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Japan not best pleased by Brexit

ayase

Shinsengumi
Not really sure why I'm posting this here since it seems most here disagree with scrutinizing Brexit anyway and will likely welcome this.
I think it’s more likely the case most people have already said what they have to say about Brexit and made their positions clear - If you look back in the thread (and... the other Brexit thread that preceded this one) you’ll find a fair few people who don’t want Brexit. I’m not entirely sure what you want from this thread any more really Hellcat, people who are interested in Brexit news probably read it on news websites and discussion wouldn’t be very interesting if people were just agreeing with you.
 

HellCat

Vampire Ninja
It'd certainly help if I didn't read some posts in here and get the feeling various people are just shrugging as more and more facts emerge of what a painful clusterfuck we're headed for, railroaded by a tyrannical government and inept 'opposition'.
 

ayase

Shinsengumi
It'd certainly help if I didn't read some posts in here and get the feeling various people are just shrugging as more and more facts emerge of what a painful clusterfuck we're headed for, railroaded by a tyrannical government and inept 'opposition'.
Facts about what will actually happen if and when we leave the EU are as hard to come by now as they were earlier or even during the referendum campaigns, probably because there won’t be any facts until something actually happens. What we have are still theories and these theories appear, to me at least, to be rather partisan in nature and still based on little other than people believing what they want to believe - Brexit will either be a glorious gold plated future for Britain or it will spell our certain destruction. Personally I don’t think it’s likely to be as good or as bad as anyone is making it out to be. The world keeps spinning, businesses want to keep making money, politicians want to keep their jobs. Anybody who thinks they’ll lose out or believes they stand to benefit is dialling up the rhetoric to convince people it’s a straight choice between doom or glory to try and win people over, and while I understand why they’re doing it, I’m not buying into the claims.

Either extreme would probably be preferable to me, because I think out of chaos we have the opportunity to break the status quo, but with so many wealthy and powerful people invested in maintaining it I don’t see it happening. If my attitude to Brexit comes across as “meh” I think it’s because the effects of Brexit will likely be “meh”.
 
Facts about what will actually happen if and when we leave the EU are as hard to come by now as they were earlier or even during the referendum campaigns, probably because there won’t be any facts until something actually happens. What we have are still theories and these theories appear, to me at least, to be rather partisan in nature and still based on little other than people believing what they want to believe - Brexit will either be a glorious gold plated future for Britain or it will spell our certain destruction. Personally I don’t think it’s likely to be as good or as bad as anyone is making it out to be. The world keeps spinning, businesses want to keep making money, politicians want to keep their jobs. Anybody who thinks they’ll lose out or believes they stand to benefit is dialling up the rhetoric to convince people it’s a straight choice between doom or glory to try and win people over, and while I understand why they’re doing it, I’m not buying into the claims.

Either extreme would probably be preferable to me, because I think out of chaos we have the opportunity to break the status quo, but with so many wealthy and powerful people invested in maintaining it I don’t see it happening. If my attitude to Brexit comes across as “meh” I think it’s because the effects of Brexit will likely be “meh”.
well I vote for gold plated, but it's ridiculous to think that it would be. we're separating from something we've been a part of for what was it? 40/50 years? we'd defiantly have to do something to keep the economy going, we've never been self sufficient and to try to do that now could possibly destroy the pound, I do wish we had someone who won't copy the EU's homework on policies though, the EU has it's own problems and makes it's member countries responsible for them, if you're going to copy a system you're going to copy it's mistakes
 

HellCat

Vampire Ninja
Facts about what will actually happen if and when we leave the EU are as hard to come by now as they were earlier or even during the referendum campaigns, probably because there won’t be any facts until something actually happens. What we have are still theories and these theories appear, to me at least, to be rather partisan in nature and still based on little other than people believing what they want to believe - Brexit will either be a glorious gold plated future for Britain or it will spell our certain destruction. Personally I don’t think it’s likely to be as good or as bad as anyone is making it out to be. The world keeps spinning, businesses want to keep making money, politicians want to keep their jobs. Anybody who thinks they’ll lose out or believes they stand to benefit is dialling up the rhetoric to convince people it’s a straight choice between doom or glory to try and win people over, and while I understand why they’re doing it, I’m not buying into the claims.

Either extreme would probably be preferable to me, because I think out of chaos we have the opportunity to break the status quo, but with so many wealthy and powerful people invested in maintaining it I don’t see it happening. If my attitude to Brexit comes across as “meh” I think it’s because the effects of Brexit will likely be “meh”.
So you're choosing a comfortable apathy for yourself, ignoring the facts and plugging your fingers in your ears as you discredit both sides of the issue as simply pushing self serving agendas.

I'm going to be outside parliament next week, protesting this alongside others. According to you I must be guarding vast coffers. In actuality I'll be there because I've learned history's lessons and can see where we're headed as a country.
 

ayase

Shinsengumi
So you're choosing a comfortable apathy for yourself, ignoring the facts and plugging your fingers in your ears as you discredit both sides of the issue as simply pushing self serving agendas.

I'm going to be outside parliament next week, protesting this alongside others. According to you I must be guarding vast coffers. In actuality I'll be there because I've learned history's lessons and can see where we're headed as a country.
You keep saying "facts" - I don't know that any of these things people are claiming will happen are facts, and I don't believe they know either, because they haven't happened yet. I view these prophecies of doom in the same way as say, Elon Musk saying AIs will destroy society. He doesn't know that, he just believes it. Just as you or I don't know Brexit will cause any massive calamities, we just believe differently. Like yourself, my beliefs are based on history - Primarily the history of neo-liberal globalist capitalism clandestinely perpetuating itself despite any opposition from the likes of such annoyances to them as "the people" or "democracy". Those things have never got in the way of the multinational corporations and banks, or the politicians they have in their pockets. My gut feeling (and I live to be proved wrong) is that we'll be getting whatever Brexit best suits them, and with all the talk of Brexit destroying the economy, I imagine that's no Brexit or at least a continued customs union/single market.

Away from the politicians and the businessmen (and the journalists who serve their agendas) I think there are good people on both sides of this. There are people with legitimate concerns about citizens' rights and our economy, just as there are people with legitimate concerns about levels of immigration vs. wages and the cost of living or EU laws and regulations being forced upon people who don't agree with them. I find it very hard to be partisan in a situation where essentially, I believe that what's needed is dialogue and compromise but we have a government so bitterly divided and a lame duck PM (who commands no respect from anybody) so useless they aren't able to craft one. What happens in this situation, usually, is that the markets take over and decide for us, like George Soros did in 1992. I think they're probably still weighing up what will make them the most profit.

Additionally: I think the important thing for anyone to realise (and it's true that a lot of people are not particularly good at realising this, and the tabloids love trying to teach people otherwise) is that your beliefs and opinions are just that, beliefs and opinions. They're not facts, which is why we debate them. Debating hypothetical possibilities for the future is different to proving somebody wrong who says the earth is flat or gravity doesn't exist. I somebody says "Brexit will be terrible" or "Brexit will be wonderful" you're going on trust, on faith if you choose to believe them. Because like say, the second coming of Jesus, it hasn't happened yet. I think everyone can probably think of a few occassions they believed something would happen and it didn't, or didn't believe something would happen and it did. Some people get proved right, others wrong, but that has little to do with them being able to predict the future. We can take educated guesses, but no more than that.
 
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HellCat

Vampire Ninja
Forgive me but this continues to feel like reading an editorial in the Morning Star.

I don't think you're completely wrong but every time you talk about Brexit your opinion seems to hinge consistently on this notion of an international business driven conspiracy.

You're right to say no one can say exactly what Brexit will look like but we have plenty of evidence and facts now about the bulk of it.

The past 2 years haven't been fun for me. Nor have these threads where I often feel people have come to see me as an extremist kook.

For me there's a very real human cost to all this. I've seen people who chose to make a life here leave in disgust. Increasingly with "I wanted to believe in the native population but even you've scapegoated me."

Personally I'd love nothing more than to go back to how things used to before this stupid mess, whilst sincerely trying to make things better.
 
I don't think you're completely wrong but every time you talk about Brexit your opinion seems to hinge consistently on this notion of an international business driven conspiracy.
I myself, do think there is a cooperate interest particularly in some laws, many of them being some EU laws. after hearing of the leaked plans for a unified EU military I can't help but chuckle that they need that huge military might to protect their cooperate interests
 

ayase

Shinsengumi
Forgive me but this continues to feel like reading an editorial in the Morning Star.

I don't think you're completely wrong but every time you talk about Brexit your opinion seems to hinge consistently on this notion of an international business driven conspiracy.

You're right to say no one can say exactly what Brexit will look like but we have plenty of evidence and facts now about the bulk of it.

The past 2 years haven't been fun for me. Nor have these threads where I often feel people have come to see me as an extremist kook.

For me there's a very real human cost to all this. I've seen people who chose to make a life here leave in disgust. Increasingly with "I wanted to believe in the native population but even you've scapegoated me."

Personally I'd love nothing more than to go back to how things used to before this stupid mess, whilst sincerely trying to make things better.
I call it like I see it, I don't think the business/finance/politics/journalism axis even bothers to hide the fact they're in cahoots any more. I think when you look at all the lobbying, the campaign contributions, the fact politicians often retire to a seat on the board of companies they helped with their legislation, the people they have at their dinner parties etc. it becomes pretty obvious that society's elites are indeed "all in this together" at the expense of everyone else. I think I'm on the mild end when it comes to conspiracy theories, I don't believe they control everything we see or hear to the extent we can't even hope to challenge their power, but I don't really think petitions or pickets or even voting stands much chance against their sheer power over money - By which I mean both their personal raw cash reserves and control of the financial markets themselves.

You're right that I don't trust these people, certainly not to deliver the kind of changes that society needs to be a better, fairer place (which is what I think we both want). I've seen the human cost as well, but it's been going on for much longer than two years, as wages stagnate while living costs rise, jobs get shipped overseas with nothing to replace them and the creation of an ever expanding underclass of the zero-hours contracts (yay! They're off the unemployment figures!), people who have to claim in-work benefits (more public subsidies for the corporations) and the unemployed and unemployable.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you standing up for what you believe in, and I certainly don't think you're an extremist - On the contrary I think you're a moderate, it's just that I tend to disagree with moderates. The way I look at it, Brexit making things either better or worse might at least lead to the kind of radical change that we need to actually improve things, because just being in the EU certainly wasn't doing much.

Also geez, why can't we talk this much about Gundam or something?
 
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HellCat

Vampire Ninja
So in the interests of achieving something productive-

For people here who are below 30 and are pro-Brexit- why do you feel Britain would be better out of it/feel no association with the EU as a positive force?

This isn't me setting you up to have a go at you. I'm genuinely interested to know. Heck knows I consider myself a bit of an oddity for being pro-EU.
 
So in the interests of achieving something productive-

For people here who are below 30 and are pro-Brexit- why do you feel Britain would be better out of it/feel no association with the EU as a positive force?

This isn't me setting you up to have a go at you. I'm genuinely interested to know. Heck knows I consider myself a bit of an oddity for being pro-EU.
from what I understand of it, the EU really doesn't take the interest of it's own member countries into account, dumb rules are made by brussels in a manner where virtually no one can question them, no one can even get the unelected officials in brussels out of office whilst they have as much interest for the common man or the people who the laws and policies effect as our parliament has and countries have to pay hand over fist for a membership in that
 

HellCat

Vampire Ninja
Government to issue guides this September for businesses and homes to prepare for no deal Brexit. That includes food rationing.

I suppose if nothing else the fat sweaty pro Brexit nationalists in the UK anime fandom could stand to lose some weight
 
The problem is the referendum was so close no one who voted out is going to get the deal they want, (not sure if it was new terms with the eu, freedom of movement or making our own laws)
and the people that voted in want to have close ties to the EU.

Not a fan of how these negotiations are going in fact there a joke. Still we are coming out regardless.
 
I get insulted because I believe in Democracy so even though im a ardent remainer I despise the Lib Dem view on second referendum and it is also yes because it would bring back the worst of the UK for a few months
 

HellCat

Vampire Ninja
And that there is why I hate debating brexit...the rude unnecessary insults just because someone has a different opinion. (This is directed at both sides)

Surely we can have a reasoned debate without the childish insults and name calling.
After 2 years of "Project fear! Brexit will be marvelous!", what reaction am I expected to have when we're told the government is preparing for rationing it'll be that bad?

And I'm sorry but in the anime community thoseloudly backing Brexit are the same people who whinge when a disc gets delayed or we don't get a license.
 
During the referendum I would of made it clear that if we were to lose and come out there should be another referendum on what sort of relationship/deal we should have. That way the government could just get on with it. Instead we have a government that has no stance on anything. Its an embarrassment.
 
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