MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Girl

[Rui]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

No more than you're saying that it's suddenly not ok for these shows to have DVDs (and I get it, there's production costs because Manga are Starz and Starz is thick as lead but still this whole "Drop DVD" this is the lest elegant solution to the PAL DVD Problem) and yet it's perfectly fine for AoT/The Jump Triad/Psycopass to have DVDs (Which will probably not last forever anyway but I all but garentee you once the well drys up they'll still put out those shows in PAL DVD even when cost makes that inhibitive).

I'm only going to concentrate on AoT as we know the sales ratio for it and because there are very good reasons the shounen shows aren't on BD which you are ignoring. Psycho-Pass apparently sold poorly so it's more of a GLG than an AoT in this context, ridiculously.

We can safely assume that the cost of creating the DVDs for AoT and GLG is close to being exactly the same while the cost of creating the BDs is lower for GLG than it is for AoT, which they redid themselves. AoT on BD would actually be the most expensive to produce, so if they were completely ignoring sales projections and purely trying to cut costs then that should be DVD-only, not BD-only (like its extras - sorry, couldn't resist).

Even though the costs of production are higher outright, AoT will easily sell through the minimum break even point for both formats at once and turn a profit. Given its narrower appeal, GLG has a much higher cost per sale when minimum print runs and marketing costs are considered, and if you add in a huge bill for creating a flakey PAL DVD too it's going to struggle to be worth releasing at all. Manga UK are saying it's reached a point where they don't think it's viable to throw money down the drain to support a dwindling fan base on DVD. If those DVD buyers can go out and drum up enough support to make AoT's DVD outsell its BDs 10:1 tomorrow, then they'll get Manga UK's attention, but if all they're seeing is support from the BD audience when they check their preorder figures each week then what are they supposed to conclude from it?

I agree that they're dumb for not being able to get their own parent company to understand that almost nobody wants PAL conversions in 2014 but evidently they think the market is easier to deal with than their own company hierarchy.

I also think (and I've said this often) that it's faulty to assume that the average buyer is going to pick up Naruto part 8 on DVD in one hand and GLG on BD in the other and randomly choose one based on the price tag alone. The casual market that would once have done that is being savaged by online availability (or frankly by piracy, in the case of Manga UK titles, since they hate streaming so much). Today's customer is going to have a preference for which format they want and there are a heck of a lot of fans in this country who only watch the big shounen shows, so GLG isn't going to interest them even if it's at DVD resolution with a PAL conversion and cheaper price tag. There are already countless examples of niche titles which sell terribly even with aggressive pricing in place and a DVD version.

Plus, how hard would it be for anyone to go to UP1 and just pick up the US Edition for less? (And right now, as is the case with GLG?) I mean if the BR is basicaly going to be the US BR with Manga's logos all over it why not just get it stright from the source?

That's the elephant in the room with all UK releases, isn't it? No matter what Manga UK do, anyone can tell from a quick web search that the US version of GLG is already out and it's probably better than the Manga UK version is ever going to be (for one thing, it's a LE combo pack, so fans of packaging and dual format releases alike are already better catered for overseas). My answer to this question has always been to buy from the US regardless unless someone like Andrew comes along and makes the UK edition special, but for a variety of reasons some people are fiercely loyal to the idea of local versions and it's that group which represents Manga UK's entire business model these days.

R

 

[Lutga]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

The thing is though, Manga aren't stupid. While we might get frustrated at certain release strategies and a myriad of other things, at the end of the day, they're a business. If they don't function as a business and make prudent financial decisions, they're go *out* of business and then we'll just be left with MVM in terms of 'cheap' anime titles (and I use cheap in comparison with ATL's premium) model.

What would you rather have? A Manga UK that isn't always perfect, or no Manga UK at all?

We're in a process of transition - streaming is taking off. Manga will be forced to adapt. Over the next year or so I think we'll see some very interesting changes as the market shifts to cope with new methods of consumptions.

 

[-Danielle-]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

I like reading this thread

 

[ConanThe3rd]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

""

In that instance one wonders why they even picked up BT and GLG in the first instance if they were going to go about it this way. Wouldn't the ultimate cost cutting measure to just throw one's hands in the air and say "Not interested in this" like they have done with many a title in the past (stuff that could have worked even, like Sgt Frog)? Why spend the thousand (Million? I have no idea how high the number goes, just that it's high) to get the things and print the material out if they felt like it wasn't worth it?

Also on "Why a UK Market"?, at least Andrew tries to sell his version of the thing competitively and will lay things out clearly (or as much as Ol Nippon will allow him) and, yes, that leads to some horrendous delays on AL's part. Hell, they might even be close to Manga's hit/miss ratio but for the most part due to Andrew's bedside manor he and AL will always look good in comparison to Manga.

Without AL I would just use UP1 for all my purchases, get a VPN to watch US Netflix/CR and be done with whole stupid affair.

""

Following that idea then, shouldn't MVM be imploding into a load of fire right about now? They can't be impervious to the whole NTSC thing as well.

Can I have a vaguely competent Manga UK? Can I have that? Or does that fall under "No Manga at all?"

As far as Manga in the future, I'm honestly not wondering if they aren't going to be put on the market for someone else to pick up soon. Bleach is ending, Naruto is slowing disappearing up it's own arse, leaving One Piece and DBZ which have to both contend with the fact that they've been out in the US market for ages and AoT which is a very finite resource until a second season airs and gets put though the Nihon-Gaijin-Licence-Emancipation Grinder.

 

[Rui]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

Also on "Why a UK Market"?, at least Andrew tries to sell his version of the thing competitively and will lay things out clearly (or as much as Ol Nippon will allow him) and, yes, that leads to some horrendous delays on AL's part. Hell, they might even be close to Manga's hit/miss ratio but for the most part due to Andrew's bedside manor he and AL will always look good in comparison to Manga.

AL are also still quite new and polite, so I can forgive delays (even though Andrew has been around for ages, getting a new company going with some of the big titles he has lined up is a lot of work for a small team). So long as they're taking on feedback and going in the right direction, I have a good feeling about them - and thanks to AL we're getting hardcore US fans seriously envying UK releases for the first time in a long while. Delays to avoid glitches are especially forgivable as I hate paying for something which ends up not working properly; something that happens way too often in this hobby.

Following that idea then, shouldn't MVM be imploding into a load of fire right about now? They can't be impervious to the whole NTSC thing as well.

I believe that the folks at MVM now release NTSC discs if there is no Australian version for them to use. They seem a lot more flexible since they're small and relatively in control.

R

 

[elaniel]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

While I do not hold an interest in either of these titles, it's always nice to see more titles licensed for the UK. I have no doubt that Manga will still release DVD's for those who still purchase them, but for bigger titles. It seems to me these titles were a case of Blu-Ray or not at all as it wasn't cost effective to convert to PAL for the DVD. Wasn't the original hold back on Blu-Ray for Manga the cost of the replication originally? So it's interesting to see how cheap that's become compared to converting to PAL for DVD.

I'm sure Starz is the reason they can't do NTSC DVD's too. I very rarely buy anime on DVD anymore, but can imagine the market has gotten smaller (particularly those who buy PAL DVD.) but certain titles they can still cater to (IE: Bleach, Naruto).

 

[Shiroi Hane]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

I've never understood Manga's insistence on PAL conversions. They're totally unnecessary.

Frankly, I don't believe Manga understand it either - it's something mandated by Starz/Anchor Bay or whoever up that chain.

I believe that the folks at MVM now release NTSC discs if there is no Australian version for them to use. They seem a lot more flexible since they're small and relatively in control.

They also release NTSC discs if, as is happening increasingly, the Australian version is NTSC.

 

[anime_andrew]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

I think a few people are looking at this backwards.

Manga UK is doing this experiment with Ben-To and GLG not in spite of the fact that they're niche titles, but because they're niche titles. I'm openly critical of Manga (and especially Jerome) most of the time but he explained it quite clearly in the video and his position is completely consistent with everything Manga UK have said in the past.

1. It now costs Manga UK more to produce DVD than it does for them to produce BD. They can clone the US/Aussie BDs in a trice, but with DVD they have to pay people to create brand new materials, and these materials often introduce creative new glitches which didn't exist on the foreign versions.
2. Everyone else is moving away from PAL DVD so this situation is only going to get worse, not better. Creating the new DVD masters also increases the time they have to wait after the US release, cannibalising their sales further.
3. Anime in the UK is a niche market. Having two competing formats for incredibly niche titles that will only sell 500 copies in total combined is not financially viable when physical media is subject to minimum print runs.
4. Big titles like Attack on Titan are obviously going to outsell the best niche titles on both formats regardless, so producing DVDs and BDs for these to get them into the hands of as many fans as possible is a wise move. If a mainstream hit like Attack on Titan on BD is outselling DVD 5:1 even without it being exclusive to BD, it's a strong sign that the market is moving on.

Think about it; if more people are buying Manga UK BDs than DVDs already, and we already know that the BDs cost fans more than the DVDs, the market isn't likely to shy away from this. Some of the DVD fans will refuse to buy or switch to importing, others will make the jump up to BD; no matter what that split turns out to be it's probably not going to do Manga UK any more harm than all of their DVD-only titles have in the past, except this way they're making more money out of the deal.

-Danielle- noted BD-only people can still watch DVDs, just not in their desired quality. That's a very fair point, but it's already apparent from the criticism of the DVD-only titles in the release thread each week that it's splitting the market in two and driving the BD people to imports. The BD people are the early adopters, the ones who spend a lot on brand new releases instead of waiting for deals, so that's a big problem for Manga; they make most of their profits on preorders, not on savvy shoppers who want to save money.

Although everyone who can play BD can also play DVD, not everyone in that position wants to. As well as the video and audio being worse than legal streams, DVD-only releases have been plagued by poor PAL conversions, missing extras and other issues; they're simply not desirable to a certain audience when overseas versions exist. I'd take a NTSC DVD over no release at all, but I flat out won't buy Manga UK's PAL conversions any more after all the money I've wasted replacing them with US editions over the years.

On the other reasonable point that not everyone has a HDTV, I understand that. However, I would wager that almost everyone reading this has a HD monitor, and laptops can use USB BD drives if you aren't able to install an internal one. I completely sympathise with being in a position where technology advances before you're ready to and forces you to spend money you didn't want to - I'm still using my Nintendo DS even though I'm deeply jealous of its successors, and my phone is ancient.

I would be more than happy for Manga UK to release Ben-To on DVD, BD, LD, VHS and every other format under the sun, in a hundred different languages, but if they say it doesn't make commercial sense to do it then it becomes a choice between getting fewer niche releases at all to cater for the DVD-only crowd or moving with the times. Combo packs are a good solution in the US, but in the UK they'd incur all of the drawbacks of a separate DVD release and nobody would want to pay extra for the format they don't want. We've seen the arguments against them raised dozens of times and the UK market isn't big enough for the distributors to be able to absorb the cost of mastering the second disc like they can in the US.

(One last point, I doubt that Manga UK (or Kaze) are even allowed to release BDs of some of those mainstream shounen titles yet in our tiny market when it would undercut in places they care more about, and they'd require Manga UK to master the BDs from scratch, so it's not the same thing at all.)

R

I'm going to chime in here as I figure folks would be curious about costs etc as I figure I can be of use . Matching Rui's points here with some insight from inside the industry:

1. The interesting thing is if Manga did NTSC discs it would cost LESS to do both BD + DVD in the UK if they were willing to manage the materials. This is a move they are slowly making but basically they have the same ability to do what we do now (i.e. author our own discs out of house) but just don't because it's easier to get someone else to take all the work and QC. Day 1 I refused to do that for every work as it's both lazy and loses you control, we did it for HAL out of care though.

2. Again I'm not sure on this delay between US & UK. For new titles if negotiated there's no reason for a huge delay except due to companies not releasing the dub - so there's some cases this is an issue but usually it should not be - definitely not on older titles.

3. Physically it is - the more work I do with people like Netflix though the more I see potential on digital for growth so I'm actually strangely positive for DVD / BD. I'm also yet to see many that do 500 combined - a few do but most do at least 1,000 combined by end of Year 1 at latest.

4. BD is outselling DVD at least 3:1 whatever their place on the chain - Blood Lad outsells on BD to DVD, KLK outsells on BD to DVD, Cowboy Bebop outsells on BD to DVD even in two parts BD vs 1 part DVD. It's really just that DVD is in it's death throes - which I'd say will last for 1-2 years. I've certainly considered phasing out DVD unless we can do it as a complete anyway from 2015 onwards. Big titles will die slower on DVD than niche it's true though.

For BD of Shonen work - as many haven't had BD in Japan, that's likely why you don't see them yet here .

Overall I find the move interesting as it's the right move for the wrong reasons and I think the titles in question will perform as well as they would with a DVD too, but the issue is I'm not sure that's going to be particularly stellar...

AP

 

[anime_andrew]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

The thing is though, Manga aren't stupid. While we might get frustrated at certain release strategies and a myriad of other things, at the end of the day, they're a business. If they don't function as a business and make prudent financial decisions, they're go *out* of business and then we'll just be left with MVM in terms of 'cheap' anime titles (and I use cheap in comparison with ATL's premium) model.

What would you rather have? A Manga UK that isn't always perfect, or no Manga UK at all?

We're in a process of transition - streaming is taking off. Manga will be forced to adapt. Over the next year or so I think we'll see some very interesting changes as the market shifts to cope with new methods of consumptions.

I think the product Manga outputs - whoever had it would do it in a similar format. They're not unique in that sense and they're not stupid but hey.

As an aside - if I was picking up the volume Manga x Funimation did, you'd see a whole range of the Manga UK modelled releases alongside what we do already. You can't force everything through the collector's model even if you have a digital release too and I could name normally 35-75% of Manga's monthly output that would fail in the ATL model.

Doing good business and good by fans is one in the same in this case - understanding what is best for the title vs market realities. Personal belief is that a percentage of Manga titles (AoT and FMA Brotherhood included) deserved better releases than they have received in the UK actually on initial release. Which isn't to say the final versions you see now shouldn't happen too - but initial release should have been something collector's could be proud of.

Also worth noting is I am certain Manga wishes that too - but when you share production with the rest of the company it's hard to persuade people pumping 10-50k units of titles out that it's worth doing 1.5-3k collector's parts.

AP

 

[Rui]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

Thanks Andrew, that's some really interesting insight! I had no idea that DVD was dying out so quickly here after its initial struggle to pick up momentum; I'd have guessed it would be doing well for flashy new titles with a lot of attention from the otaku crowd like Kill la Kill, but if those others are also dominating on BD there's obviously been a big shift forwards. The improvements in streaming access probably contributes too since once people start getting used to anime in HD, it's harder to go back (especially when you're paying for a downgrade).

It's good to hear that the Netflix projects have shown promise

Aside from their steadfast refusal to work with NTSC, I think another thing that hurts Manga UK is that it feels as though they are pretty much a local distributor for the US companies at this point rather than proactively seeking things out themselves and taking risks as they used to, and even limiting themselves to titles other companies have produced the materials for they're further limited by not being able to acquire certain shows at all due to corporate relationships. Conan asked why Manga UK even acquire titles they don't think will sell enough to support a dual format release and I'm guessing that they don't have as much choice when they're depending on the US and Australia so often. Not every show can be an Attack on Titan.

(They did recently manage to get those One Piece films, but even with no competition on the market I don't want to buy PAL DVDs of films which I know will almost certainly get proper BDs from FUNimation one day. In fact, I don't want to buy PAL DVDs of films at all now that it's 2014.)

One other thing I will say about Manga UK is that I find it very disappointing how difficult it is to get actual news out of them about the product even though they spend a lot of time on promotion and fan interaction. I've lost count of how many people have asked about the second part of Attack on Titan by now and the reviews for part one attest to how confused everyone is about the show's release format here. Why did we know more about the US release months before it went on sale even though we're region locked out of FUNimation trailers?

As a fan, I don't want to see competitions and social 'banter', I want gorgeous sample pictures and specifications first and foremost which clearly show what I'm getting if I place an order. This is something that Anime Limited and Aniplex USA (and pretty much every Japanese distributor) really get right. Even if it's a humble standard edition, knowing what's going to be on the disc well in advance is very important and it has a direct relationship to people opening their wallets.

R, a frequent victim of gorgeous product shots

 

[Lutga]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

I think part of the problem is, like you point out, Manga aren't actually creating these products from scratch - they're essentially just localising existing products, so are very much in-submission to what is done elsewhere. I kind of almost feel that part of the reason they resists going too in-depth re. product details is that they know they'd be fighting a losing battle re. fan expectations. Some of these shows must be operating on shoe-string margins in terms of how much cash they make back off them - so they must be being crippled by stuff like BBFC costs for stuff that doesn't sell well.

 

[Rui]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

Definitely. Still, even with the restrictions they have I'm not sure how it's helping them to have a bunch of Attack on Titan fans confused about whether there's a part two coming (plenty of reviews say this after the incorrect printing on the slipcase made it seem as though it was only for the first set) and not sure whether to import the US version for the extras which may - or may not - be included in the regular edition of Manga UK's part two. It's so shifty.

Similarly, misleading people by calling a thin cardboard slipcase a 'collector's box' may yield more sales at the start but nobody who feels ripped off is ever going to blind buy from Manga UK a second time. If they just called it what it is or made it more clear that it's a cheap slipcase, people would have less reason to complain. I don't mind Aniplex USA slipcases because they don't make a huge song and dance about how much value they add (that and they actually look nice, and aren't misprinted advertisements for Manga UK in disguise as collectibles).

R

 

[Lutga]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

I'd love to see Manga do a proper rescue re-release in 2015, especially as their release schedule for newer shows seems to be slowing down.

Code Geass was one of their biggest performers in recent years, and there are so many incredible shows out there that they could pick up, dust down and put out. A nicely done rescue could garnish them with a lot of consumer faith in a shifting market.

I know they've talked before about old shows being 'used up' properties - eg. they sold all they ever would the first time round - but surely some of them would sell more than some of the less 'essential' titles they've been releasing recently.

 

[Mangaranga]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

I'd love to see Manga do a proper rescue re-release in 2015, especially as their release schedule for newer shows seems to be slowing down.

Judging by how they're treating their larger titles like Attack on Titan (Stripping extras to DVD, That "Collectors Edition" and the dodgy subtitles), and their shoddy self disc authoring (No songs subs in signs/songs track, inability to show two lines of text simultaneously and garbage Chapter markings), I'd much rather they left it to people who know what they're doing when it comes to releasing titles - and then cloning that release. As much as I wanted it last year, I highly doubt they'd be able to do a decent BD release of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex due to the aforementioned issues as well as the video being 1080i.

Code Geass was one of their biggest performers in recent years, and there are so many incredible shows out there that they could pick up, dust down and put out. A nicely done rescue could garnish them with a lot of consumer faith in a shifting market.

Code Geass was a Kaze title, not Manga, and it wasn't a nicely done release either. It was low quality with 25 episodes over two discs, and as a result of that it was dirt cheap. The majority of the UK fanbase won't buy something unless it's dirt cheap, and given that it was two complete series it's hardly surprising it sold so well. I'm still personally waiting for a decent release from Funi before rewatching it.

I know they've talked before about old shows being 'used up' properties - eg. they sold all they ever would the first time round - but surely some of them would sell more than some of the less 'essential' titles they've been releasing recently.

Depends on the show, and also whether the title is OOP or not. Things like Cowboy Bebop and Elfen Lied sold well when they were re-issued presumably because they are not only well known and popular, but were also absent from the UK market for quite a while. People jumped at the opportunity to finally own the show, and in the case of Bebop, the at the time Definitive version. I go back to Stand Alone Complex since it's one of Manga's most known titles they still own, but if they were to re-release SAC on BD they'd probably end up with loads of people bitching about the price due to the DVD Boxes still being in print.

 

[Lutga]

Re: MangaUK Going Blu-Ray Only With Ben-To And Good Luck Gir

Going back to the Code Geass thing - yes, many said it was poor quality due to having so many eps crammed on the discs - but equally, that price was pretty damn enticing to more casual fans. Other cheaply priced Manga releases have done very well recently too (eg. High School of the Dead - and yes, I know these are both popular shows, but the price does help too - both have been in the Amazon anime top sellers pretty much since their release).

That's the game they're in - cheap and cheerful releases, in an effort to sell as many copies as possible. But if something falls out of that equation (eg. sales dropping) then they need to adjust part of the equation, eg. make the titles cheaper / license more attractive titles / up the packaging quality.