Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water simulwatch

Professor Irony

Cursed Image
Moderator
Episode 17: Saga of Marie the Evil

marie.jpg

The energy in this shot is troubling. What is King even doing?

Other than that, I don't have much else to add. It's nice to see Hanson getting some character development though - even if he struck out with Electra, he clearly relishes the chance to be a mentor to Jean.

Episode 18

I think it's happened before, but the scene in the radar room got me wondering - @Neil.T can you shed any light on whether Electra's "It's. A. Secret!" tic is a Japanese pun? The way she counts on her fingers as she says it seems very specific.

Omake 4 - Ep16

Again, pretty spoilery, but this is by far and away the strangest one so far in terms of presentation. Puppet versions of King and Marie get a science lesson from a non-chibi Electra? Maybe it's referencing a kids' show of the time, but I got nothing...

omake4.jpg

 
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WMD

Hunter
Something I forgot to say yesterday was that the recap at the start of the 1st island episode had a really good moment in it. The recap was longer than usual and gave something of a summary of the series as a whole upto that point but within it, the discovery that Nemo is Nadias father comes up and it cuts to the moment where Nadia is angry at Nemo for killing a Neo Atlantian on the beach and Nemo says "He was pointing a gun at you."

Originally it seemd like Nemo was saying "What I should have let him kill you?" But now with new context we realise hes saying "Anyone who threatens my daughter will pay." It was pretty cool to revisit that moment with new information.
 

Neil.T

Guild Member
Episode 18

I think it's happened before, but the scene in the radar room got me wondering - @Neil.T can you shed any light on whether Electra's "It's. A. Secret!" tic is a Japanese pun? The way she counts on her fingers as she says it seems very specific.
I'll take a look at it again later today but, for now, I can point out that breaking himitsu ("secret") down into syllables is typically a teasingly feminine way of playing up a secret.

Also, though, numbers have different forms in Japanese depending on how they're being used, and counting up to three can be done as hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, so it could be a kind of pun. I shall take a look later.

Just a reminder to folks that this is the first day of the three-day gap in our simulwatch. This'll give the Prof a chance to catch back up after his Netflix escapades. 😛

EDIT: I checked. There's no pun there after all: Electra's just emphasising each syllable by wagging her index finger. It's actually a relatively standard device, nothing to really write home about there. The animators have taken great care with the lip movement, though: rather than the standard kuchipaku (lip flaps) normally seen in anime, we actually get a more realistic representation of each syllable being formed: hi-mi-tsu. That's really neat.

The same bit of animation is used twice, giving increased value for money, production-wise.
 
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Professor Irony

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Hmm, odd - her finger wagging is referenced in the opening for the Omake shorts too, so I thought maybe there was more significance to that.

Episode 19


It's crossed my mind before, but this one really got me wondering what the original 20'000 Leagues Under the Sea is actually like - the giant squid from before and now the details about Nemo's friendship with the whale feel like something that might have come from the original story. I don't think it was anything I thought much about when I saw the show last time, but while I don't imagine there's enough here that Blue Water could really be considered an adaptation, I do wonder what, if anything might have been carried over from the original novels.

Episode 20

What caught my eye with this one last time around are the great cuts of King in his little hat and tie, and Electra as Marie sees her.





Stopping to consider it though, it's interesting how many perspectives we actually get on Electra in this episode. Jean looks up to her as a mother figure, Nadia sees her as a rival for Jean's attention, Marie sees her as a tyrant, and she herself speaks of her loyalty to Captain Nemo's mission, but beyond that, we also get that little glimpse into her quarters with the French and Japanese prints on the wall.

Visually, she's very similar to Ritsuko in Evangelion, but the way we're getting so many perspectives on what she's like, seems to prefigure the way Eva would explore the different parts of Misato's personality.

Omake 5

Unlike the previous omake, this one is actually presented more like an episode of the series, with the OP/ED playing in full, an ad-break bumper and even a title card announcing it as 'Episode 17.5'. It feels a little bit out of character, as Nadia announces her intent to enter the 'Miss Nautilus' pageant, but it's amusing nonetheless. It's also free of spoilers, in case anyone wants to check it out.
 
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JTurner

Brigade Leader
A bit too late, but here's my thoughts on certain aspects:

Why did Jean lie about getting a haircut from Electra? Or at least try to.
I don't perceive Jean as lying, because he's genuinely a very honest character. Just because the camera doesn't always show everything doesn't mean that we couldn't have assumed that Jean didn't ask about the ether's composition to Electra. Maybe he did genuinely ask that question and just told Nadia that.

Which brings me to my interpretation of Nadia. She expects people to "read her mind" instead of being forward with what she wants. Regarding the incident with the dress earlier on. She expects Jean to "get it", without openly asking him for a compliment. It's her poor social skills that are the problem. If she had been forward, Jean would have done so in a heartbeat because let's face it: he'd do anything for her. But 13 years of being unloved at the circus and taught to be distrustful has clouded Nadia's way of dealing with people who have no interest in betrayal and would do something for her if she tells them what she wants. That's why her first impulse is to get angry and say nasty things instead of openly conveying what she wants from Jean. She does learn to be more open with what she wants, though, as the show goes on.

Even during one of the worst episodes in the show (26), she does succeed in getting Jean to compliment her on an (awkwardly fashioned) new outfit because this time asks him directly. She even persists in getting a compliment from him. She succeeds.

There are times when it is hard for me to sympathize with her character during the canonical arc of the show because of she behaves, particularly in discussions about eating meat, etc. It's not so much that Jean doesn't want to understand her as much as she is openly trying to impose her views on him without giving a proper explanation on why this troubles her so much. She DOES finally confess why she has a problem with eating meat, though -- again, however, in a rather regrettable island episode (29), and he is understanding. Simply put, the real reason why Jean has trouble understanding her views? Because she hasn't learned how to talk about them properly instead of getting angry at every imagined slight.

At least that's how I see her.

I think the different styles and tones of other directors is the main problem though. At times it's like watching fan fiction rather than the source material and some episodes seemed to be deciding lacking in budget at times.
Correct. It's the primary reason why the island/Africa episodes (26, 32, and 33 being the worst offenders IMO) are so despised. Whatever "story" concocted in the island arc (23-31) could have easily been done in three episodes at most, and the Africa arc is totally unnecessary and doesn't need to be in the story at all. There's a good reason why Anno de-canonized them from the show.

It's not bad, I like Nadia's VA and Sanson's unexpected Englishness.
Very pleased to see fans liking the dub here. Despite the initially shaky accents in the beginning episodes, I thought it really got better and better as it went along, and I always considered it grossly underrated. As a fan of the show and the dub (minus the horrific fillers), it pleases me to see people giving the latter a second chance.
 
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JTurner

Brigade Leader
Also regarding the deer bit: Initially I was a bit bothered at how Jean comments on Sanson's skill in bringing down the deer, but then I eventually realized that he and the others were hungry for food and only saw the practicalities of killing for food. While I do somewhat understand where Nadia was getting at with the deer, I still think her overreaction was a bit too extreme, especially when she was just using nasty insults instead of explaining why she has an issue with people eating meat. Which is why I was at least glad for that bit in episode 29, as bad as that episode was. If she had told them, it could have saved a LOT of trouble for her, Jean, and Marie. (Because at one point when Marie mentions she feels ashamed for the deer, Nadia's impulse is to glare nastily at her, at which Jean is shocked.) Perhaps she did have to learn how to talk about it, and one could say that Jean and Marie could have made more efforts to see where she's coming from, but I personally felt that Nadia was the one who really needed to learn to be more trusting and social to others so as to explain her points of view rather than just lashing at people who don't "read her mind." Again, that's just how I saw it.
 

WMD

Hunter
Which brings me to my interpretation of Nadia. She expects people to "read her mind" instead of being forward with what she wants.

Because she hasn't learned how to talk about them properly instead of getting angry at every imagined slight.
This actually fits very well with her stated ability to speak with and understand animals. She believes shes a great communicator and so gets angry and confused when it doesnt work with people.
 

JTurner

Brigade Leader
This actually fits very well with her stated ability to speak with and understand animals. She believes shes a great communicator and so gets angry and confused when it doesnt work with people.
Exactly. That's the point of the story: for Nadia to learn how to communicate properly with other people and that doing so requires better methods than anger. Case in point: whenever Jean has a problem, he thinks about what is the best solution for it and keeps trying. He admits when he has an issue -- episode 17 being a good example -- yet his moves are much more social about it. Despite being a technologically-minded kid anymore of a nerd than a nature pacifist, he's actually the most balanced and arguably nicest guy in the show. He doesn't use anger to solve his problems. But reading other people's minds unfortunately isn't something that is one of his specialties. In all fairness, nobody can read other's minds. Which is why it takes Nadia finally admitting the real reason behind her meat eating issues that Jean finally understands why she has so much trouble with it. Same thing's true with her jealousy of Electra. If she had openly expressed concern to Jean she might lose him to Electra instead of getting angry and lashing out, it would have saved a whole lot of trouble and she wouldn't have risked damaging her friendship with him. If she had told him I'm sure Jean would have told her that he only sees her as a mother figure.

But of course Nadia has to learn the hard way that admitting her problems out loud instead of expecting people to "get it". I also notice how remorseful she looks after she speaks with Electra in the bath scene. I get the feeling there she regrets how she handled the whole situation with Electra and Jean and tries to make amends, even though we never see it. Reason I say this: because we see her show remorse for getting angry in the canonical episodes, which is why she apologizes to Jean and/or does something nice for him (going on beach walks, cooking him meals, comforting him about his dad, suggesting him to build the gyrocopter). That's what I liked about the friendship between the two in these canonical episodes. Both are characters who learn from each other, and more importantly, it's about her being "tamed" by this nice kid despite the occasional tantrum.

Which is why I was so disappointed when the filler arcs mucked all that up.
 
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Hunter
Episode 35

When Nadia goes a bit wierd and starts floating around and down into the hole with the Katharine it was so like Kaworu in Eva. Remarkably similar but interesting reversal that here it is our heroes descending.

The whole black and white with only blue tones for colour of the blue water was like a creepy dream! Very artsy.

The creepy dino graveyard being the ark was pretty sinister and kinda claustrophobic the red coming in was kind of startling especially being surrounded by death. So eerie.

The silhouette to silence of the fall was so artistic and dramatic. And so dark to have a main character try to commit suicide.

It being her birthday was a little corny.
 

Neil.T

Guild Member
Hmm, odd - her finger wagging is referenced in the opening for the Omake shorts too, so I thought maybe there was more significance to that.
Interesting. Do all these shorts have the same opening? I've never seen them.

Episode 19

It's crossed my mind before, but this one really got me wondering what the original 20'000 Leagues Under the Sea is actually like
. . .
while I don't imagine there's enough here that Blue Water could really be considered an adaptation, I do wonder what, if anything might have been carried over from the original novels.
The opening titles actually credit the novel under "original plan" (原案 in the picture below).「海底2万マイル」is its title in quote marks (literally "Bottom of the Ocean 20,000 Miles"), and the line immediately above that, ジュール•ベルヌ作, translates simply as "by Jules Verne".
IMG_20190825_192338494_BURST001.jpg

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Episode 35

Skipping the Island episodes really didn't work for a first viewing. I feel like I've lost the thread now. 😕
 
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Professor Irony

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Moderator
Interesting. Do all these shorts have the same opening? I've never seen them.
They do, yeah - rather inexplicably, each one opens with Jean and Nadia as cave people in a prehistoric environment. Again, I feel like that's a reference to something, but answers on a poscard there. If you're interested, they're not hard to find online and Omake 5 is definitely free of any spoilers for the main show.

Episode 35

Skipping the Island episodes really didn't work for a first viewing. I feel like I've lost the thread now. 😕
Should we take a break for a couple of days if you want to have a look at the remaining episodes? It sounds like WMD has already completed the show, so hopefully wouldn't be too put out if we did.

I do maintain that nothing of any consequence happens outside of 30/31, but must admit that I did watch all the Island episodes last time around and I'd rather not make anyone feel excluded over the head of it.

They're not fun to get through, but I think the only episode that really made me want to punch myself was the musical one.

Episode 21

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the series to be sure, but I suspect the scenes of the Nautilus sustaining huge visible damage may be one of the show's many throwbacks to Space Battleship Yamato. Also, like a complete pillock, I think I have completely forgotten to mention it until now, but a great deal of the show's visual design during the Nautilus segments is referencing Yamato, most notably the character design for Captain Nemo himself.



Episode 22

This is an impactful episode, with Electra divulging the details of exactly what happened to set the Nautilus's crew on their quest, but watching it a second time, I do find it kind of inelegant to get such a huge infodump at this point. I'm also not sure how I feel about Electra's decision to turn on Captain Nemo. The series does hint at her having a violent streak a couple of times before this, but I'm not sure her suddenly pulling a gun on him quite rings true. Maybe I just find it hard not to compare this scene with Ritsuko confronting Gendo in EoE.
 
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Hunter
Should we take a break for a couple of days if you want to have a look at the remaining episodes? It sounds like WMD has already completed the show, so hopefully wouldn't be too put out if we did.
Yeah I'm fine with that. I have some notes saved for the remaining episodes and can post them whenever, so really whatever's best for the flow of conversation really.
 

Neil.T

Guild Member
Should we take a break for a couple of days if you want to have a look at the remaining episodes?
I'm fine with that. I have some notes saved for the remaining episodes and can post them whenever, so really whatever's best for the flow of conversation really.
Nah, it's honestly fine, guys. Thanks, though. 🙂
I'll be watching episodes 38 and 39 today, then I'll go back and pick up the Island episodes after that.

I'll also get the Gunbuster thread put up pretty soon so we can agree on a schedule for it. (@ayase too.)
 

Neil.T

Guild Member
If you're interested, they're not hard to find online
I'll definitely look for those and have a watch, then. 👍

###

Episode 36

Launch the WunNew Nautilus, I mean! 😛

The subtitles for this episode omit (for reasons of brevity, I imagine) Electra's reference to the ship originally having the name Excelion. Giving how such an impressive weapon suddenly drops into the laps of our heroes, I can't help but think of it as the *cough * Deus Ex Maxcelion.

I think I'd rather have been following Nemo's crew than what Jean and co. were up to. That would've been way more interesting. 😕
 
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JTurner

Brigade Leader
I think I'd rather have been following Nemo's crew than what Jean and co. were up to. That would've been way more interesting. 😕
Agreed. Even when the show gets back on track I did feel there were some missing pieces of the puzzle. Just how did Nadia end up at the circus? How did Nemo and Gargoyle become enemies?

The silhouette to silence of the fall was so artistic and dramatic. And so dark to have a main character try to commit suicide.
Indeed. The moment I watched that episode I knew that the show was back on the right track. Considering how much trauma Nadia had been through as a child and the terrible destiny she's burdened with it makes sense. It was very touching that Jean still forgave her for that. He really is such a caring kid.

The birthday scene at the end was also very touching.
 
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Hunter
Episode 36

Nadia giving herself up didnt seem remotely logical. Esp after everyone said Gargoyle would just kill them anyway. That guy they're with is such a coward!

Turns out the scythe bros a actually are useful and not just decoration!

Marie saying this is boring as they fall to their deaths was actually pretty funny!

So when that person appeared I thought more new characters this late in the game. Then everyone’s like oh Electra. Wait what? Has her skin always been that tone? Quite the make over. And Nemo rocking the long hair. How long were they on those islands?!

That revolver style bomb mechanism is pretty cool looking and then it turns into the maximum annihilation bomb. Basically an N2 mine!

Also the new Nautilus is sweet.
 

Professor Irony

Cursed Image
Moderator
Episode 35

So begins the last act. I have thoughts on the general direction of the show as it enters this part, but I'll hold off on that until the end to see how I feel about this chunk as a whole.

Grandis's attempt to impart wisdom to Nadia over the symbology of the gems they carry was kind of sweet really. It's like she knows roughly what she's trying to say (presumably that the gems are just things and what meaning they carry is for them to decide), but can't quite get it across.
 

JTurner

Brigade Leader
How long were they on those islands?!
Hanson did say in episode 31 four months, but I reckon it was probably longer than that. Then again who knows.

Did some interesting research on the actual day of the real-life Paris World Expo. It started on May 6, 1989. So if we go by that, we can assume it took a full year and 25 days for our heroes to finally reach Tartessos, especially since they do so on Nadia's birthday (May 31).
 
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Hunter
Realised today is actually episode 37 day

Episode 37

Pretty wierd bedroom for Nadia. Neo feels so empty as a character. The blue waters morphing is very much likethe Angel in 1.11

Calling a grave yard a junk yard is pretty harsh.

Well that was a handy tunnel.

Red Noah is pretty impressive. Real UFO look. The I shall declare war on the whole world bwah ha ha. So Austin powers.

The exposition this time was far more enjoyable though it is a little overstuffed with space mumbo jumbo.

The giant adam and the explanation of creation was interesting. Lots of parallels to Eva but here it’s about creationism whereas in Eva I always had the impression of separate evolutions.

Nadia in an early plug suit prototype.

Very Independence Day feel with the ship over the city and the ensuing destruction.

New Nautilus is an awesome ship and has awesome take off.
 

Neil.T

Guild Member
Episode 37

A number of ideas that would later resurface in Eva feature in this episode. Here are some visual comparisons. Some contain EVANGELION REBUILD images, hidden in SPOILER tags below:

IMG_20190826_172130996.jpg
Nadia: mysterious giant embedded in the wall

versus...

IMG_20190827_130542505.jpg
Evangelion episode 5: NERV escalator

plus...

IMG_20190827_131831316.jpg
Evangelion episode 23': the lift leading down to Terminal Dogma

plus...

IMG_20190828_195505763.jpg
One of the many "Failures of Infinity" embedded in the scenery

* * * * *

IMG_20190826_171701935.jpg
Nadia: the two parts of the Blue Water shift shape

versus...

IMG_20190827_134441975.jpg
Shape-shifting Geometric Lad 6th Angel

* * * * *

IMG_20190826_171540102.jpg
Nadia: ???

versus...

IMG_20190827_131121330.jpg
Evangelion episode 23': Rei's "tank"

plus...

IMG_20190827_140540430.jpg
A shot from the misleading end-of-film preview: the same kind of glyphs as in the Nadia image are visible on the wall behind Mari

(continues)
 
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