Miyazaki - a bit boring?

[VivisQueen]

So I just watched Porco Rosso on Film4 and it kept my attention only 50% of the time. I watched it because I felt I should experience more Miyazaki and not because I enjoyed it - my philosophy is that it's good to understand even if you don't necessarily like or agree with something.

There were snatches of dialogue - the more adult ones - where the movie bordered on brilliance. For example, the scene when Gina is talking to the American guy in her gazebo and explains how she made a bet that if the man she loves joins here there, they'd get together, but he only comes to her restaurant and never shows his face to her in daylight. I thought that was gorgeous. Also because I think Gina is one of the most gorgeously animated characters in any Miyazaki film. Then there is the night camping scene when Rosso is explaining to the engineer how he came to be a pig, and his resignation to his situation is quite moving.

But that's about it. The sprightly aviation scenes (though gorgeous for their time) seemed like light icing rather than the necessary meat of the experience; most of the characters were one-dimensional; and the entire edifice of the show felt whimiscal and pointless. As if Miyazaki came up with the idea on the spot while in the bath one day and then rushed to the studio to immediately make it.

And it just reminded me of why I actually don't find him as gripping as I used to. I swear I still love Princess Mononoke and Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro is a romp of the highest class, but Spirited Away was an excess of pompous animation coupled with a reed-thin storyline. In any case, it's never good when you watch the work of a paragon of the industry and the first thought within five minutes is: 'Man, I miss Satoshi Kon.'

 

[Genkina Hito]

So I just watched Porco Rosso on Film4 and it kept my attention only 50% of the time. I watched it because I felt I should experience more Miyazaki and not because I enjoyed it - my philosophy is that it's good to understand even if you don't necessarily like or agree with something.

There were snatches of dialogue - the more adult ones - where the movie bordered on brilliance. For example, the scene when Gina is talking to the American guy in her gazebo and explains how she made a bet that if the man she loves joins here there, they'd get together, but he only comes to her restaurant and never shows his face to her in daylight. I thought that was gorgeous. Also because I think Gina is one of the most gorgeously animated characters in any Miyazaki film. Then there is the night camping scene when Rosso is explaining to the engineer how he came to be a pig, and his resignation to his situation is quite moving.

But that's about it. The sprightly aviation scenes (though gorgeous for their time) seemed like light icing rather than the necessary meat of the experience; most of the characters were one-dimensional; and the entire edifice of the show felt whimiscal and pointless. As if Miyazaki came up with the idea on the spot while in the bath one day and then rushed to the studio to immediately make it.

And it just reminded me of why I actually don't find him as gripping as I used to. I swear I still love Princess Mononoke and Lupin III: Castle of Cagliostro is a romp of the highest class, but Spirited Away was an excess of pompous animation coupled with a reed-thin storyline. In any case, it's never good when you watch the work of a paragon of the industry and the first thought within five minutes is: 'Man, I miss Satoshi Kon.'

How DARE you! You have no soul! :evil:

Okay guys, we'll meet outside her place with burning torches and chase her around a bit.

Seriously though, what's wrong with a bit of whimsy? Porco Rosso screams quality. It has great pacing, the scenes exude atmosphere, the music is perfect and it is well-written. Hell, even the English dub is perfect.

I watched it at the same time as you I see.

 

[Durial666]

BURN THE WITCH!

 

[Sparrowsabre7]

I do have to say I'm not overly fond of Miyazaki either. I haven't seen enough of his films to really comment and I suspect I would enjoy Princess Mononoke, but I didn't really like Spirited Away (though I did like Howl's Moving Castle)

 

[kupocake]

It just sounds like you enjoy action films (or rather 'films with more action') over stuff that's less eventful. There's nothing wrong with that, but it just seems that you're not interested in this kind of film, and you shouldn't expect to be simply because it comes from director x / studio y / medium z.

Not that Porco Rosso is the best example of his work, or that I think he's entirely immune to the kind of criticism you've levelled at him. But I'd grind the axe for Ponyo rather than the stuff that came before (well ok, Howl was totally unfocussed, but still enjoyable).

 

[ilmaestro]

Spirited Away was an excess of pompous animation coupled with a reed-thin storyline.

I can't even remotely understand why this is a de facto complaint. In fact, I don't even understand what "pompous" animation is supposed to mean.

Either way, I'm (quite seriously) increasingly convinced that Miyazaki's movies are for children and guys, so I wouldn't worry too much about not liking everything he does. Mononoke Hime is still his best film imo, too, so again no surprise that you like that but not so much anything else.

Have you seen Nausicaa?

 

[kupocake]

Miyazaki's movies are for children and guys

Obviously the former. No idea where you're coming from on the later.

 

[Zin5ki]

In published interviews, I believe the director has spoken quite explicitly on the fact his films target children.

(Princess Mononoke might be an exception to such a practice, though I was nonetheless left unimpressed by its thematic content.)

 

[MaxonTreik]

In any case, it's never good when you watch the work of a paragon of the industry and the first thought within five minutes is: 'Man, I miss Satoshi Kon.'

I was with you until this part. If you want a Kon type film, then why are you watching Miyazaki's stuff?

That's like going to watch a Disney movie and saying "Well, this director is no Tarantino".

 

[Sparrowsabre7]

In any case, it's never good when you watch the work of a paragon of the industry and the first thought within five minutes is: 'Man, I miss Satoshi Kon.'

I was with you until this part. If you want a Kon type film, then why are you watching Miyazaki's stuff?

That's like going to watch a Disney movie and saying "Well, this director is no Tarantino".

I don't know. I mean if we're talking Perfect Blue or Paranoia Agent then yeah it's not a great comparison, but I think Millennium Actress and Paprika both involve a similar level of fantasy about them.

 

[MaxonTreik]

In any case, it's never good when you watch the work of a paragon of the industry and the first thought within five minutes is: 'Man, I miss Satoshi Kon.'

I was with you until this part. If you want a Kon type film, then why are you watching Miyazaki's stuff?

That's like going to watch a Disney movie and saying "Well, this director is no Tarantino".

I don't know. I mean if we're talking Perfect Blue or Paranoia Agent then yeah it's not a great comparison, but I think Millennium Actress and Paprika both involve a similar level of fantasy about them.

It's not the fantasy I'm on about.

 

[ilmaestro]

Miyazaki's movies are for children and guys

Obviously the former. No idea where you're coming from on the later.

Totally anecdotal - I must know/have heard from six or seven women who don't particularly like his movies, and no guys that I can specifically think of. It makes some sense to me the more I think about it, but it would be hard to articulate without coming across slightly controversially.

In published interviews, I believe the director has spoken quite explicitly on the fact his films target children.

I don't necessarily mean by design, just as a result of how they come out.

 

[Rui]

Maybe women lose our love of childlike innocence early

On topic I am one of those creatures ilmaestro mentions who aren't too fond of Ghibli movies - the ones I rate are Howl, Earthsea, Ocean Waves etc whereas things like Porco Rosso drive me insane. In many online anime communities, not liking Ghibli is akin to loudly declaring that you eat babies, so I rarely hear similar opinions.

My husband bought Ponyo the other day, and I'm afraid I hated that too. I can appreciate that it is well made, with some pretty art, cute scripting and bold colours, but it just does nothing for me and makes me want to go and do something else rather than keep watching. I don't think it's an action thing particularly (I think Ponyo had far more than Ocean Waves!) but there's definitely something about the very Miyazaki-esque movies which doesn't do it for me.

I can't even explain it away as not liking whimsical fantasy as I love Utena and Princess Tutu. It's not that I don't like things aimed at children either, because I love cheesy 80s cartoons, Dog of Flanders and Flight of Dragons. I cried watching Seirei no Moribito a few days after Ponyo so it's not that I don't have a heart. Miyazaki Senior and his way of telling stories simply doesn't click at all.

R

 

[kupocake]

Totally anecdotal - I must know/have heard from six or seven women who don't particularly like his movies, and no guys that I can specifically think of. It makes some sense to me the more I think about it, but it would be hard to articulate without coming across slightly controversially.

Whereas in my experience, women rarely like anything anime beyond Miyazaki's films and 99% of males would be more likely to submit to actual castration.

not liking Ghibli is akin to loudly declaring that you eat babies

For my part, I find it difficult to think of a set of films that are so absolutely inoffensive, but I can understand why people don't click with them.

Baby eaters like Earthsea, or so I hear. And yeah, Ponyo isn't dull, it's just incredibly irrational, like some kind of fisher-price colourful morphine trip. And not in a good way.

 

[Warmaster]

Stuff

I agree with you in this case - I consider Porco Rosso Miyazaki's weakest film. (I did mention it on another thread) One of the reasons I feel that is the same as yours - the characters are rather flat compared to some of his other films, and the fight scenes are hamstrung by studio interference (Not allowed any crashing planes) it is also too short to explore the story (partially why characters are flat)

I wouldn't by any means say this is indicative of Miyazaki as a whole though. Mononoke is one of my favorite films full stop, and all his other films I would call 'great' at the least, with only a few having big problems (Kiki has some pacing issues, Nausicaa's ending is a little meh - but he fixed that with the manga etc) Porco Rosso I have unfortunately only ever been able to say 'ok' about. But considering how many films he has made, one 'average' film is not a back record for me.

 

[VivisQueen]

It just sounds like you enjoy action films (or rather 'films with more action') over stuff that's less eventful. There's nothing wrong with that, but it just seems that you're not interested in this kind of film, and you shouldn't expect to be simply because it comes from director x / studio y / medium z.

Not that Porco Rosso is the best example of his work, or that I think he's entirely immune to the kind of criticism you've levelled at him. But I'd grind the axe for Ponyo rather than the stuff that came before (well ok, Howl was totally unfocussed, but still enjoyable).

I'm taking in what you're saying, but it's always dangerous to make assumptions about someone's taste. There are plenty of quiet shows I adore. Ever seen Only Yesterday? Superb Isao Takahata film. Probably one of the quietest anime shows ever created. What about Grave of the Fireflies, makes anything Miyazaki has made pale in comparison. Again, a Takahata film. Plenty of other non-Ghibli examples (Mushishi, Natsume Yuujinchou, Piano no Mori etc etc). Haven't seen Ponyo. Generally avoiding any new Miyazaki shows unless people I trust tell me he's a created a new masterpiece that will thrill your socks off. Actually, I'm trying to work backwards through his repertoire. Like I said, Lupin III (pre-Ghibli) was an excellent find.

Now to go read the rest of the comments. Hopefully they'll be less 'BURN THE WITCH' and more genuinely interesting arguments.

 

[VivisQueen]

In any case, it's never good when you watch the work of a paragon of the industry and the first thought within five minutes is: 'Man, I miss Satoshi Kon.'

I was with you until this part. If you want a Kon type film, then why are you watching Miyazaki's stuff?

That's like going to watch a Disney movie and saying "Well, this director is no Tarantino".

No, no, don't take that too literally. I am not making comparisons in terms of style or content, but simply in terms of the different feelings they arouse in me. I will watch a Miyazaki film now and my initial reaction is to prepare myself to be bored at times. It's an unfortunate psychological habit. I don't approach Miyazaki movies with anticipation anymore... just sort of 'Okay, it's going to be gorgeously animated, it might veer into self-fellating, overly long sequences at times like Spirited Away, the characters are going to be quite plain and speak in this sort of delicate manner, and, well, it's just going to be another 8/10 Miyazaki film made to the Miyazaki formula. But it's good that I watch it because it's good to know the important stuff.' On the other hand, say it were a Kon film, my reaction would be to scramble over myself to get the DVD into the player and sit raptly trying to guess as to the opening sequence. And then, when it's finished, I'd be like 'Holy ****, that's NOTHING like his last one and yet it's still so brilliant!'

That was all.

I can't even explain it away as not liking whimsical fantasy as I love Utena and Princess Tutu. It's not that I don't like things aimed at children either, because I love cheesy 80s cartoons, Dog of Flanders and Flight of Dragons. I cried watching Seirei no Moribito a few days after Ponyo so it's not that I don't have a heart. Miyazaki Senior and his way of telling stories simply doesn't click at all.

Everything Rui said. And hi five on the Princess Tutu and Seirei no Moribito love! Try Piano no Mori for a great children's movie with heart that is not Ghibli. And generally, try anything by Isao Takahata if you like non-Ghibli Ghibli shows. If you liked Ocean Waves, Only Yesterday should blow you away. It's £6.99 on play.com and in the 2 for £10 deal. I mention it because I'm uhming and ahring whether to buy it in the deal or by itself. Haha.

 

[kupocake]

I'm taking in what you're saying, but it's always dangerous to make assumptions about someone's taste.

If someone says 'Miyazaki isn't that great except Lupin III and Mononoke', I'd hardly call that an unsafe assumption! I love both films too, but they work on a completely different hemisphere of my brain than anything else he's done (edit: Except perhaps Laputa. But that's also a bit more daft).

Beyond Takahata's films, I'm actually not familiar with anything you've mentioned so I'm really none the wiser about how far I missed the mark (I wouldn't describe Fireflies as 'uneventful' really. Point taken on Only Yesterday... even if the passing of time has made me less inclined to see what is essentially a b-grade soap opera story as genre defining just because it's animated).

 

[VivisQueen]

I'm taking in what you're saying, but it's always dangerous to make assumptions about someone's taste.

If someone says 'Miyazaki isn't that great except Lupin III and Mononoke', I'd hardly call that an unsafe assumption! I love both films too, but they work on a completely different hemisphere of my brain than anything else he's done (edit: Except perhaps Laputa. But that's also a bit more daft).

Beyond Takahata's films, I'm actually not familiar with anything you've mentioned so I'm really none the wiser about how far I missed the mark (I wouldn't describe Fireflies as 'uneventful' really. Point taken on Only Yesterday... even if the passing of time has made me less inclined to see what is essentially a b-grade soap opera story as genre defining just because it's animated).

Firstly, it definitely is an unsafe assumption because we're talking only of Miyazaki films, and not even that many Miyazaki films. That's clearly a rocky foundation upon which to make an assertion. Secondly, my reasons for feeling underwhelmed by some of his work had little to do with 'not having any action' and more with the flat, samey whimsy I keep detecting. Thirdly, Spirited Away is also 'eventful' but the somewhat aimless format of the narrative negated all the creativity in the animation for me. And finally, now is as good a time as any to correct your mistake of not having seen Mushishi.

 

[Kaede]

Porco Rosso is probably Miyazaki's most self indulgent film. He himself referred to it as a 'hobby of the old man' when talking about the prospect of a sequel. Which is probably why you dislike it so much and why I absolutely love it.

The film concentrates on creating a world in which these can characters exist, with the story almost taking a back seat. I found Kiki's Delivery Service and My Neighbour Totoro to be a bit like this as well. Films you watch simply to absorb the characters, the world and the animation Miyazaki can conjure up. They all share rather dream like qualities, but in a much different way to the films of someone like Satoshi Kon.