfectly human gay people. Christianity was used to justify segregation (read: discrimination against black people) in the US for the longest time, too. So, you and any other Christian is in no place to accuse anyone else of being intolerant.

I was talking from my own experience about debates. As I stated. The above post is a perect example of taking more extreme Christians and tarring all Christians with their brush. I never said Christianity was misused, but for most of those points I can prove with Christianity 101 why it was not Christian to do these things. For the record, I could easily point to plenty Bible verses about practising tolerance.

but stop reading random pick-a-page Bible excerpt until you read something out of context that sounds nasty enough

That is exactly what Christians do in relation to homosexuality and you know it is.

Um... no. I don't really know how else to react to that as it just seems baseless. As a Christian I don't deny Christianity claims that homosexuality is a sin (ooh, controversial). But as a Christian I don't deny that I haven't done anything just as bad, if not worse than it, and that to call homosexuals evil and sinful would be hypocritcial. And I think you'll find that is exactly what the Bible says about it.

A set of laws and traditions give them guides to live how they desire.

Christianity is actually the exact opposite of that =)

Not in practice.

Well gee, I don't know. I would sure call myself a practising Christian and I would certainly say that's how it works.

If you're going to try and debate, please elaborate on your points. Right now it sounds like you're just trying to be a intentionally disrespectful smartass. Which brings me right back to my original point that you're so intent on completely misreading as an excuse to rant.

Speaking of my original point, I hate religious debates. I originally intended to give my two cents, but I'm just going to stop posting if I begin to see any hint of dagger throwing.

 

[CitizenGeek]

People are the cause of the ills of the world, it would have happened regardless of religious influence.

Of course, but religion didn't make matters any better.

Most atheists are massively intolerant of even the slightest hint of religion

That is grossly misleading. The vast, vast majority of atheists are perfectly okay with religion once it stays in it's place. It's when religion starts attacking and damaging the institutions of science, politics and general secularism that atheists (and people with any sense) start to object and Western Europe is a much, much better place because of the people who said "No" to religion as it tried to dictate on matters of science, politics and morality.

The above post is a perect example of taking more extreme Christians and tarring all Christians with their brush.

It's most certainly not just a tiny fringe group of fundamentalist Christians that are actively hostile, it's very definitely the majority. I don't deny that there are Christians that actually remain loyal to the Bible's teachings of compassion and tolerance, but they're definitely in the minority.

For the record, I could easily point to plenty Bible verses about practising tolerance.

And I could point to just as many that promote intolerance (the verses on other religions, the verses on women, on race, on homosexuality etc.). Chrisitans say they live their lives by the Bible, but is this not impossible given the number of tremendous contradictions throughout it's pages?

As a Christian I don't deny Christianity claims that homosexuality is a sin (ooh, controversial). But as a Christian I don't deny that I haven't done anything just as bad, if not worse than it, and that to call homosexuals evil and sinful would be hypocritcial. And I think you'll find that is exactly what the Bible says about it.

You've just implied that homosexuality is bad, and that you've done things that are "just as bad" ... eh, do you now see the corrupting effect of religion?

Also, please don't demean the fact that 'homosexuality as a sin' is a controversial idea. It's very important that it stays that way.

If you're going to try and debate, please elaborate on your points. Right now it sounds like you're just trying to be a intentionally disrespectful smartass. Which brings me right back to my original point that you're so intent on completely misreading as an excuse to rant.

That word, "disrespect", brings me to another point. Why is it so out-of-order to criticise someone's religious beliefs? If I were to criticise your political beliefs, or your ideas on morality or your taste in music, that wouldn't be branded as "disrespect", but if I do so about your religion, I'm called "disrespectful". Why is religion treated in this way? (That's a general question, not just aimed at Espy).

 

[Espy]

Thought you'd pick up on the disrespectful thing. It was a test of sorts.

If you measure your Christians by the ones that get on the news, yes, the sensible ones are in the minority. But if you get a real-world view, you'd find it's not so much. Being a Christian, I obviously know a lot of Christians. And I wouldn't classify one of them as you have described.

As for your point made about homosexuality, I suggest you read up on grace. Christianity isn't a condemning religion - it's about giving people a way out and living life to the full.

Aaand... I'm out. Arguing until I'm blue in the face isn't going to change anyone's mind, something I'm sure we all know. It's just a form of entertainment for some people, and I'm not going to reduce what is so incredibly important to me to that.

 

[Lin]

Lots of text.

I had a nice, long retort, filled with comments about 'empirical proof' and so on, but then I realised it's completely pointless.

I believe in what I want, I believe others should believe in what they want; you don't and that's that, so why should I try and argue otherwise?

 

[Liquid Skin]

Ok im going to admit that im too lazy to read through the text for the mo but ill present my opinion.

Yes, i agree that religion has been the cause of a LOT of bloodshed, a hellofalot in fact; but then again in the main this bloodshed has been caused by people either using the word in vain or grossly misinterpretating pieces of dogma. I wont try to pretend that some conflicts have been entirely down to it however, dodge around the subject all you like nearly ALL religions state at some point "I am the true God/Gods/Way" which inevitable leads to some....differences in opinion. But hey i've seen console fanboys and political parties get just as passionate about their views.

All in all i believe that the amount of conflicts which have stemmed purely from religion, totally and utterly i mean, is relatively small. Take the crusades for example, the quintissential example of "Religion is bad mannnn" The actual motive behind it was pretty much entirely economical. Yes the Christians and Muslims were pissed that they had lost Jeruslalem but underneath it all you find that they were really just as irked that they had lost an incredibly profitable city. I'd go into further detail (did my A-level cw on it) but i'd bore you all half to death!

True religion is corrupted by the normal human failings - lust, greed, jealousy, by people who wish to impose their will or reap the benefits quickly and with no accountability, by just saying "God told me to"

All in all religion is just another victim from the media, you never hear about the charitable christian who volunteers down the local special needs school or the muslim who has donated so much money to a hopsice. You only hear about the latest suicide bomber or "Christian" nutjob church swindling people for their money.

Oh and yes i do believe in God, i consider myself a Christian though certainly not a good example nor like the ones we seem to have here in this country.

 

[Kurogane]

Religion is ghey gai's LOL, let's eat marmite and play dinosaws instead.

 

[Arbalest]

Hmm, well with Religion, yes it does cause conflicts, but i think its because of the more extreme believers that it does so. Compared to years back, we don't have many extreme religious people as we used to, now we're more relaxed, like for example someone who is christian won't be bothered that a friend of theirs is Buddhist, say.

God, to me is an easy question. God is a man-made creation that people believe in for a sort of moral boost, from the God's of Greek Mythology to the God(s) of today. God isn't a physical entity of any kind, instead for those that believe in him, they tend to create an image of him that gives them a way to push forward or have a more positive outlook on life. In a sense, you could argue that, since there is this mental image of god that everyone who believe's in it creates, he does to an extend exist, but i don't know. The idea of god being a sort of moral boost feels a bit like the idea of luck. No doubt most of us have, or still do carry about some form of object that we thought was a lucky charm, bringing us luck when we need it most, God acts a bit like a lucky charm, the only difference really is that instead of carrying around a lucky charm, all you need to do is pray once a day.

 

[Gacha]

When it comes to trying to disprove god you have to ask why?, what are you trying to prove by showing he doesn't exist. You know he doesn't exist your cat knows he doesn't exist who believes he exists?, the guy who believes in god is that guy. How do you disprove that?
You can't because the only place God(or jehova according to the guys on my door step) is in the imagination the human mind the only place were anything can happen and reality does not matter.

 

[Ryo Chan]

Evangelion's philosophy is bang on in this case in my opinion

"God didn't create mankinds, on the contrary, it was mankind who created God"

And hence because we created God, it's our own fault for these holy wars and hence

"mankinds greatest enemy is mankind itself"

Hideaki Anno is a true visionary

 

[Chaz]

Most atheists are massively intolerant of even the slightest hint of religion, making them just as bad as the people they purport to be so against. It's a 'war' in which neither side is right, both rage on endlessly, the majority of whom are completely ignorant of the other side's standing point; it's like kids in the playground sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LAA LAA LAA, I'M NOT LISTENING!".

And really atheism is, in actuality, the rejection of theism. We're all mixing it up with 'irreligion' which is often the downright hostility towards religion.

Hey, woah, woah, woah! I used to be a christian, but as far as I'm concerned, God 'boned' himself with helping me. Up until college, I thought all I did was good and I was the innocent, well mannered little boy and naive to be exact.
Then, in one of my lessons in Criminal Psychology, I learnt, even as a baby, we all "Want" straight away. This is something that the sin greed comes from, so ultimately, we are always sinning. (that's the basics anyways.)

Now, I'm not going to be judged for my entire life based on a contradictive enforcer of "right/wrong" and then be in a position where I'm 'boned' myself.

I'm fine with others living with christianity, and other religions. But I'm irreligious because I see no value in it myself. Beside, destiny is not just made by fate, but fate is made by the merging and winding roads we all take. we meet and leave each other, help and hurt each other because of out consequences of action.

 

[Liquid Skin]

Hey, woah, woah, woah! I used to be a christian, but as far as I'm concerned, God 'boned' himself with helping me. Up until college, I thought all I did was good and I was the innocent, well mannered little boy and naive to be exact.

Now, I'm not going to be judged for my entire life based on a contradictive enforcer of "right/wrong" and then be in a position where I'm 'boned' myself.

K, im sure you didnt mean it in a offensive way but can you not talk about God "boning" himself all of the time, its kind of offensive....

I try to take a careful approach to everything i learn in school, to me its all just theories, (especially considering philosophy, history and english were my subjects lol)
Once we thought the sun orbited the earth, then that the world is flat and now the world is round. There are very few "facts" in this world and psychology is the worst culprit for constantly changing theories.
I know religion is just if not worse but scientists often take this higher ground on ideas just as preposterous as Noah's Ark; but then hide behind this "rational" visage which in reality is just a test of faith as believing in a higher power.

 

[Will-O'-The-Wisp]

I have my own reasons for not believing in God and that's simply because of reason like War, Genocide ect. Christians often rant on about how God "Loves us" as long as we "repent our sins" and that the reason God doesn't intervene is due to a human's free will, yet all the same, because of a human's free will, people are getting killed everyday, yet I see no help from him/her. Also, people are dying of diseases all the time (with Cancer being one of the most infamous) and yet good people stiiiiiiill get killed by these nasty little virus' ><.

 

[Tachi]

Evangelion's philosophy is bang on in this case in my opinion

"God didn't create mankinds, on the contrary, it was mankind who created God"

And hence because we created God, it's our own fault for these holy wars and hence

"mankinds greatest enemy is mankind itself"

Hideaki Anno is a true visionary

AGREED!

there's a quote from al einstein;
"I do not know with what weapons world war 3 will be fought, but world war 4 will be fought with sticks"

in other words these stupid religious wars are pathetic, and in the end we will end up killing ourselves so much and destroying this world that we probably will end up back to basics

 

[Rui]

I agree that monotheist/atheist isn't a clean split. Agnosticism is massively common in the geeky circles I've come into contact with, usually in people raised one way who came to doubt it for whatever reason so choose to be cautious about where they place their faith in future.

I'm personally an atheist, as in I actively believe there is no god. Not to be confused with those who think there might be, nor those who refuse to commit to any beliefs at all

I don't follow other atheists though (nor Dawkins); I don't see my beliefs as an organised system and since I now believe that gods/angels/prophets/whatever don't exist in the first place, I spend little time thinking about it all these days. I find Buddhist and Tao philosophy extremely interesting, but I'd not go as far as to say I'm a follower in any religious sense. It's more that reading about different ways to see the world is quite fun.

Background on my personal situation: I was raised a Roman Catholic, went to Roman Catholic schools, had only Roman Catholic friends and was dragged through the rituals like Holy Communion and weekly Mass. I studied Latin at school in special classes and even did extra Religious Studies on top. Part of my schooling included classes in altar serving during Mass and it was at one of those where suddenly, I questioned things at last.

I sort of sound like a hardcore cult member from that summary...eheheh...

Anyway, in real life I'm the kind of person who puts 100% into everything she does, and this was no exception, so once I learned the background behind altar serving I wanted to contribute too like the boys in my class. And I was told I could not. No apology - if anything I was expected to be ashamed for having asked. No way to change it, even if I said a thousand Hail Marys every day. It was just flat out Forbidden.

Now, I'm perhaps a little stupider than most, but I really struggled to understand why possessing differently shaped genitals had anything whatsoever to do with my rights at that age. I have a relative who is a nun, so I knew women could live childless; that couldn't be the sum of it. Why was I different? It was the first time I questioned what I'd been spoonfed, and not the last.

I am aware that not all Christianity follows the same traditions as Catholicism as it's definitely one of the more strict of the branches. But once I'd realised it didn't work for me, it led to other questions with no satisfactory answers.I'd been told since birth that I had this belief in God within me but it suddenly rang false. So that was that, and before I knew it I was an atheist with a firm belief set of my own, discovered by me without overt influence from my surroundings for once.

Incidentally my partner is an agnostic and I don't feel the need to browbeat him into committing to one extreme or the other, so I won't be doing that here either. The key thing with all religion is balancing it with your respect for other human beings. I can be friends with Muslims, with Christians, with Invisible Pink Unicorn devotees, no problem. But I can't be friends with a bully no matter what fancy name they use as an excuse. People who blow other people up in the name of a god are awful, but to expand that to include all people who rely on their belief in a god to cope with life's problems is little better.

On homosexuality, I have no problems with homosexuals and see it as no different from preferring blonde partners or older partners or whatever. I don't like the majority of mainstream religions' treatment of gay people at all (usually blanket judgements that they're wrong/disgusting etc) and would rally against anyone who chose to let these attitudes affect anyone I knew outside their group. Most of those religious beliefs are probably rooted in, rather than fairness, the need for their followers to produce huge families to increase the religion's power, so that's why women are often relegated to being baby factories and anyone who deviates from the plan by refusing or by dating another of their gender is condemned. It seems more like a human corruption of the intent than something which fits into the self-professed kindness of the major religions.

Final comment! Once I was told in a serious conversation that, as a non-Christian, it was impossible for me to understand right from wrong. That always stuck with me as one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard anyone say. Thank goodness such nutcases are the minority

R

 

[Tachi]

now we all know the legend of Rui.

i agree with pretty much everything you've said.
coming from a strongly influenced catholic background to being independantly minded is impressive.

i believe everyone should have the right to choose if they believe something or not.
through much trail and error i've concluded in my own opinion that there is no "God" (note that is a personal opinion not a statement for fact)

 

[Chaz]

Hey, woah, woah, woah! I used to be a christian, but as far as I'm concerned, God 'boned' himself with helping me. Up until college, I thought all I did was good and I was the innocent, well mannered little boy and naive to be exact.

Now, I'm not going to be judged for my entire life based on a contradictive enforcer of "right/wrong" and then be in a position where I'm 'boned' myself.

K, im sure you didnt mean it in a offensive way but can you not talk about God "boning" himself all of the time, its kind of offensive....

I try to take a careful approach to everything i learn in school, to me its all just theories, (especially considering philosophy, history and english were my subjects lol)
Once we thought the sun orbited the earth, then that the world is flat and now the world is round. There are very few "facts" in this world and psychology is the worst culprit for constantly changing theories.
I know religion is just if not worse but scientists often take this higher ground on ideas just as preposterous as Noah's Ark; but then hide behind this "rational" visage which in reality is just a test of faith as believing in a higher power.

Sorry for the 'boning' comments, but I got that from Family Guy...
But I'm not going to appologies about me disliking God. As far as I'm concerned, I felt like I was betrayed. Whether he does exist or not isn't something I ponder. If he doesn't then I'm happy with that. If he does, then even if I'm standing at the gate to heaven, I refuse to believe I have to (whether it's as extreme as this or not) bow to this being.

But even though I hate this one thing, I don't hate the followers themselves. Heck, they MAY be right in the end (as is the possibility of other religions), but my soul belongs to me now. I will not be a sheep amongst sheperds.

As for the science approach, it's unlike religion where most things are written in stone and we have to refer to past note. If something is disproved, we replace the false theories with the more accurate ones. It's an evolutionary "religion" of its own. That's how I see it, so I'm more faith in that system.

 

[Liquid Skin]

Sorry for the 'boning' comments, but I got that from Family Guy...

As for the science approach, it's unlike religion where most things are written in stone and we have to refer to past note. If something is disproved, we replace the false theories with the more accurate ones. It's an evolutionary "religion" of its own. That's how I see it, so I'm more faith in that system.

No worries mate

And yeah, i do agree with you about the evolutionary process of science, i dont so much mind it when its like that, i just take an issue when you meet the cult of the scientist: people who just categorically refuse to accept that they could be mistaken. The Big Bang is a theory - a theory and yet some scientists talk as if its written in stone. With that said im just as clueless as to what started the world - and to be honest im not that bothered, why worry about something like that? Does it affect you personally?

Im not a Christian bogged down in dogma because yes, i have problems with its perception of homosexuality (as well as some other things) too. In my opinion the Bible is a moral guideline, call me a hypocrite if you want - we all are. Theres plenty of rules that those fundamentlists have dropped whilst sitting on ther high horse damning homosexuality (im sure i read somewhere that Christians are technically not allowed to eat meat....) .

Above all i hold the opinion that Chrisitanity is about love - not hate. I can see the practical reasons behind homosexuality being outlawed back then (high mortality rate, we need all the people we can get sort of thing) and with it being more lustful, just about sex etc, but not now, you're not doing anything wrong, you're not harming anyone so wheres the foul? Murder bad, adultery bad, lying bad - all clear on that but loving someone? No.

Anyways its a minefield once you start going down that route, thats my opnion but i certainly wont force it down your throats like some other "religious" people will.

I hate organised religon, all the ceremony, all the bullcrap about the priest having power over the congregation etc etc. Organised religion is the cause of wars - not religion.

 

[Chaz]

I hate organised religon, all the ceremony, all the bullcrap about the priest having power over the congregation etc etc. Organised religion is the cause of wars - not religion.

Hehe... For some reason, the only thing that popped up in my head when you said this was Organised Criminals. "That's a hate crime!" :lol:

I still think I was pretty lucky to not been baptised... I still feel like I have my individuality. Being baptised would feel like having a stamp on you saying "I belong to..."
Anyways, I think Christianity has had quite a bashing here, so I'll leave it alone.

 

[Rui]

I was baptised and confirmed (annoyingly) but I believe free will can kick in at any time so deny any claims the church may think it has on me. I don't think they'd want someone like me back anyway no matter how many empty their churches get!

Now just need to work out how to explain to my grandmother that her emotional request that I wear a cross at my wedding isn't going to work out. I think she's sort of missed the point of a civil marriage

R