Miscellaneous mecha discussion thread

Franxx You For The Music - Return of the Playlist
Heheh some bits here had me cracking up! (And you can probably never go wrong with any track from The Cure in my books). My memory of individual episodes is proving to be crap so will keep my trap shut for now until hopefully the future simulwatch, and as much as I'm currently stoked to re-watch Franxx now before the main simulwatch, I don't think it'll be in time to contribute any thoughts here...
 
Actually not stealing your patented format for posting spoilers, ayase because they're not episode-specific, just stuff that took shape in my head over time.

Character-wise there's a bit of stuff bothering me. I thought the Doctor would end up going against the stereotype and being a morally solid dude, but sure doesn't seem like it.

Nana having been a Unit member under the doc's supervision ever since being a kid recontextualizes him copping a feel on her butt at the beginning of the series and not in a good light.

Kokoro being sexually agressive or at least more than Mitsuru was nice in the sense that it goes against her established image but her developing maternal instincts at such a young age is weird as hell. I don't know, I don't like it nor do I buy it.

Back to Nana, the way she treats the kids should've already prompted a more aggressive response, but they're unsatisyingly tame when it comes to her.

Finally, this is probably the only show ever where I felt like a character cutting his hair wasn't meant to signal a change in them but rather to make them appear less impenetrable and more sympathetic.... And fail miserably. Maybe it's one of those "b.tch eating crackers" situations, but I can't stand Mitsuru 😅

tl;dr: you guys ready to get on with the rest of the series, then?!

Edit: read a bunch of posts that I can now safely read and I agree with basically everything that's been said about Hiro and the fact that he's probably wish fulfillment for the audience, only it fails spectacularly. I like his relationship with Zero Two but I don't like him as a character.

The stuff you said about Mitsuru and Kokoro strikes me as a good reading of the whole situation indeed, ayase, it's weird how the whole thing plays out.
 
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Kokoro being sexually agressive or at least more than Mitsuru was nice in the sense that it goes against her established image but her developing maternal instincts at such a young age is weird as hell.
I thought it was an interesting switch with the girl being the instigator and particularly because it was, as you mentioned, so contrary to how she had been portrayed until then. I didn't actually read Mitsuru being romantically attracted to Hiro, but more in awe of him and attracted more in a platonic sense, so didn't find it so surprising nor intimidating when Kokoro put the moves on him and felt he was attracted back to her for her genuine attention and interest, as opposed to being coerced and acquiescing. Nevertheless, will be interesting when I re-watch with this angle in mind.

Lastly, on the maternal instinct, again I wasn't really surprised at that given how it may be viewed as an exciting/enticing way to rebel against the authorities saying "thou shall not", and also how some very young children can be very maternal towards their siblings and dolls.


Edit: Arghh bugger, I forgot about the spoiler tagging, though I don't really know where to begin heh.

On a side note, how do you do the spoiler tag as opposed to blurring the text? I'm sure the same function has done either option for me before but I'm confused...
 
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I thought it was an interesting switch with the girl being the instigator and particularly because it was, as you mentioned, so contrary to how she had been portrayed until then. I didn't actually read Mitsuru being romantically attracted to Hiro, but more in awe of him and attracted more in a platonic sense, so didn't find it so surprising nor intimidating when Kokoro put the moves on him and felt he was attracted back to her for her genuine attention and interest, as opposed to being coerced and acquiescing. Nevertheless, will be interesting when I re-watch with this angle in mind.

Lastly, on the maternal instinct, again I wasn't really surprised at that given how it may be viewed as an exciting/enticing way to rebel against the authorities saying "thou shall not", and also how some very young children can be very maternal towards their siblings and dolls.

Edit: Arghh bugger, I forgot about the spoiler tagging, though I don't really know where to begin heh.

On a side note, how do you do the spoiler tag as opposed to blurring the text? I'm sure the same function has done either option for me before but I'm confused...

I don't have that reading either, which is why I dislike him so much because his reaction to the Hiro thing is pure melodrama and not convincing at all, but I can buy the situation being read like that.

To my eyes, that would be more believable than Kokoro developing maternal instincts because the writers decided she would keep a book on the details of procreation around and be seen with it every once in a while. The justification for it is theoretically there, but it's unconvincing to me.

I see your point though, and yeah, I can kinda see it your way, actually.

And the fact remains that their world has gone down the shi.tter, so who knows how they see things 🤷‍♂️

Be not afraid, my spoiler game is weak to non-existent, I'm glad I'm not alone!! 🙏 You need to use the Eye thing for spoiler brackets 👁

All said and done though, I'm still enjoying this a great deal. This would really have to take a sudden nosedive for me to not have a positive idea of it! 🤞

Final edit and such but why can't this series focus more on Goro, seriously. Goddamn.
 
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Be not afraid, my spoiler game is weak to non-existent, I'm glad I'm not alone!! 🙏 You need to use the Eye thing for spoiler brackets 👁
Ah I see, thanks. I must've used it previously but recently was thinking that's only for putting in a heading for the spoiler section or something.
All said and done though, I'm still enjoying this a great deal. This would really have to take a sudden nosedive for me to not have a positive idea of it! 🤞

Final edit and such but why can't this series focus more on Goro, seriously. Goddamn.
Heheh I hope you haven't tempted fate there as the ending is very divisive but I loved it, flaws not withstanding. A great series for me but could've been epic if it had properly followed through with some of the gender/sex politics concepts it picked up. On the lore (yes, even the ending) and the love story angle, it certainly worked for me. Also for when you've finished the series: it seems ripe for a Goro the Wanderer spin-off heh
 
I didn't actually read Mitsuru being romantically attracted to Hiro, but more in awe of him and attracted more in a platonic sense, so didn't find it so surprising nor intimidating when Kokoro put the moves on him and felt he was attracted back to her for her genuine attention and interest, as opposed to being coerced and acquiescing
I don't have that reading either, which is why I dislike him so much because his reaction to the Hiro thing is pure melodrama and not convincing at all, but I can buy the situation being read like that.
I might not have read it like that if not for the fact that Franxx is very obviously a show about sex and relationships and its metaphors are in no way subtle. When Ichigo and Ikuno are getting upset that their desired partners aren’t able to “ride” with them (and in Ichigo’s case was so upset and jealous that Hiro was enjoying “riding” with Zero Two so much) and with Futoshi acting exactly like someone whose beloved life partner has left them for someone else, it felt entirely obvious to me to read Mitsuru’s behaviour as similarly romantic or sexual in nature.

When you create such an obvious metaphor and then go “Oh, but it actually wasn’t metaphorical in this particular instance, no” it just feels like a bit of a bait-and-switch. The only other way I can read it is that Mitsuru isn’t gay, but actually has no interest in sex or relationships (I don’t believe he has even once shown any of the interest in the girls the other boys have) either due to being a late bloomer or perhaps he just doesn’t; some people don’t, after all. None of those possibilities make Kokoro’s behaviour look very good.

On Kokoro’s maternal instincts, I’m more inclined to agree with @Geriatric hedgehog here. It’s not true of all girls and women of course (and I think Franxx is at least doing a decent job of not stereotyping gender roles, we’ve even seen that the Nines don’t all pilot their Franxx in the standard male/female configuration) but I think a significant proportion of our counterparts with the matching chromosomes do have those biologically programmed in. Like, even a lot of very young girls love to play at having babies of their own to take care of and look after, that’s why baby-like dolls have always been such a popular toy.
 
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My response to FranXX episodes 16–18, individually spoiler-tagged:

You guys are the ones with the weapons and the ability to pilot them
Except at this point in events, they aren't. Their FranXX are stashed elsewhere, out of their sight and out of their reach, leaving them basically powerless. Also, they've only known authority all their lives and don't know anything else so are just forced to sit and wait.
Regarding the Kokoro/Mitsuru twist, Geriatric hedgehog summed up my own thoughts perfectly before I even had the chance to put them together:
I didn't actually read Mitsuru being romantically attracted to Hiro, but more in awe of him
on the maternal instinct, again I wasn't really surprised at that given how it may be viewed as an exciting/enticing way to rebel against the authorities saying "thou shall not", and also how some very young children can be very maternal towards their siblings and dolls.
I agree wholeheartedly with all of that.

Is this what Kokoro meant when she said she wasn't the person everyone thinks she is, being in fact a secret master emotional manipulator?
For me, absolutely not. If memory serves, what she actually said was that she's not the "kind and gentle girl" that others might see her as. What she means, I think, is that her true character is different from the image she's spent her life so far portraying, and that she's not so meek and compliant: she's willing to be a bit selfish and stick up for her own needs and, yeah, perhaps even has a bit of a rebellious streak.

The way she puts it across seems quite self-critical, though, as if it makes her a dishonest person. She also probably overestimates the difference between her outward image and her suppressed inner character: even after freeing herself and acting more according to her own wants, she still goes about things in her quiet, gentle way.

So those allowed to become adults... are castrated before puberty to stop them from having kids and make them less emotional due to lacking sex hormones and therefore easier to control?
Episode 19 will tell you all you need to know.
Nana and whatzizname
It's Hachi. 😆
Nana is Japanese for the number 7, and hachi is number 8.

And outside of the spoilers:
Utada's corker of a song, Good Night, used in the credits of Penguin Highway (though I don't think that was written specifically for the movie?)
Utada actually did write it for the film. I watched the interview with the film's director in the extras on Anime Limited's Blu-ray, and he talks a little about it.

I couldn't agree more on the quality of the song. 👍
 
how do you do the spoiler tag as opposed to blurring the text?
[ SPOILER ] [ /SPOILER ] rather than ISPOILER, add ="title goes here" inside the brackets after SPOILER to add a title or press the symbol that has the eye crossed out and the code gets added for you. Equally if you've written something you think is spoilery you can highlight the text and press the symbol and everything highlighted will be in the bracketed section.
 
Also, they've only known authority all their lives and don't know anything else so are just forced to sit and wait.
Eh, Zero Two is (understandably) anything but happy with those in authority though, and you’d have thought after Hiro got his memories back that would at least prompt a bit of soul-searching and questioning of those authorities, but they both just totally ignore it and slip into happy slice-of-life land. Like I say, nothing really against the episode but it felt so out of place given prior events.

As for my comments regarding Kokoro, don’t take my knee-jerk responses here completely seriously (they’re more of an emotional first reaction and certainly open to change given the show is still ongoing) and although I’m sure that wasn’t the intended reading of her behaviour, I do still find it a bit off-putting for the reasons I’ve stated in my previous post.
 
All on the topic of Mitsuru:
The only other way I can read it is that Mitsuru isn’t gay, but actually has no interest in sex or relationships
That's exactly the way to read it, I reckon. An important thing to remember here is that, among the Parasites, Mitsuru and Zorome are the most indoctrinated, each in their own different way.

Franxx is very obviously a show about sex and relationships
I totally agree with that point, but with the proviso that the two elements I've underlined in your quote are sometimes held in separate hands and studied separately.

I dislike him so much because his reaction to the Hiro thing is pure melodrama
It is undeniably melodramatic, I think, yeah. Even as a fan of the show, I cannot deny that. I'll play devil's advocate for a bit here, though, and try to see events from Mitsuru's perspective.

I suppose that, first off, Mitsuru had more of a struggle than anyone else when it came to living up to his reason for being. The Parasites were created by Papa to pilot FranXX. That's what Mitsuru knew, but his own inbuilt aptitude for syncing with a FranXX was low — so low, in fact, that he elected to undergo an very risky injection to increase his yellow blood cell count. The success rate is extremely poor, and the outcome is potentially fatal.

Things must've looked pretty bleak for him. Other candidates who struggled with their low aptitudes mysteriously disappeared from their home of the Garden, spirited away without warning or ceremony, never to be heard from again. Those are high stakes and must've made for a very stressful situation to have to live through, so the young Mitsuru sought to give himself something to look forward to should he be lucky enough to pull through the procedure — a light at the end of the tunnel. That light was a pact made with Hiro. Mitsuru was inspired by Hiro and looked up to him. Maybe... Maybe he could get to pilot a FranXX with him one day! What an amazing thing that would be; he would be able to fulfill his purpose and not have to disappear somewhere probably not good.

And wow, would you believe it! The procedure was a success! Mitsuru had beaten the odds and all the doubt and uncertainty had been swept away all at once. Excited by his new-found future, he ran towards that bright, shining light.

Only to see it immediately snuffed out and be plunged back into darkness. This is why Mitsuru has shunned emotional closeness with his peers ever since, and is what has made him so cold and aloof. He never wants to have to live through another situation like that ever again, where one individual can so drastically and all too easily alter his own path through life.
 
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That's exactly the way to read it, I reckon.
But if we're accepting this is the case, that definitely does make Kokoro's behaviour more dodgy, doesn't it? She basically goes "I love you and want to marry you and make a baby with you" and Mitsuru is like "Fine, I guess, if you (and Hiro, actually, he bears some of the responsibility for this) are telling me this is what boys and girls are supposed to do" which might in any other circumstances (and almost certainly if their genders were reversed) not possibly be considered a bit... groom-y if he doesn't really understand the concept or actually feel the things Kokoro does?
 
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Well, that worked actually, Neil. I suppose I understand him a bit better, considering all of that. I suppose I wasn't inclined to look at him that way because my impression wasn't very positive to begin with... He gave me the same vibes as that girl from Geass who has a thing for tables at the beginning, minus the furious masturbation, of course.
 
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Well, that worked actually, Neil. I suppose I understand him a bit better, considering all of that.
Oh wow, really? 😯
Neat.

I guess, at the end of the day, having first watched the series back in early 2018, I've just had more time to process Mitsuru's dilemma and try to look at it from different angles. I'm really pleased if that helped, though.

And I've not forgotten about your previous post, @ayase. Still more typing to be done. 😁
 
My brain is too Franxxed to think of a title

That was great. I'd have watched a whole show about Wernher and the events portrayed in this episode. Almost Ghost in the Shell levels of considering where science and technology has the potintial to lead and what it means to be human. Interesting that he rejected immortality and valued human reproduction despite being pretty amoral and unfeeling otherwise. But I can see his point that a humanity that simply exists to exist would become utterly stagnant and pointless. And judging by the society they have now, he seems to have been proven correct. He's obviously done some questionable things, but he seems as trapped in the system as the kids are, and everything he does he clearly does for his dream as well.

I was glad Zorome brought up what was certainly the major thing I was considering as the flashback progressed - What do Papa and APE see as the purpose, not only of the parasites' existence but of humanity's at this point? You've screwed up the Earth, reduced humanity to a colony species and instead of bringing them to the top, you've sent them back to the bottom tier of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs where all of their resources are invested in simply fighting for survival. I admit that I'm pretty unenthusiastic about the survival of humanity even at this point, but I'd think by that point, certainly the rational scientific minds would be thinking maybe it's just time for the whole species to call it quits and let the Klaxosaurs inherit the Earth. Back to my man Wernher, who presumably, has concocted a third way...
ERM. This was the episode you were all on about earlier, wasn't it?

::insert sigh which lasts for approximately seven seconds::

Let me do this in order, okay? Allow me to collect my thoughts as I'm typing.

Well. It might have been a plan, but it wasn't a very well thought-out plan, was it Wernher? Your fatal mistake was forgetting that you're in an anime, and as was discussed earlier, given the choice between you, with your flaws and complexity and years of planning and dedication leading up to this moment, all for her, of course the sexy monster princess is going to choose the dull as dishwater teenage audience insert over you.

But then we needed something to come between our main couple (double-entendre not actually intended on this occasion, but for a minute there I thought maybe she would, all those tentacles...) mainly to give Zero Two an opportunity to be cool again since Hiro's dullness has clearly rubbed off on her (again, not intentional). Oh no, might Princess Klaxosaur even be a better Zero Two at this point? Please get your fire back Zero Two, I don't want to have to relegate you.

So the Franxx are reverse engineered Klaxosaurs? That's cool. That makes sense. I'm not sure exactly why anyone seems particularly bothered by this revelation though.

Now then. (Remain calm. Breathe) All these mysteries they set up throughout the series. All my questions about the nature of this society and the motives of its rulers. My genuine interest to see how the kids were going to go about overthrowing this unjust system. That's the answer I'm getting, is it? Ffffffffff

So I'm four episodes from the end. I feel I can say this now, and if I'm proved wrong I am more than willing to eat my words. Darling in the Franxx is a show that does not know what the Hell it wants to be. It was sold to me (not by anyone here I hasten to add, I would have bought and watched it anyway, you bear no responsibility for my actions) as a mecha show with an added focus on romantic/sexual relationships. For the first dozen or so episodes, that was certainly what it looked and felt like it was going to be. Things were moving in the right direction, the characters and their relationships were developing in the normal way you expect characters to develop (you know, things like remembering events that had happened previously and learning from their experiences). Things made some general kind of sense.

Then in the last five or six episodes, what on Earth happened? The characters have been all over the place. Previous development has gone out of the window. Plot-points that have gone nowhere and therefore seem completely superflous were introduced and seemingly forgotten about, sometimes within the course of a single episode. And now, rather than spend the remainder of the series unravelling the mysteries of the world and building those characters and their relationships (back) up further, it appears we are going to be spending it fighting Gunbuster's space monsters following what must surely go down as one of the most epic ass-pulls in fictional history. Was this series actually written on the fly, like did they have any idea where they were going with it from one episode to the next? Because as of right now, it certainly doesn't feel like it.
And I've not forgotten about your previous post, @ayase. Still more typing to be done.
I feel even more sorry for you having just written the above post, Neil. Ever consider getting a tablet with one of those little fold-out keyboards? Your thumbs are going to be absolutely killing.
 
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Final edit and such but why can't this series focus more on Goro, seriously. Goddamn.

It's definitely not the entire reason, but there was some drama at the time the show was in production/airing where Goro's voice actor (a reasonably popular chap whose career was really taking off) became very unwell during the second half and in the end they had to do a temporary recasting, which is very rare in Japan because voice actors become very entwined with the character in the minds of fans. So they may have reduced his role more than intended in a few places while the voice actor's condition was up in the air. It affected other shows too (very noticeably the LotGH remake, where his cut-down role was glaringly obvious while he was unavailable for recording). LotGH was working off existing source material, of course, but with Franxx they had more freedom to shift scenes around or change focus. I wouldn't be surprised if it led to a few changes.

R
 
I might not have read it like that if not for the fact that Franxx is very obviously a show about sex and relationships and its metaphors are in no way subtle.
Oh yeah, I totally see where you're coming from, I just meant to say that for whatever reason I didn't happen to perceive it that way despite the overt insinuations when I watched the series previously. That's why it will be interesting when I watch Franxx again with this in mind. I suspect it's because, as you mentioned, to me he just came across very asexual and even though I interpreted him as genuinely caring for Kokoro, I feel he was voluntarily partaking in the sex & conceiving to please his partner. Like @Neil.T, I honestly don't recall Kokoro being that nasty or manipulative, regardless of how horrid her betrayal of her first partner was, but then again I think being dishonest about her feelings and stringing him along, with both eventually being miserable would have been the bigger betrayal. Or in the end maybe I'm just remembering it all wrong or with rose-tinted glasses heh.

Utada actually did write it for the film
Aaahh that is good to know and makes sense given how beautifully it closes out that movie, delivering one final gut-punch on its way out heheh. And on that matter actually, is there any chance AL will release the Eva soundtrack and Utada's Eva singles on cd? I collect those but have no intention of developing another expensive hobby in collecting vinyls so am forlornly looking at the ones currently on offer...
[ SPOILER ] [ /SPOILER ] rather than ISPOILER, add ="title goes here" inside the brackets after SPOILER to add a title or press the symbol that has the eye crossed out and the code gets added for you. Equally if you've written something you think is spoilery you can highlight the text and press the symbol and everything highlighted will be in the bracketed section.
Thanks for the info dude, much appreciated!

Also in Mitsuru, very nicely summarised @Neil.T,
I agree that though his Hiro arc is a lot of melodrama, I can completely see his juvenile interpretation of Hiro's unintentional actions as betrayal on a massive scale, certainly in that context. I was clearly a far less reasonable teen than you lot and, not unlike Mitsuru, would overanalyze and assume disloyalty/betrayal over the most retarded things back then...
Please get your fire back Zero Two
Hiro's personality rubbing off on Zero Two was certainly very irritating, given how great a character she is, though I think she perks up somewhat at the end. I have the same issues with this series, in that it picks up so many interesting concepts and just doesn't develop them in the end (though the overall plot in the vein Gunbuster/Eva/Lagaan I didn't mind and felt was hinted all along if remembering correctly, and also the protagonists' relationship certainly got me but the other characters not so much, which was disappointing).
 
Like @Neil.T, I honestly don't recall Kokoro being that nasty or manipulative, regardless of how horrid her betrayal of her first partner was, but then again I think being dishonest about her feelings and stringing him along, with both eventually being miserable would have been the bigger betrayal. Or in the end maybe I'm just remembering it all wrong or with rose-tinted glasses heh.
I don’t think she was supposed to be, but I do think the way she and Mitsuru were written (particularly Mitsuru, it’s more the way he is written that I think makes her character look worse) made it difficult for me to buy their relationship as being very real. I felt like she genuinely loved him, sure, but I never really felt like he loved her. And I don’t have anything against her for leaving Futoshi, I think people are always better off calling it quits if they're not feeling it.

I can completely see his juvenile interpretation of Hiro's unintentional actions as betrayal on a massive scale, certainly in that context. I was clearly a far less reasonable teen than you lot and, not unlike Mitsuru, would overanalyze and assume disloyalty/betrayal over the most retarded things back then...
Just as Neil seems to have helped João towards a better understanding of Mitsuru, perhaps you’ve helped open my eyes a bit there. Maybe one of the reasons I called his motivations wrongly and found his character difficult to understand is that love (and probably, money) is the only thing I can imagine would cause me that much resentment towards somebody I considered a friend, as a teenager or indeed now. Huh.

I think a major problem I have had during the second half of this series is that it seems to invite deeper analysis and questioning and then let me down with its answers. And it’s not as though I even went into the series expecting anything deep, but its initial run of episodes set that up by it striking a more serious and thoughtful tone. Hiro and Zero Two have unlocked their forgotten past. What will they do now they are reunited, powered up and in possession of their full memories? Get out their colouring pencils. What are the sinister end-goals of the Klaxosaurs and TPTB? They’re aliens fighting an intergalactic war.

Even the bright spot in these last couple of episodes, the revelation of Wernher’s story and motivations, came to an unceremonious conclusion. In that moment, when he was declaring to Klaxosaur Princess that she couldn’t pilot the Star Entity without him, I was actually quite hype. There was me thinking that having a similar couple to Hiro and Zero Two as the big bads of the series, but one-sided and forced together through necessity, would provide a nice mirror of the negative power that love and obsession can have to the central couple’s positive reinforcement of each other and render Papa & Co. suddenly irrelevant. But nope, sorry, bye lol.
 
@Rui Thank you for that info, I can't help but wonder what could've been, if circumstances had been normal.

I don't know if it's just confirmation bias on my end, but now that I know that, the way he kind of gets brushed to the side does feel sudden...

What a shame.
 
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