Greg Ayres is my new hero!

[HdE]

Took me a while to get back to this thread because of annoying life stuff. The conversation here is also something I don't want to duck into and comment half-assedly on. As you *may* have noticed, piracy is a big flashing red button of mine.

Ayase - thanks for the explanation of the Crunchyroll situation. I knew there was something like that behind it, but couldn't or the life of me remember the details.

I actually found that there were a couple of extra videos taken from that Greg Ayres panel that I'd managed to miss. The 'you either have ethics or you don't' one particularly stood out. There was some sobering stuff in there, especially with regard to American money being paid into the Japanese industry. Worth bearing in mind that 7 / 8 year gap between the videos being posted and the current landscape of the industry, but it's still quite an eye opener,

The whole point of my directing folks to those videos, really, is that I don't think I've ever heard anybody within the industry speak so directly and comprehensively on the subject of piracy. I like to see people speaking their mind on those kinds of subjects as directly as he does.

There was a point in one of the final excerpts from that panel where he basically echoed one of my own long standing sentiments about piracy. If you rip off officially licensed material, you lose the right to complain about official material. Greg talks about that in far better humour than I ever could.

I'd go as far as to say you lose freedom of speech as a consumer of anime, as well. I mean, nobody bitches about prices on this forum more than I do. But that's my prerogative as somebody who ALWAYS, ALWAYS pays for his anime. If I considered ripping the stuff off the net as an alternative, and actuallly did that, I'd have zero rights to say anything on that particular subject.

My feeling is, it's clear from that panel discussion that any argument advocates of piracy present to defend it can be overturned. I don't think anybody can rightly argue against the reasoning Greg puts forward. So it really comes down to anime fans deciding what kind of fans they want to be - responsible types who support and pay into the industry and the product they profess to love, or entitled, impatient types who just want the stuff they're after by any means necessary.

 

[black1blade]

Or not be anime fans at all because they can't afford it. At best they can watch a smattering of shows on crunchyroll and netflix.

 

[Rui]

Well, in the past people who couldn't afford it got nothing, so fans nowadays have it made in comparison. In ye olde days you had to pay for the tapes and postage for 2-3 episode fansubs too so it was never much of a cost-cutting measure. Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted that access has improved over time (progress!) but I also feel the sense of ingrained entitlement has grown alongside it, which is not so good. Anime itself isn't valued as much as it once was.

Technically there is always another option, it's just that the investment of time and effort in learning enough Japanese outweighs the benefits for many ^^;

Assuming the caveat of consumption in one's own language. Although what if it's a show where the Japanese release is out of print?

That's a very important caveat, though. And from my experience you can get pretty much any Japanese release that's out of print at any time, it's just you might have to pay more in some cases or forsake the odd first press bonus item. I have no moral problem with buying second hand and the only things I've found hard to find later are obscure doujinshi with no shop release and the occasional ancient audio CD, though in the latter case it is more that I get priced out when copies turn up.

R

 

[HdE]

Or not be anime fans at all because they can't afford it. At best they can watch a smattering of shows on crunchyroll and netflix.

As much as I'm not personally a fan of streaming, at least that solution would be legal. Not being able to afford something never makes it okay to just steal it. Suggesting or insisting that it is only devalues somebody's input in the discussion.

For what it's worth, you made a post previously in this thread that I'd held back from commenting on for fear of saying something rash. But I figure it's worth quoting something back to you to give you some context as to why I feel strongly about this subject:

If I created something like an anime or something, I wouldn't mind so much if 95% of people pirated it as my art was being appreciated.

Try working in a creative field and experiencing exactly the situation you've described, Black1blade. You'll change your mind about that sentiment VERY quickly. One regular comics client of mine went into forced hiatus last year, which deprived me of $1,300 income per month from work I was receiving from them. I've no idea if piracy was a factor there, but in my industry it's reasonable to assume so. I assure you, I couldn't have cared less at that point about whether anybody appreciated how well I'd lettered those books. I was more worried about how I'd pay rent and whether I'd eat.

I think an ideal solution would be to have all media available for free then people would be encouraged to donate money to creators and what not.

Here's a story from personal experience that shows what's wrong with that idea:

A while back, I was hired to work on a comic slated for digital distribution alongside a print run. At the time, the perception was that the book would have to be provided fairly cheaply to compete with other digital comics. A complete team was hired for the book - a pencil artist, an inker, a colourist and a letterer (me). Everybody bar the writer, who financed the book, was paid an industry level wage. I'm not privy to the exact cost that amounts to, but it would have been considerable.

It was decided that the digital copy of the comic would be made available for one month on a 'pay what you want' basis. The result was that within two weeks, in spite of critical acclaim, the book had notched up just over a hundred downloads. And of that number, roughly 60% of the people who downloaded it paid NOTHING for it.

In part, this isn't that surprising. Digital copies usually don't sell in huge numbers unless they're put out by the bigger publishers. But even so, had I been consulted and asked if the 'pay what you want' pricing was a good idea, I'd have said 'HELL NO' and advised my client to value his product more.

It turned out later that print copies weren't selling all that well either, and the book wasn't likely to recoup its production costs. This is actually a fairly common story in comics. I was hired to work on the second issue of that book, but it very nearly didn't happen at all, as the money coming in from the first just didn't justify it. At this stage, nobody knows if the series will finish. And in that eventuality, everybody loses. People who enjoyed the book so far, whether they paid for it or not, won't see a continuation of it. Everybody who worked on it will be looking for fresh work in a field that's already notoriously competitive. Now, I concede, that's a case of bad business sense hurting the project rather than piracy. But the underlying problem is the same. People took the product without paying for it.

You can argue that it's okay or justifiable to pirate anime - or movies, or comics, or anything - until the cows come home. But you'll still be in the wrong. Whatever case you make will be faulty. Because so long as the people who are in the business of creating this stuff so that YOU can enjoy it aren't getting a penny from you for their work, then the act is still morally and ethically wrong. I personally LONG for the day when somebody comes up to me at a convention and brazenly tells me that they've illegally got hold of comics I worked on. I'll go to town on them. And there isn't a single person in my line of work who'd judge me harshly for doing it.

Just taking a product somebody worked to create without paying for it ABSOLUTELY hurts the industry and the people who produced it. It ABSOLUTELY increases the risk of new product not being produced in future. I've always known this. And I feel confident that whiny-ass 'fans' who consider it their god-given right to access to all the anime they want at the click of a mouse, or who come up with every lamely reasoned excuse to justify it, would be the first to wail and gnash their teeth if the anime industry failed overnight. Those who pirate anime in volume need to get a clue and see the bigger picture of how it affects people besides themselves. They're spoiling things for the people who create anime, for other fans, and for themselves, long term.

And, to be blunt, how stupid and selfish does somebody have to be to enjoy something enough that they seek it out in great quantities, only to do so in a fashion that threatens its very existence?

I may appear to be sermonizing here. But if this conversation is making anybody feel uncomfortable... maybe it warrants considering that it should?

Piracy is a many-faceted equation with a dead simple bottom line: Nobody is entitled to be entertained for free.

 

[black1blade]

A fair point I suppose. Personally what I value more is that the industry continues and anime is still made into the future, I don't particularity care if something is legal or not. I always liked anime and I had seen quite a few shows but I never got into it big time. That was until I saw Kara no kyoukai and it revitalised my interest big time. I love that series of movies I love it so much. I was overjoyed when MVM had licensed it, overjoyed. I immediately started saving up and I pre-ordered it August 30th, thinking it may sell out as it was a limit quantity. I frequented this website, the MVM facebook page ect for details about it's release date that kept being pushed back and back. Obviously going to all these websites exposed me to the UK anime industry and made the idea of buying shows sound attractive. I have reasonably poor parents so I rarely get any money outside of birthday and Christmas (which I understand is a lot more than a vast amount on the humans on earth so for that I am grateful). While my peers where spending 100s on the next gaming PC part, I saved my funds and luckily I was gifted £100 or so from a relative. I first had to get the equipment so that I could watch blu rays so this money came just at the right time for me to be able to afford a PC monitor, blu ray player and speakers. Thinking about it, what I really should have done is saved for another year so I could buy a new PC (my current one is 10 years old) but I preceded to spend every single penny after that point on anime. To date, I have spent £200 on anime DVDs/blu rays. That may not seem like much but it's the most I can afford. The only other thing I have spent money on is about £30 on D&D books and I am going to buy xenoblade x when it comes out later this year (my brother owns the wii u which he saved up for for about a year). I look at my small pile of anime with pride. I have contributed about the same amount as if I had had a crunchyroll sub for 5 years. This year, I'm going to buy another £150 odd on anime at Christmas and it's all thanks to piracy (well I am probably going to buy a few films I haven't seen yet). I'm not telling you to get off your high horse, your probably right, but I still have a pony to stand on XD.

 

[black1blade]

Although after this year, I'm going to have to starting saving for the HF movies. I hope there is an announcement at the end of UBW how many movies there are going to be so I can plan accordingly. They shouldn't cost more than £100 through UP1, hopefully less.

 

[st_owly (witch)]

Well, in the past people who couldn't afford it got nothing, so fans nowadays have it made in comparison. In ye olde days you had to pay for the tapes and postage for 2-3 episode fansubs too so it was never much of a cost-cutting measure. Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted that access has improved over time (progress!) but I also feel the sense of ingrained entitlement has grown alongside it, which is not so good. Anime itself isn't valued as much as it once was.

Technically there is always another option, it's just that the investment of time and effort in learning enough Japanese outweighs the benefits for many ^^;

Assuming the caveat of consumption in one's own language. Although what if it's a show where the Japanese release is out of print?

That's a very important caveat, though. And from my experience you can get pretty much any Japanese release that's out of print at any time, it's just you might have to pay more in some cases or forsake the odd first press bonus item. I have no moral problem with buying second hand and the only things I've found hard to find later are obscure doujinshi with no shop release and the occasional ancient audio CD, though in the latter case it is more that I get priced out when copies turn up.

R

Oh it absolutely is. I never meant to imply otherwise. I don't know much about the Japanese second hand market so I was just throwing that out there as a what if? I have no problem with second hand stuff either.

 

[ilmaestro]

Well, in the past people who couldn't afford it got nothing, so fans nowadays have it made in comparison. In ye olde days you had to pay for the tapes and postage for 2-3 episode fansubs too so it was never much of a cost-cutting measure. Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted that access has improved over time (progress!) but I also feel the sense of ingrained entitlement has grown alongside it, which is not so good. Anime itself isn't valued as much as it once was.

Unfortunately I think this is just symptomatic of modern youth society. You see this kind of attitude not just across other forms of popular media fandom, but even in trends on social media relating to real world issues.