Legality of Downloading

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Chaz said:
Oh dear, Mutsumi's going into politics... Only people who love red tape can talk so enthusiastically about the definitions to the crimes "Illegal Downloading" and "Stealing." :p

I prefer the simple terms of thing: if you take it without owners's permission, it's stealing (physical or creditable). Whether it's electronical, an idea or an object makes no difference, and I hate it when we have to catergorise things so frivolously.
It may be technically right to label them differently, but as I see it, taking something is still taking it.
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You are not taking, you are duplicating. That is why it is not stealing, because you are not taking anything from the 'victim', merely copying it without permission.

Answer me this: how is it any different to downloading a TV show if your friend records it off the TV for you and gives you a copy of it?

ilmaes: Stealing and copying without permission are blatantly and obviously different in ways so clear to me that I might question the intelligence of those who disagree. However, I know you are not all idiots and I respect that some of you just have a different opinion of what is correct in this instance. Nobody is forced to respect my view on this, but if you try to be condescending or otherwise attempt to talk down at me I will see that you fail. I don't care about changing anyone else's views here so just agree to disagree if you've nothing positive to contribute.

As for the DBZ boxset thing, that is because I consider the amount of fuss being made about the Dragonboxes to be bordering on ridiculous. I never denied that they were better than the orange boxsets, just that the differences were no big deal. Do you really want to restart that discussion though?

By the way I also quite enjoy arguing over the internet with people like yourself. I've nothing against you personally no matter how much you may disagree with my views, so please continue, and feel free to speak your mind, as there is nothing you can say worse than I've heard elsewhere. The is teh intarnetz after all, and never before has the ability to communicate been used so wastefully.

And yes, I probably am older than many here, but not as much as you might assume.
 
Mutsumi said:
Answer me this: how is it any different to downloading a TV show if your friend records it off the TV for you and gives you a copy of it?
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you realise that's illegal too

read your manuals
 
Mutsumi said:
ilmaesHowever, I know you are not all idiots and I respect that some of you just have a different opinion of what is correct in this instance.
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That's the thing, it's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of the facts of the law. I'm not arguing with you, I'm explaining to you that you are wrong.
 
Mutsumi said:
Chaz said:
Oh dear, Mutsumi's going into politics... Only people who love red tape can talk so enthusiastically about the definitions to the crimes "Illegal Downloading" and "Stealing." :p

I prefer the simple terms of thing: if you take it without owners's permission, it's stealing (physical or creditable). Whether it's electronical, an idea or an object makes no difference, and I hate it when we have to catergorise things so frivolously.
It may be technically right to label them differently, but as I see it, taking something is still taking it.
Click to expand...

You are not taking, you are duplicating. That is why it is not stealing, because you are not taking anything from the 'victim', merely copying it without permission.

Answer me this: how is it any different to downloading a TV show if your friend records it off the TV for you and gives you a copy of it?
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If you were the person taping, here's the sitch:
The broadcaster has an agreement to show a programme to the public for customer's viewing. The customer has an agreement to view them and, because they have access to the show anyways, they can tape it for their own re-viewing. The taped programme is now a responsibility of the owner to use how they see fit privately (not public viewing - like cinemas). So if they lend a tape to someone for private viewing, it's not a breach of agreement between anyone.

Now duplicating and taking something that isn't agreed on by the broadcaster/company, i.e. the programme, is still taking something you shouldn't. You originally take the programme to copy it, and then you make a duplicate. Both are therefore obtained illegaly, as the original act is stealing. It's not like you do something bad like stealing and then when you copy it, it's a neutral or good act. It's still a bad thing.

And when you download a copy of the illegal download, you're just continuing the original crime. You just have to be stealing with a middle-man being a distributor.
 
ilmaestro said:
Mutsumi said:
ilmaesHowever, I know you are not all idiots and I respect that some of you just have a different opinion of what is correct in this instance.
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That's the thing, it's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of the facts of the law. I'm not arguing with you, I'm explaining to you that you are wrong.
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Likewise I am explaining to you that purely by the definition of stealing, illegal downloading is not stealing. It is unauthorised duplication. You can label it as stealing to make it easier for the uncultured masses to digest, but it still does not adhere to the definition of what it is to steal. That is all there is to it.
 
If it's unauthorised it's still an illegal practice. The duplication of material and the consequences of doing so is warned about in every single VHS/DVD/BD/any other medium. You can gloss over with whatever technicalities you want, but it's still illegal because the law has classified activities that you seem to protest about as illegal, regardless of whether they're actually stealing or not.
 
Maxon said:
If it's unauthorised it's still an illegal practice. The duplication of material and the consequences of doing so is warned about in every single VHS/DVD/BD/any other medium. You can gloss over with whatever technicalities you want, but it's still illegal because the law has classified activities that you seem to protest about as illegal, regardless of whether they're actually stealing or not.
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Yup, and I've said earlier in this thread I acknowledge that it is illegal, hence I refer to it as illegal downloading. I'm not trying to convince people it is legal. :p It is not stealing, however, though it is a different crime.
 
Mutsumi said:
ilmaestro said:
Mutsumi said:
ilmaesHowever, I know you are not all idiots and I respect that some of you just have a different opinion of what is correct in this instance.
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That's the thing, it's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of the facts of the law. I'm not arguing with you, I'm explaining to you that you are wrong.
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Likewise I am explaining to you that purely by my definition of stealing, illegal downloading is not stealing.
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I've fixed it to help you see your error.
 
Just so you guys know, gang rape is also a crime.

Let Mutley think whatever he wants.

OT: I don't care about the law unless I get caught. So, until I get taken to court, I'm good. I'm wise/uncaring enough to not let thoughts of right and wrong cloud my mind's eye.
 
If I can jump in here I'd like to say that while illegal downloading is indeed...well, illegal and in turn theft, there is no way to enforce the illegality of the situation. There may be a few cases here and there of people actually being prosecuted for illegal downloading but it would only be a minor fraction fo the amount who actually do it. This is where I feel the subject becomes less of a technical legal argument and more of a moral argument. With no enforcement of these laws it is up to us to self regulate and decisions will ultimately be made on personal/moral opinions. Now, I personally feel that downloading has some great positive aspects, if it's used in the correct manner. I've always used downloading as a means of trying new things, of sampling them. I might download something because I want to see if I'll like it and don't want to waste X amount of £ buying something that I then despise. So i download something, say an album or stream the first episode of an anime I'm interested in, if I like it I buy it, because I feel that it is fulfilling my responisbilities as a fan in order to properly enjoy the priveleges of being a fan. If I were to only download things and not purchase them I would be directly affecting the income and possible future work of the creators and in turn if those creations didn't earn any money because no one bought them then the creator is going to find it difficult to find someone willing to finance their future creations and I have effectively denied myself, as well as others, the chance of experiencing and enjoying any of these once potential future creations.
 
i would say this

if you were to download say a ps1 emulator, and then a game that has been out of print for some 15 years, i fail to see that as illegal, because if you were to buy the game second hand anyway the company still doesn't make any money

i guess it's the same with anime, something that has been out of print for years or hasn't been released in the uk yet, i mean, who is honestly going to give a **** if you torrent all of Rurouni Kenshin? no one to be honest
 
I think hypocritical people to say downloading is that bad when so many people are buying the same product second hand. Buying second hand is worse than actual downloading as the creators are receiving no royalties and you are spending money which could be spent towards new releases.

I would argue having this pirate network as near essential for development for Anime & Manga. Without people downloading the scans & fansubs they would never got the attention of the masses to sell. We only demand & want certain show because of either experiencing an illegal version or the buzz caused by the people who have experienced said illegal versions.

Certain forms of entertainment are only possible to find in second hand form these days. This especially true for lot of video games, should you pay obscene prices for these titles when your money could be better spent on new releases? Take something like persona 4 which was selling for £14.99 brand new several months ago but is now out of stock everywhere. It selling on Ebay for near enough £30 second hand version, people are profiting on release which simply aren't right. How do we know someone has not brought mass bulk of persona 4 for £14.99 so they can in future selling for £40 new on eBay and make a massive profit.

If there a retail version still available you should buy it instead of downloading it but when this is not possible, sometime downloading is the only option without being ripped off by lot greedy people.

I have gone slightly off track but interesting question pop ups:

Can it be called stealing when there no actual retail version to buy?

Persona 4 is one example of this another would be:

Panzer Dragoon Sagas is no longer available to buy for the saturn and sega have said themselves they have lost the source codes so a re-release is not possible unless the source codes can be found . So is it stealing in this case to download this game?
 
memorium said:
i would say this

if you were to download say a ps1 emulator, and then a game that has been out of print for some 15 years, i fail to see that as illegal, because if you were to buy the game second hand anyway the company still doesn't make any money

i guess it's the same with anime, something that has been out of print for years or hasn't been released in the uk yet, i mean, who is honestly going to give a **** if you torrent all of Rurouni Kenshin? no one to be honest
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that one depends. technically speaking though, after 15 years it becomes freeware and no one owns the rights to it, so you can do as you wish with it
 
Dave said:
I think hypocritical people to say downloading is that bad when so many people are buying the same product second hand. Buying second hand is worse than actual downloading as the creators are receiving no royalties and you are spending money which could be spent towards new releases.
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What royalties are the creators receiving when someone downloads a torrent of a commercially available DVD? And it's entirely possible that a person who sells a DVD will spend the proceeds on new anime. I can't possibly see how buying second hand is worse than downloading.

I would argue having this pirate network as near essential for development for Anime & Manga. Without people downloading the scans & fansubs they would never got the attention of the masses to sell. We only demand & want certain show because of either experiencing an illegal version or the buzz caused by the people who have experienced said illegal versions.
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First of all, anime was selling before the advent of digisubs. There are more fans then ever due to the availablity of digisubs, yes, but it's not translating into sales, which have been falling steadily over the last decade. Second, there's a distinction between downloading a fansub of a work that's not commercially available in one's language and downloading a torrent of a DVD that is. And this is how the discussion started--with ayase saying he wouldn't "steal" anime available in the UK. Talking about fansubs and out-of-print videogames isn't terribly relevant.
 
Just to remind people the fecking obvious, making a duplication of something is not the same as taking it, therefore making a duplication without permission is not stealing or theft. Still a crime, just not that one.
 
piracyisnottheft.jpg


Is this what you mean Mutsumi?
 
Probably. Why he's getting so excited over the (mis)use of a single word is rather baffling, though.

And remember, kids, bold means listen because I know what I'm talking about and you don't!
 
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