Legality of Downloading

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Mutsumi

Guild Member
Re: Anime Boxsets

ayase said:
Mutsumi said:
ayase said:
I don't steal anime available to buy in the UK.
Stealing anime that is not available to buy in the UK would cost more than simply ordering it online because to steal it you would have to go to somewhere abroad that is selling it and shoplift there, or rob someone who has imported it here.
I... do hope that was sarcasm Mutsumi. That or you are somewhat naive in the ways of P2P.

Packaging matters to me because when I feel I'm not getting something I enjoy owning for my money, I'd rather not have paid for the cost of the disc mastering, duplication, BBFC fees, plastic box, piece of paper etc. and just had the files on my computer. Basically if they are just going for content, then they should just sell the content via download - but not in crap quality or costing more than the DVDs as per iTunes - where's the sense in that?

It is naive to consider illegal downloading to be stealing when it quite clearly is not. If I went to an art gallery and took a photo of the original actual Mona Lisa using a really amazing high res camera, then used that to make a copy which I then hang in my living room, did I steal the painting? If I record a movie on TV I am making a copy of it at no expense to those who own the rights to it, which is not stealing. You can only steal physical things because a requirement of stealing is that you take something from someone and afterwards they no longer have that particular item you have stolen. Illegal downloading is not stealing. Never said it was legal or ok, just it is not stealing.
 

ayase

State Alchemist
Now you're just being pedantic. In that case, anything other than stealing the master copy, or the animation cels which were used to make it isn't stealing either, since the DVDs themselves are just a copies as well. :p

What you're stealing when you download is intellectual property, not physical property. It's still stealing because you're getting someone else's work without paying them for it. For example, you might be stealing from Optimum Entertainment if you stole a physical DVD of My Neighbour Totoro, but you'd be stealing from Studio Ghibli even if you just downloaded.
 

chaos

The Boss
Re: Anime Boxsets

Mutsumi said:
It is naive to consider illegal downloading to be stealing when it quite clearly is not. If I went to an art gallery and took a photo of the original actual Mona Lisa using a really amazing high res camera, then used that to make a copy which I then hang in my living room, did I steal the painting? If I record a movie on TV I am making a copy of it at no expense to those who own the rights to it, which is not stealing. You can only steal physical things because a requirement of stealing is that you take something from someone and afterwards they no longer have that particular item you have stolen. Illegal downloading is not stealing. Never said it was legal or ok, just it is not stealing.
If that makes you feel less guilty :p
 

Mutsumi

Guild Member
ayase said:
Now you're just being pedantic. In that case, anything other than stealing the master copy, or the animation cels which were used to make it isn't stealing either, since the DVDs themselves are just a copies as well. :p
DVDs are physical copies which the shop selling them will have paid money for. Steal from them and they have one less DVD than they had before. They are financially the worse for it and that is the harm that stealing does.

Ok, first point beaten, next:
ayase said:
What you're stealing when you download is intellectual property, not physical property.
No, you are not. Lets say I were to download an episode of Dragonball Z. Is it now my intellectual property? Nope.

Two down, next:
ayase said:
It's still stealing because you're getting someone else's work without paying them for it.
Guess we better stop using the radio since we don't pay for the music. Youtube will have to go, as will Google image search, since we don't pay for the images. The world is full of ways to enjoy someone else's work without paying for it. If doing so does not cost them any money then it does them no harm.


ayase said:
For example, you might be stealing from Optimum Entertainment if you stole a physical DVD of My Neighbour Totoro, but you'd be stealing from Studio Ghibli even if you just downloaded.
No, you would only be stealing from the previous owner, usually the shop selling it. They and they alone own the disc because they bought it from the publisher.


chaos: Of course I don't feel guilty. I barely download and when I do later buy it when or if it gets a release on region 1. I don't feel like I actually 'have' a series until I own a physical copy.
 
Mutsumi said:
If doing so does not cost them any money then it does them no harm.
I think this point is arguable. Say someone's browsing the DVD section in HMV or an online store and decides they want a £40 box set. But as they reach the counter or checkout stage they think, "hold on, I could download this for nothing and spend the money on booze instead". Does that not do harm to both the retailer and distributor? They've not had money taken away from them as such, and therefore it might not be accurate to call it stealing, but they have lost a sale.

Regarding films on TV and songs on the radio, do the stations not have to pay for broadcast rights? This would come from advertising revenue or subscription fees, so people are paying for it, just not directly. A more apt comparision would be someone leeching off their neighbour's internet connection; they're receiving something of value and paying nothing.
 

chaos

The Boss
Mutsumi said:
ayase said:
What you're stealing when you download is intellectual property, not physical property.
No, you are not. Lets say I were to download an episode of Dragonball Z. Is it now my intellectual property? Nope.
You're stealing their right to make money out royalties.

Mutsumi said:
ayase said:
It's still stealing because you're getting someone else's work without paying them for it.
Guess we better stop using the radio since we don't pay for the music. Youtube will have to go, as will Google image search, since we don't pay for the images. The world is full of ways to enjoy someone else's work without paying for it. If doing so does not cost them any money then it does them no harm.
Radio is paid for. To have a legal radio means you pay the artits for the right to play their songs. All radio collect royalties per execution, except the pirate radios (and virtually all online ones).
On Youtube, the intellectual property belongs to the user who posted, therefore by publishing it, you're allowing youtube users to view it, without collecting any royalties on it.
Google image search has a mechanism to to prevent copryrigthed material from going into it, they get anything that is not marked "protected" because of the premise that whoever post images online is giving up on their copyrights.

Mutsumi said:
chaos: Of course I don't feel guilty. I barely download and when I do later buy it when or if it gets a release on region 1. I don't feel like I actually 'have' a series until I own a physical copy.
You can steal ideas, dude. That's where the industrial spionage came into place, for instance. To my right there is a chinese wall. In there, no mobiles are allowed and all communications there are recorded.
People who work there are not allowed to use the privileged information they gain or to pass it on to others. This is pretty serious business and for instance, if you know in advance about a company doing well or bad before everyone else, you could make a fortune literally overnight.
 

Mutsumi

Guild Member
You cannot technically steal ideals. What you are referring to is copying someone else's idea. They still have their idea, but you have copied it.

Anyway, the only reason they've tried to criminalise downloading is because they couldn't stop the people distributing the files. They are the ones committing the crime by distributing copyrighted material without the required permissions.
 

Ryo Chan

Symphogear
right, Radio is paid for by comercials and licencing fees

youtube has just lost it's right to show any warner registered music so expect that to disapear soon

and how is downloading not stealing? you're saying that artists should work for free and not get paid? why don't we all just work 24/7 cause if that's the way the world works i see no reason we should have entertainment of any kind
 

Mutsumi

Guild Member
Ryo Chan said:
right, Radio is paid for by comercials and licencing fees

youtube has just lost it's right to show any warner registered music so expect that to disapear soon

and how is downloading not stealing? you're saying that artists should work for free and not get paid? why don't we all just work 24/7 cause if that's the way the world works i see no reason we should have entertainment of any kind

The only reason they've tried to criminalise downloading is because they couldn't stop the people distributing the files. They are the ones committing the crime by distributing copyrighted material without the required permissions. As consumers we're just a load of fish, and the people who distribute copyrighted stuff for free online are the people dangling bait in the water that might lead us away from the fishing nets of the copyright holders. Since they cannot stop them dangling the bait, they blame the fish for taking something that is on offer.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stealing

As the above link clearly defines, downloading is NOT stealing.
 

Ryo Chan

Symphogear
i don't know whats worse, the facts your promoting theaft, or that you feel no remorse for people who that kind of attitude is hurting
 

Jaymii

Baka Ranger
No, downloading isn't stealing, but downloading copyrighted files is stealing... Also, a crime is not a crime unless labelled as such - and in this case, its clear that downloading has been labelled as such.
 

ayase

State Alchemist
Mutsumi said:
The only reason they've tried to criminalise downloading is because they couldn't stop the people distributing the files. They are the ones committing the crime by distributing copyrighted material without the required permissions. As consumers we're just a load of fish, and the people who distribute copyrighted stuff for free online are the people dangling bait in the water that might lead us away from the fishing nets of the copyright holders. Since they cannot stop them dangling the bait, they blame the fish for taking something that is on offer.
Now that's just ridiculous. So would you also say "Don't blame people who knowingly purchase stolen merchandise - it's the fault of the thieves for tempting them by offering it to them at a cheaper price than the shops they stole it from"? It makes sense to stop the original thieves of course, but seriously, I'd like to think we have more capacity to make informed decisions than fish (I could be wrong, of course)...

I download some anime illegally. I admit that it is stealing as I am not compensating the creators for their hard work. I admit that I am no better than the people who upload it for doing so - If I was, I wouldn't download it in the first place and would simply swim on by.
 

chaos

The Boss
Mutsumi said:
The only reason they've tried to criminalise downloading is because they couldn't stop the people distributing the files. They are the ones committing the crime by distributing copyrighted material without the required permissions. As consumers we're just a load of fish, and the people who distribute copyrighted stuff for free online are the people dangling bait in the water that might lead us away from the fishing nets of the copyright holders. Since they cannot stop them dangling the bait, they blame the fish for taking something that is on offer.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stealing

As the above link clearly defines, downloading is NOT stealing.
MASSIVE FAIL Mutsumi!

"2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment."
Straight from your link you provided... By DL illegal anime you're using (viewing) anime without acquiring the right to use it (buying it), therefore you're appropriating without right :p

You disappoint me.
 

Mutsumi

Guild Member
chaos said:
Mutsumi said:
The only reason they've tried to criminalise downloading is because they couldn't stop the people distributing the files. They are the ones committing the crime by distributing copyrighted material without the required permissions. As consumers we're just a load of fish, and the people who distribute copyrighted stuff for free online are the people dangling bait in the water that might lead us away from the fishing nets of the copyright holders. Since they cannot stop them dangling the bait, they blame the fish for taking something that is on offer.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stealing

As the above link clearly defines, downloading is NOT stealing.
MASSIVE FAIL Mutsumi!

"2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment."
Straight from your link you provided... By DL illegal anime you're using (viewing) anime without acquiring the right to use it (buying it), therefore you're appropriating without right :p

You disappoint me.

No, I read that. "etc" is not a carte blanche to insert anything you like. The definition you have highlighted refers to plagiarism and the like. Nice try though.


Ryo chan, I stated briefly in one of my previous posts that I am not encouraging downloading or suggesting that it is legal. It is just not stealing, its a different crime, and became a crime after they couldn't stop the uploaders to any great effect. Piracy is a more accurate term for illegal downloading I believe, but I'll have to check my definitions before I commit to that one.
 

ilmaestro

State Alchemist
btw Mutsu, I hope you get arrested for... well, anything, really, and try to argue your way out of it via links to an online dictionary.

But, to keep it within your comfort zone, I'll quote the relevant part:

"–adjective
3. given to or characterized by theft"

The crime that you commit when you download anime is Intellectual Property Theft.

It doesn't matter that you personally don't think that it is possible for this to fall under the umbrella of "theft", it is a legal term, not a colloquial one, and there simply isn't room for argument.
 

Ryo Chan

Symphogear
No point in killing a perfectly good thread for no reason, so i'm spliting it to here, and if the rest of the team wants to do anything else to it, i'll leave the key in the door
 

Mutsumi

Guild Member
ilmaestro said:
btw Mutsu, I hope you get arrested for... well, anything, really, and try to argue your way out of it via links to an online dictionary.

But, to keep it within your comfort zone, I'll quote the relevant part:

"–adjective
3. given to or characterized by theft"

The crime that you commit when you download anime is Intellectual Property Theft.

It doesn't matter that you personally don't think that it is possible for this to fall under the umbrella of "theft", it is a legal term, not a colloquial one, and there simply isn't room for argument.

Even if they call the crime 'Intellectual Property Theft', it is not actual stealing. Still illegal, but not technically stealing.
 

Chaz

Chuunibyou
Oh dear, Mutsumi's going into politics... Only people who love red tape can talk so enthusiastically about the definitions to the crimes "Illegal Downloading" and "Stealing." :p

I prefer the simple terms of thing: if you take it without owners's permission, it's stealing (physical or creditable). Whether it's electronical, an idea or an object makes no difference, and I hate it when we have to catergorise things so frivolously.
It may be technically right to label them differently, but as I see it, taking something is still taking it.
 

Jaymii

Baka Ranger
Anyone watched this weeks 8 Out of 10 Cats? It was a digital special and this exact question came up, along with Don't Copy That Floppy. The episode is on YouTube and its about half way into the episode. Their audience thought that illegal downloading was not stealing, so I suppose there's a lot of Mut's in the world.
 

ilmaestro

State Alchemist
Mutsumi said:
it is not actual stealing
lol. What is it then, fake stealing? Like I said, you don't define legal terms, the law defines legal terms.

I thought you were being a bit weird the other day when you were arguing about the different Dragon Ball Z boxsets, but this is some next level ****.

Aren't you pretty old compared to the average age of this forum? "Wise up" would be the only advice I can give you.
 
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