multiculturalism

@Watanabe Ken my point was (to address your question of where the UK is heading) that I don't think the UK is getting worse from the point of view of sectarian violence because in one form or another, it's always been here (Hell, the Protestants and Catholics were at each other's throats for centuries) and I don't think multiculturalism is really having an impact on that. Might there be less tension and conflict if we weren't a multicultural society? Perhaps. But as Rui mentions our history is completely different to somewhere like Japan, Britain has been multicultural ever since the Romans arrived. Then we had the Vikings, the Normans, the Anglo-Saxons... There's no way for us not to be multicultural because British culture is itself a mish-mash of cultures.

crashmatt said:
We are not very good at celebrating what were good at or have achieved. I grew up in the 90s and were far too sensitive and less comfortable with who we are. Theres a lack of confidence that prevails throughout the UK.
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Can you actually think of any specific examples though of British culture being frowned upon?
 
Dave1988 said:
Seriously those ....why do people flock to the UK than anywhere else? There's nothing here?
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They don't. According to List of countries by net migration rate - Wikipedia (taken from World Bank data) the UK had the 36th highest level of net immigration relative to population in the period between 2007 and 2012, which was a period where the country saw a higher net immigration rate than any other since WW2 and a higher rate than it has since then.

And if you take gross immigration rates rather than net rates, we're even lower in the rankings (and below various countries which have high levels of net emigration).
 
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The Romans invading the British isles and bringing slaves against there will from other conquered provenance of the Roman empire, then presented day archaeologist digging up the bones of said dead slaves is a terrible example for proving Britain is a multicultural society. Then the Saxons came and killed every nearly everybody anyway then they converted to Christianity, then the Vikings came and they eventually converted to Christianity or were killed, then Normans came who were also Christians. Anyway my point is Britain has always been a Christian country full of Caucasians and not multicultural in the slightest unless we count people killing and conquering other people as multicultural.


Ainu/Jomon people are the indigenous people of Japan, Ainu/Jomon people came from the Northeast area of Japan near Russia which is known as Hokkaido. Yayoi Japanese came from Korea, China, and Mongolia. People coming over and killing other people for there land yeah really different from us aren't they.
 
Watanabe Ken said:
Britain has always been a Christian country
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I think those indigenous Britons who were here before the Romans and built the stone circles might have something to say about that.

Regardless of how it happened (I'm not saying people in antiquity were tolerant "multiculturalists" in the modern way the term is used) even things like yes, the Romans bringing slaves does make Britain multicultural in early days. I'm not sure how it didn't. If those Romans and those slaves were from different cultures as were the indigenous Britons, and the mixing of those people created the Romano-British (a culture in its own right) then there were people of different cultures here. History isn't as simple as cultures just wiping others out and replacing them. It's incredibly rare that actually happens, even in places where people have tried. A lot of our traditions are proof of that - Plenty of them are of Pagan origin.

I don't really know enough about early Japanese history to get into that.
 
I'm with ayase, I really don't understand it when people say that British tradition has died out or is frowned upon. It's as alive and well as it's ever been from what I can see, and I live in London, and people always say that London has no sense of common tradition or culture (which is just not true!). So many English people love heritagey stuff, it's everywhere, and as ayase said, you often see people from other cultures enjoying it and joining in too.

It's funny, I have another Japanese friend who I had a coffee with last week, and he was telling me that he admires the national pride people have over here and feels that Japan is lacking in that department. He also mentioned how uneasy many people in Japan feel about their national flag being displayed. I was quite surprised to hear this, because you usually hear people say the reverse (as some in this thread have). Maybe foreign traditions just seem more obvious when you're not already used to them.
 
Why the **** are we talking about multiculturalism anyway last time checked 2017 Britain was a cultural plural society not a multicultural one

A recent example of British culture being suppressed is the national trust Easter Egg Hunt they do every year to celebrate Easter, but apparently last year the word Easter was to offensive and not inclusive enough so they banished the word Easter and renamed it the Great British Egg Hunt. But I'm glad they were told off and will be using the word Easter this year Join the Cadbury Easter Egg Hunts
 
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Vashdaman said:
He also mentioned how uneasy many people in Japan feel about their national flag being displayed. I was quite surprised to hear this, because you usually hear people say the reverse (as some in this thread have). Maybe foreign traditions just seem more obvious when you're not already used to them.
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The flag thing for Japan I think is a bit of a holdover from the War, you find the Germans have the same sense that a lot of flag waving is a bit like the ultranationalism some people would rather not be reminded of. Britain did have that problem in the '70s and '80s when a lot of flag waving became associated with the National Front, but I think that feeling died out with them.

Watanabe Ken said:
Why the **** are we talking about multiculturalism anyway last time checked 2017 Britain was a cultural plural society not a multicultural one
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Only if you think people of different cultures don't really intemix, which in the UK they definitely do. Plenty of mixed race relationships and children of multiple cultural backgrounds here.

Watanabe Ken said:
A recent example of British culture being suppressed is the national trust Easter Egg Hunt they do every year to celebrate Easter, but apparently last year the word Easter was to offensive and not inclusive enough so they banished the word Easter and renamed it the Great British Egg Hunt. But I'm glad they were told off and will be using the word Easter this year Join the Cadbury Easter Egg Hunts
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So one company decided to their rebrand their individual (corporate) event in a wrong-headed move that clearly backfired. That's hardly traditions being suppressed, no-one forced them to do that and I imagine there were plenty more Easter egg hunts taking place in the same year*. It's just tabloid outrage, reporting on things like that is designed to upset people and isn't really representative of what's going on in the country as a whole.

I think this whole idea that people might take "offence" at other cultures' festivals is nonsense dreamt up by out of touch suits in boardrooms worrying if they're not "inclusive" it will cut into their profits. I've certainly had non-Christian Indian and Pakistani people wish me a Happy Christmas - Now I don't even believe in God but I'm hardly going to be resentful of someone telling me they hope I have a nice time.

*And they were probably Ostara eggs anyway.
 
Cultural pluralism is a term used when smaller groups within a larger society maintain their unique cultural identities, and their values and practices are accepted by the wider culture provided they are consistent with the laws and values of the wider society. Cultural pluralism is distinct from (though often confused with) multiculturalism. Multiculturalism lacks the requirement of a dominant culture. The UK has a dominant Culture so it can't be multicultural.
 
Watanabe Ken said:
Well Yeah if they didn't have the motivations that drives them to violence then there's a good chance that the violence won't take place. It's like if you catch a guy in bed with your wife, your not beating him up because you like violence your doing it because he defiled your wife.
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You know, technically your wife was the one who broke her vows, not the guy you're not even married to. And you shouldn't beat people up regardless. This is just one step away from blaming victims of random violence or abuse because they were 'asking for it'. No matter where we're from, all human beings are capable of showing one another respect (or disrespect) if they choose to.

Watanabe Ken said:
national trust Easter Egg Hunt they do every year to celebrate Easter, but apparently last year the word Easter was to offensive and not inclusive enough so they banished the word Easter and renamed it the Great British Egg Hunt.
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It offends a lot of religious people who do celebrate Easter when their cultural celebrations are co-opted to sell chocolate eggs to children as well. They would be those Christian caucasians you're rushing to defend. I know it sells more newspapers if people scream out that brown people are oppressing 'our' values but I would be very surprised to learn that there had been mass complaints from non-Christians (from a reliable source of information, I mean). If they don't want chocolate eggs, they just don't go to hunt for chocolate eggs. People from minority groups are used to making this kind of compromise every single day of their lives in a society which presumes to have its own dominant cultural identity; and if there is one here, I've certainly never felt part of it.

I do agree that one slightly sad thing about the UK is our lack of interest in our own history, not because we're short of historical sites to explore (there are loads) but because I think a lot of people don't care about it, probably because our education system makes everything seem so boring and dry. That's not the fault of multiculturalism, though; if anything, visitors from abroad are far more interested in our old sites and relics than the average generic British person. I know I live a stone's throw from countless beautiful sites and events and I seldom bother taking a look at any of them, which is weird because when I go to Japan I spend most of my time checking out medieval battlefields and learning esoteric trivia. I don't see how we can blame our own low attendance numbers on other people when we're the ones not showing up and supporting this kind of activity.

R
 
Watanabe Ken said:
A recent example of British culture being suppressed is the national trust Easter Egg Hunt they do every year to celebrate Easter, but apparently last year the word Easter was to offensive and not inclusive enough so they banished the word Easter and renamed it the Great British Egg Hunt. But I'm glad they were told off and will be using the word Easter this year Join the Cadbury Easter Egg Hunts
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Never let the truth get in the way of the utterly tiresome manufactured war on Christmas/Easter/western democratic values etc etc... brought to us by right wing (mostly) Christian conservatives;

"The National Trust denied it was downplaying Easter and claimed Cadbury was responsible for the rebranding of the egg hunt.

A spokesman said: “The National Trust is in no way downplaying the significance of Easter, which is why we put on a huge number of events, activities and walks to bring families together at this time of year. We work closely with Cadbury, who are responsible for the branding and wording of our egg hunt campaign.”

A spokesman for Cadbury said: "Each year, our Easter campaigns have a different name and this year our seasonal campaign is called the ‘Cadbury’s Great British Egg Hunt’.

"It is clear to see that within our communications and marketing we clearly state the word Easter and include it in a number of promotional materials, including our website, where we do also promote our partnership with National Trust at this seasonal time of year. We invite people from all faiths and none to enjoy our seasonal treats, which can be found around Easter time.”

Source
 
Rui said:
You know, technically your wife was the one who broke her vows, not the guy you're not even married to. And you shouldn't beat people up regardless. This is just one step away from blaming victims of random violence or abuse because they were 'asking for it'. No matter where we're from, all human beings are capable of showing one another respect (or disrespect) if they choose to.



It offends a lot of religious people who do celebrate Easter when their cultural celebrations are co-opted to sell chocolate eggs to children as well. They would be those Christian caucasians you're rushing to defend. I know it sells more newspapers if people scream out that brown people are oppressing 'our' values but I would be very surprised to learn that there had been mass complaints from non-Christians (from a reliable source of information, I mean). If they don't want chocolate eggs, they just don't go to hunt for chocolate eggs. People from minority groups are used to making this kind of compromise every single day of their lives in a society which presumes to have its own dominant cultural identity; and if there is one here, I've certainly never felt part of it.

I do agree that one slightly sad thing about the UK is our lack of interest in our own history, not because we're short of historical sites to explore (there are loads) but because I think a lot of people don't care about it, probably because our education system makes everything seem so boring and dry. That's not the fault of multiculturalism, though; if anything, visitors from abroad are far more interested in our old sites and relics than the average generic British person. I know I live a stone's throw from countless beautiful sites and events and I seldom bother taking a look at any of them, which is weird because when I go to Japan I spend most of my time checking out medieval battlefields and learning esoteric trivia. I don't see how we can blame our own low attendance numbers on other people when we're the ones not showing up and supporting this kind of activity.

R
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A few things I'd like to point out

1. The man beating his wife's lover was just an example I gave of something that does happen in today's society, me using it as an example doesn't mean I blame victims or random violence that's just stupid and a big leap on your part (your legs must be tired).
2. A good percentage of Britain's Christians are "brown people" as you call them (that's kinda racist so please refrain from using it again)
3. I'm a big supporter of freedom of religion or more importantly freedom of thought and speech so it's more of me combating the intolerant far left who are actively harming those freedoms in the name of progression politics than defending one particular religion, Because let's be honest there all nonsense.
4. When a person moves to another country they have to obey there laws whether it's you or a person from a minority group, but I would like to hear some specific examples of the compromise minorities make in this country if your not to busy... actually sounds quite intersecting.
 
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Greboruri said:
Never let the truth get in the way of the utterly tiresome manufactured war on Christmas/Easter/western democratic values etc etc... brought to us by right wing (mostly) Christian conservatives;

"The National Trust denied it was downplaying Easter and claimed Cadbury was responsible for the rebranding of the egg hunt.

A spokesman said: “The National Trust is in no way downplaying the significance of Easter, which is why we put on a huge number of events, activities and walks to bring families together at this time of year. We work closely with Cadbury, who are responsible for the branding and wording of our egg hunt campaign.”

A spokesman for Cadbury said: "Each year, our Easter campaigns have a different name and this year our seasonal campaign is called the ‘Cadbury’s Great British Egg Hunt’.

"It is clear to see that within our communications and marketing we clearly state the word Easter and include it in a number of promotional materials, including our website, where we do also promote our partnership with National Trust at this seasonal time of year. We invite people from all faiths and none to enjoy our seasonal treats, which can be found around Easter time.”

Source
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Yeah I actually saw it on the BBC news channel but if you like to read the telegraph then good for you friend :) PM steps in over Cadbury Easter egg row
 
Watanabe Ken said:
A few things I'd like to point out

1. The man beating his wife's lover was just an example I gave of something that does happen in today's society, me using it as an example doesn't mean I blame victims or random violence that's just stupid and a big leap on your part (your legs must be tired).
2. A good percentage of Britain's Christians are "brown people" as you call them (that's kinda racist so please refrain from using it again)
3. I'm a big supporter of freedom of religion or more importantly freedom of thought and speech so it's more of me combating the intolerant far left who are actively harming those freedoms in the name of progression politics than defending one particular religion, Because let's be honest there all nonsense.
4. When a person moves to another country they have to obey there laws whether it's you or a person from a minority group, but I would like to hear some specific examples of the compromise minorities make in this country if your not to busy... actually sounds quite intersecting.
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You do realise that the context of her use of the term 'brown people' was a shot at the kind of right wing newspapers that push that kind of tripe and not what she'd actually refer to POC, right?
 
IncendiaryLemon said:
You do realise that the context of her use of the term 'brown people' was a shot at the kind of right wing newspapers that push that kind of tripe and not what she'd actually refer to POC, right?
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Really I though they wouldn't be allowed to use such a derogatory term in the newspapers, but that still doesn't give a person the right to use that word so please don't use it again.
 
Well I condemn all those who use such words regardless of which newspapers they read.

Edit. I would also like to make it clear that I don't think all people who read a specific newspaper are by default stereotypical racists who use derogatory words to refer to Britain's coloured community, and I support everybody's right to read whatever newspaper they like and will not dismiss their views because they read said newspapers.
 
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Ken it's fairly obvious what you're doing here and it's not particularly clever and it is incredibly petty. I'm happy to discuss things with you when you're being civil but you're clearly a very easy man to trigger and put on the defensive. You know when people are talking about tabloids they're referring to a certain sensationalist tabloid mentality which not even the broadsheets or the BBC are immune from, rather than specific tabloid newspapers. You know exactly what Rui's intentions were by her words. I can't speak for anyone else but pretending not to understand and then being sarcastic about it (clearly carrying over grudges from other threads) doesn't make me personally very interested in discussing things with you. And please don't play innocent again, you know exactly what you're doing. Maybe just try not taking such personal offence at other people's opinions. You might believe in freedom of speech but you're clearly not happy when people disagree with you.

As for what to call people of different ethnic minorities, I don't use "people of colour" because I know at least one black person who despises the term (I believe his exact words when he heard someone else say it were "I'm not a 'person of colour' I'm f'ing BLACK") and I don't really like it myself because it feels like it's lumping all non-white people together as though there are just whites and non-whites (which feels uncomfortably segregation-ish and also kinda unfairly singles out white people as either being different from everybody else or being the norm) so I'll always just refer to people as what they are, black, white, Indian, Pakistani, Asian, etc.
 
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I really don't like to bring my personal life into debates ,I honestly don't like being put in a box and expected to act a certain way and hold political opinions because of the colour my skin or being labelled as a white rights winger because some of the things I say on this forum don't line up with everybody else beliefs.

But I'm not going to lie that comment and the other post insinuating that I must have got my beliefs from the telegraph really pissed me off even triggered me a bit, I may not have the darkest skin but I am a POC, and yes I don't like the term POC either and think it's just a way the progressive left use to put everybody who isn't white in a box so they can tell them that there victims and recruit them into there movement. Ps if you don't want to debate me then just Don't there's no need to demonize me and paint me as something I'm not, granted I have in the past let my annoyance get the better of me and posted things I probably shouldn't have so I can see where your coming from, but I don't demonize you and dismiss your arguments I just reply with my counter arguments, they may not be as elegantly worded like yours but they are sincere and my own.

Edit. I only just noticed this comment and think it deserves its own reply
You might believe in freedom of speech but you're clearly not happy when people disagree with you.
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I don't have to be happy if someone disagrees with me that's not how freedom of speak works. I think you have disagreeing with someone confused with someone shouting down free speech by dismissing them as a trolls or deleting there post for example, People are allowed to disagree with each other we don't live in ******* North Korea.
 
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The worst people around at the moment are those who are offended of behalf of someone else. For example with the Easter Egg hunt you can guarantee its not ethnic minorities or other religions that are complaining but so called do gooders that think they speak for the majority and feel the need to neutralise anything that doesn't conform to their view of the world.

In short they do far more harm to integration and multiculturism
 
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