Greg Ayres is my new hero!

HdE

Comic Book Guy
Does that qualify as a controversial statement around here? ;)

Seriously - I've been doing a bit of research into issues pertaining to piracy, fansubs and bootlegging lately, and discovered some really fantastic material on YouTube.

Anyhoo, as it turns out, the much-maligned Greg Ayres is quite the anti piracy campaigner. And while there's an awful lot of preachy stuff on YouTube on the subject, I found his comments in one series of videos to be really enlightening and thought provoking.

I won't post a link here, but I'd encourage folks interested in the piracy discussion to head over to YouTube and do a search for 'Sogen con 2007 - fansubs panel'. There's a LOT to get through, spreadover multiple videos, so if you do check it out, make sure you have a sandwich and a cup of coffee to hand. Greg covers more than just fansubs (manga scanlations, bootlegging, etc.) with a little help from a handful of familiar faces - or should that be voices? Crispin Freeman and Tiffany Grant can be found in the audience

What's impressed me about these videos is Greg's absolutely watertight logic, excellent reasoning and affable personality. Everything he says either reaffims my own personal opinions on these matters or has educated me on points I was a little fuzzy over.

It's actually - in spite of the subject material - pretty entertaining stuff. Although do be aware that, seeing as the footage as shot in 2007, the industry landscape has changed since then.

I've found a few other videos there where Greg relates some really interesting anecdotes on the same topic.

Well worth a search.
 
I've never quite understood why Greg is so maligned amongst certain sectors of fandom (or why any English VA would be for that matter)

On the subject of piracy - I kind of feel at this point that unless your life conditions change (eg. you get a job, or no longer have vast amount of times to pirate) very little anyone says is going to actively change people's thoughts and actions if they subscribe to either side of the argument.
 
Lutga said:
On the subject of piracy - I kind of feel at this point that unless your life conditions change (eg. you get a job, or no longer have vast amount of times to pirate) very little anyone says is going to actively change people's thoughts and actions if they subscribe to either side of the argument.

I kind of feel the same way there, although I do feel it's a necessary discussion that needs to happen as llong as piracy is a problem (i.e. forever, unfortunately).

What's interesting here is that, even though the arguments in the videos are certainly old news, they're eloquent and persuasive. I've never really known how to argue back on the point of fansubs, for example... but that's changed.
 
I didn't mind Greg Ayres, to me I always remember him for his role of Sunohara in the Clannad dub*. Heheheh.

But I don't think I ever tried out any of the dubs he's worked on as ADR Director.

I'll have a look at the YouTube video later today, always like a good discussion about piracy because it's amazing how there are still people out there who have no idea how bad it affects the industry despite being 'the way that helped Anime hit the west' back in the 90s.

Note:
*For anyone curious and determined to murder me over dubs, I watched the series subbed first. I've only seen half of Season 1 dubbed.
 
NormanicGrav said:
I didn't mind Greg Ayres, to me I always remember him for his role of Sunohara in the Clannad dub. Heheheh.

*snap*

Same - I think it's because his voice is so distinctive, and he often seems to play roles in a similar vein to Sunohara too.
 
Lutga said:
I've never quite understood why Greg is so maligned amongst certain sectors of fandom (or why any English VA would be for that matter)
I will "Nope" away from a dub as quickly as I can if I find out that Greg Ayres is in the cast. I haven't met the guy and he could be the most wonderful person on the planet, but the voice he uses for a lot of his roles sounds worse than a nail against a blackboard to my ears to me.
 
black1blade said:
Piracy will be inexcusable when the top 500 on MAL are all on crunchy roll.

That will probably never happen. You'll be lucky to find a legal anime streaming site with 500 titles, never mind the top 500 titles. That's a pretty insane ask.
 
Exactly. Eliminating piracy means that there will be fewer new fans. I would rather have people watch older shows than be limited to stuff on streaming sites.
 
This is just my personal opinion, but although I can understand it, unavailability is not a reason to pirate. Heck, I wish I could watch all of the original Gundam, but there are no legal means to watch it in the UK right now, and I've got plenty of other stuff to watch in the mean-time.
 
@black1blade I agree, I'd love a streaming site such as Crunchyroll that was focused more on slightly older titles. I mean CR has some stuff like Gintama and Naruto, but it's fairly limited. I imagine it would be a rights nightmare getting that stuff though. I mean, I imagine that sales for Anime probably aren't high already, and streaming would likely cut into their profits.

@Lutga I'd probably disagree with that. I mean, if something isn't available, Piracy isn't taking away profit from the industry, which is the whole point of why Piracy is bad, no? You can't exactly steal something that isn't for sale.
 
Watching it now and the thing I'm most shocked by so far is that there's apparently no accurate translation of Lain? Even the official version is purposefully wrong so as not to upset Americans? What?
 
IncendiaryLemon said:
@Lutga I'd probably disagree with that. I mean, if something isn't available, Piracy isn't taking away profit from the industry, which is the whole point of why Piracy is bad, no? You can't exactly steal something that isn't for sale.

True - but it helps ingrain the behaviour though, and gets you moving in the same circles. No money goes back to the creators, and it instead funds people who are making money off the whole process when they shouldn't be.

It's not an ideal situation, for sure - and I certainly don't blame people who do it because they can't get it elsewhere, it just rankles with my personal morals. Having been on the flip side of the situation (working in the media industry) - I just know I can't go back.
 
He might get to this, but I think quite a few people (myself included) are more than happy to buy legal copies of things they've downloaded if they ever became available. I already have done more than once. I don't really buy the slippery slope argument - It's just an issue of personal morality really, which is up to the individual what they feel happy with.
 
ayase said:
He might get to this, but I think quite a few people (myself included) are more than happy to buy legal copies of things they've downloaded if they ever became available. I already have done more than once. I don't really buy the slippery slope argument - It's just an issue of personal morality really, which is up to the individual what they feel happy with.

That's definitely an option. It's what I did with Gurren Lagann, for example. The only version available was the Out of Print Anime Legends set, which I heard wasn't very good anyway, so I watched it through other means. However, when Anime Limited announced they were bringing it out on Blu Ray, I put in my pre order and bought it right away. Evangelion I pirated as it was out of print and fairly hard to come by, but I watched it, loved it and have since bought the whole set twice (first time I collected the volumes, then I bought the Platinum Collection) and I would be more than happy to put down a third time for a Blu Ray release, if that ever comes out of Japan.
 
I love that people are actually checking this out and discussing it.

A LOT of the stuff people have mentioned in this thread is discussed in Greg's panel. Thoroughly and eloquently. I especially like the article he quotes from which makes the distinction between intorducing new fans and introducing new 'leeches' into the system.

I'm pally with a comic store owner who has mentioned to me that, several times, he's had teenage kids come in with their parents to browse manga, only to hear their parents tell them it's 'a waste of money' to buy manga because they 'can download that one when we get home.'

He's mentioned to me that he's of a mind to start banning customers who do that. And being personally friendly with a handful of comic creators, I wish he would. When Greg says in his panel that 'artists make nothing' he's really not far off the mark. Having people effectively say they're okay with stealing the source of income from these guys is always shocking to me. I shouldn't be surprised, but it's always shocking.
 
Lutga said:
IncendiaryLemon said:
@Lutga I'd probably disagree with that. I mean, if something isn't available, Piracy isn't taking away profit from the industry, which is the whole point of why Piracy is bad, no? You can't exactly steal something that isn't for sale.

True - but it helps ingrain the behaviour though, and gets you moving in the same circles. No money goes back to the creators, and it instead funds people who are making money off the whole process when they shouldn't be.

It's not an ideal situation, for sure - and I certainly don't blame people who do it because they can't get it elsewhere, it just rankles with my personal morals. Having been on the flip side of the situation (working in the media industry) - I just know I can't go back.

This is one of those annoying tangents on the whole debate, for me, that muddies the discussion a lot.

I mean, I GET what it's like to want that one show, or OVA, or whatever, but for whatever reason, it's not available in your region. For me, it's Angel's Egg, Or any of the Gundam side features (Dear GOD I wish we had Seed Stargazer in the West!) But I still don't think piracy is the answer.

In Greg's video, he makes the point that there's literally tons of oficially licensed anime out there to investigate. I do think that sentiment gets borderline preachy, and doesn't really satisfy some glaring logic problems. For example, what if a large portion of that officially licensed anime just doesn't appeal to you?

But I think the over-riding logic you can apply is this: If you're actually spending money - if you're buying bootlegs - then you're still not paying money into channels that will help the industry.

I personally think there's a lot to be said for registering your interest in shows that aren't currently available. Platforms like AUKN are great, where fan have an excellent opportunity to ask for things they want to see, and where distributors have a presence. Asking for what you want, where anime is concerned, may not get it for you quickly, but it demonstrably works.

People asked for Patlabor OVAs, and MVM provided them. People asked for Wings of Honneamise, and Anime Limited provided it. Fans asked for Index and Railgun, and they're getting them.
 
Legally streaming something contributes very little money wise anyway. I would rather have that extra £40 a year to buy one of my fav shows than have 1/3rd of the seasonal anime I watch on a streaming platform. If I was going to pay for crunchy roll, I would probably download all the stuff I didn't like that much then only watch a couple of shows so that my money went to the things I really like that are on there. I know that seems kinda selfish to judge which anime I feel is worth it as I imagine a lot of work went into even the worst anime. On a broader level, our society is largely built of exploitation that it is unavoidable in some way weather it be the clothes you wear, food you eat ect.
If I created something like an anime or something, I wouldn't mind so much if 95% of people pirated it as my art was being appreciated. Obviously I would hope to be making some money, enough to live on from the people who think it deserves funding but I suppose the problem is when something doesn't have a large enough fan base to sustain that. I think an ideal solution would be to have all media available for free then people would be encouraged to donate money to creators and what not. That obviously wouldn't really work with capitalism as it cuts out a lot of the business part. Our society isn't really in too great a shape either and it shows that most people are happy to take things for free, myself included. I think becoming a dedicated fan is the key though, my little brother spent £8 on the ****** mii costumes because (thanks to me) he is a nintendo fan boy. I bet I have spent more money on anime than all my peers at school combined anyway so I am better than 90% of the people who watch anime.
 
My stance on such things is that I will never pay for an unofficial product. I've never bought a bootleg (I learnt from a friend's mistakes), and I torrent stuff I don't watch legally rather than using illegal streaming sites and giving the owners of them ad revenue. If I'm going to spend money, I will spend it on supporting the creators. I feel that if I like something enough to want to own a copy, then I feel I owe the creators something.

An illegal download/stream does not equal a lost sale 100% of the time. That argument was beaten to death in the Napster debate. I bet that most people who download anime just wouldn't watch it if they couldn't get it for free. Sure, some people who would otherwise have bought it won't if they can get it free, but that's definitely not the case all the time.
 
HdE said:
Lutga said:
IncendiaryLemon said:
@Lutga I'd probably disagree with that. I mean, if something isn't available, Piracy isn't taking away profit from the industry, which is the whole point of why Piracy is bad, no? You can't exactly steal something that isn't for sale.

True - but it helps ingrain the behaviour though, and gets you moving in the same circles. No money goes back to the creators, and it instead funds people who are making money off the whole process when they shouldn't be.

It's not an ideal situation, for sure - and I certainly don't blame people who do it because they can't get it elsewhere, it just rankles with my personal morals. Having been on the flip side of the situation (working in the media industry) - I just know I can't go back.

This is one of those annoying tangents on the whole debate, for me, that muddies the discussion a lot.

I mean, I GET what it's like to want that one show, or OVA, or whatever, but for whatever reason, it's not available in your region. For me, it's Angel's Egg, Or any of the Gundam side features (Dear GOD I wish we had Seed Stargazer in the West!) But I still don't think piracy is the answer.

In Greg's video, he makes the point that there's literally tons of oficially licensed anime out there to investigate. I do think that sentiment gets borderline preachy, and doesn't really satisfy some glaring logic problems. For example, what if a large portion of that officially licensed anime just doesn't appeal to you?

But I think the over-riding logic you can apply is this: If you're actually spending money - if you're buying bootlegs - then you're still not paying money into channels that will help the industry.

I personally think there's a lot to be said for registering your interest in shows that aren't currently available. Platforms like AUKN are great, where fan have an excellent opportunity to ask for things they want to see, and where distributors have a presence. Asking for what you want, where anime is concerned, may not get it for you quickly, but it demonstrably works.

People asked for Patlabor OVAs, and MVM provided them. People asked for Wings of Honneamise, and Anime Limited provided it. Fans asked for Index and Railgun, and they're getting them.

I don't think people are giving people money for bootlegs. It's all about torrenting or illegal streaming. If people are savvy enough (like me for example) when browsing these sites, you use an adblocker. That means no one is getting any money, so people can buy all the legal anime they desire and still have whatever unreleased show they want. It isn't taking money away from the industry at all. Even if you don't use an adblocker, it's not like you're actively giving your money to the pirates, you're only helping sustain their site, which is still a negative for the industry, but you're not personally giving the site money.
 
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