General Politics Thread

and if you listen to any interviews of that Jordan Peterson guy who has shot to fame (and fortune) recently
Have you seen anything he's done yourself? I'm not saying follow him, hell, I don't really follow anyone you could call a political activist but he mainly leaves a bunch of his stuff on YouTube and his followers always have a bunch of his clips, I would say he does have some points now and again, and well, there's a clip where channel 4 interviews him and basically has his interviewer attack him on everything he says, with every thing he.... didn't say, but he is too smart to fall for someone putting words in his mouth and well, no one at channel 4 is Einstein, so it wasn't hard for him not to fall for it.
As for my left wing uni. Well it's great, there are so many politically active young sprigs who do genuinely care for people other than themselves,
Uh oh! I just find it hard to believe young people care about something, then again I haven't been to uni and I'm an embittered man on minimum wage, I can't really afford to care about anyone as things are. The thing is, what I really hate about the current political climate is idealism, it's easy for groups to fall for that, and well, you should already know it's the ideologues that are the most destructive, they'll all justify their awful actions but they don't really do anything to change things for the better
 

Watanabe Ken

Magical Girl
I think university students have always been on the left side of politics, but the problem I see is that the left wing politics has gone so far-left that now every thing is about the group identity and victimization of these groups by western society. Take black lives matter for example, they like to portray a narrative that black Americans are being gunned down by racist white cops, but in actual fact there actually being killed by other black Americans and cops shoot more white Americans than there black counterparts, but black lives matter don't want to tackle gang violence they'd rather just blame the police and stir up
And the democrats and there puppets in the media just want to stir up tensions so they get the "angry black vote" and don't give a **** about people between elections.

Another element from the whole identity politics movement which turns people off is the whole
Which is being used as a cheap way to shut down people who might disagree with some of the things hard left activist groups like BLM are saying.
 
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Vashdaman

Za Warudo
@Captaaainuniverse

I did watch that Channel 4 Jordan B Peterson interview actually, it's the only long interview with him I've bothered to watch. He may be a slippery debater, but I thought he came across as a nasty piece of work. It's as I said in the previous post, nearly everything he says is a denial of or excuse for the systemic inequality found in society and a defence of the status quo. I do believe right now we are seeing a sea change in social attitudes, and I do think on the whole it is for the better, people are becoming more aware of and sensitive to different people's identities and lives. Meanness and bigotry towards certain types of people on the periphery isn't tolerated in the way it was even just a decade ago. Sure, even some things I like (such as The League of Gentlemen) can come under fire right now, but at the end of day we are now in a time where people expect better of comedy than to lazily make fun of transgender people, and that's not a bad thing. Sometimes some things can be misunderstood, and sometimes people probably do attack or defend the wrong things, but on the whole I think society is really headed in more compassionate, considerate direction. The recent very visible feminist movement has been a really important step forward in my opinion, and I don't understand the people who play down it's significance. And sorry Ken, but I think the BLM movement is absolutely vital, and I think it's fair enough to point out the ridiculousness of white men criticising the movement, their voice or opinion on BLM has minimal significance.

I know economic inequality and oppression is important too, but I can't bring myself to describe identity politics as a scourge, and I think we are starting to see economic oppression being talked about alongside discussions about identity.

I think the likes of Jordan Peterson are genuinely frightened by this change. Or a part of me feels he's just cynically cashing in on other men's fears and doesn't believe half the rubbish he comes out with. But either way, he's nothing but another conservative trying to halt the inevitable tide, and he'll fail.
 
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ayase

State Alchemist
I have to question whether we're really at a stage in our society where we do have the luxury of just forgetting about the specifics. And I'm not sure we are. It seems to me that right now we are seeing something of a backlash to 'identity politics' in some quarters. You hear about people taking offence to the black lives matter movement and tweeting 'all lives matter', and if you listen to any interviews of that Jordan Peterson guy who has shot to fame (and fortune) recently it's apparent he (ostensibly) believes deep rooted societal sexism and racism in the west is nothing but a modern myth created by radical left wing identity obsessed lazy types. And of course there are the people who take umbrage to the term feminism and would rather they called themselves humanists or something. This all sounds rather nice, until you realise all it's doing is enabling the status quo to be perpetuated. A general 'humanist' or 'all lives matter' campaign isn't going to work in addressing these existing racial or sexual or gender power imbalances. And until these are truly, finally, fully uprooted, can we really forget about them? Maybe right now we do just need to accept that everything really does need to be taken into account.

I don't know, it's tricky.
It is. But I think the major problem with is that it's so easily hijacked by anyone who can claim to be part of that "identity" - Black Lives Matter, a group I believe had good intentions to draw much needed attention to black people who really are unfairly persecuted (and in some cases shot dead) by police can find itself hijacked by people defending those who also happen to be black and targeted by the authorities, but actually are/were violent criminals who were targeted by the police for good reasons. It's how people go from trying to root out genuine sexual abuse by powerful men to immediately believing any and all accusations against such people on social media without a shred of proof. Because these people are black, or women, they're part of their "group" and they have to defend them. And that only serves to hand ammunition to their critics. I think there's a reluctance within identity politics to admit that there are some people in every section of society who are awful human beings who do deserve to be criticised. There are some awful men, there are some awful women, there are some awful white people, there are some awful black people, there are some awful straight people, there are some awful gay people. People need to stand with those they know are worth standing with, not just because they belong to these identities.

And the sad thing is I totally believe in these causes - Powerful men should not be able to get away with sexual assault, authorities should not be unfairly victimising black people. But I think the modern world with its social media has an unfortunate tendency to believe any and every allegation without investigating it first or without trying to go through the proper legal channels to get justice for people. Just look at how any dissenting voices, even perfectly reasonable ones, are shut down by the twitter mob. You think some of these actors and actresses might not be being fully honest about things and that in some cases it might have been a case of quid-pro-quo, Terry Gilliam? Well, guess that means you must be a sex abuser too. It's pretty horrible.

I also feel like the ubiquity of US media really isn't helping things here in the UK with our race and gender relations. Black British people have a totally different history to African Americans, their ancestors emigrated here from parts of the Empire, they weren't brought here against their will as slaves. And while we might have had (and still have) casual racism, we never had enforced segregation. I personally don't feel like there are the same kinds of barriers or bad history between races here in the UK today at all*. American feminists also seem ten times louder and more unreasonable than those in the UK and Europe (though is that really any different to any other ideology that makes its way to the US? No offence intended, American AUKNers - It's your sensationalist media I blame for that, not you as individuals). I think listening to all of this VERY SHOUTY stuff coming out of the US makes people here, whatever side of the debate they're on, feel more victimised and oppressed than they actually are and turns their opinions more extreme.

These imbalances in society will only be addressed when people learn to treat each other as equals - That has gotten better as you say, I think we are moving in the right direction. But will it ever truly go away? I don't know. I don't know if it's possible to fully root it out without some kind of Brave New World style system where the state raises and educates all children from birth, because some people are always going to pick up prejudices from their parents or peers and the cycle will continue. It also feel like in some instances, particularly those of gender roles, people can't do right for doing wrong these days. People who don't conform to traditional gender roles are criticised by those who do for being weird, and those who do conform to those traditional roles are criticised by those who don't for buying into the patriarcial society, or whatever. Can we just let people be whoever they want, please?

*And that's the major reason why, as you're probably aware, I think economic inequality is the biggest divider here. From what I observe in my day-to-day life in a down-at-heel Northern city, black people, white people, Indians and Pakistanis all get along pretty damn well, those who are racist are very few and regarded by everyone else as thugs. Maybe that's just because we're Northern and we talk to each other, and people have bonded over the fact that whatever their background they all work shi**y jobs or are on the dole, I don't know.
 

Watanabe Ken

Magical Girl
I did watch that Channel 4 Jordan B Peterson interview actually, it's the only long interview with him I've bothered to watch. He may be a slippery debater, but I thought he came across as a nasty piece of work. It's as I said in the previous post, nearly everything he says is a denial of or excuse for the systemic inequality found in society and a defence of the status quo
I don't think calling people out on there lies is the same as defending the status quo, take the gender wage gap for example some feminist often claim that women are being paid less for the same work, and JP simple states that it's a lot more complicated than that, and there are many factors to consider like
and simply stating that women are paid less then men is very dishonest on there part.

But I think the biggest misunderstanding about JP comes from the whole Bill C16 in which he was against on freedom of speech grounds, but I'll leave some videos below so people can make up there own minds.

and I think it's fair enough to point out the ridiculousness of white men criticising the movement, their voice or opinion on BLM has minimal significance.
why is it ridicules for white men to criticize or have an opinion on something that's happening in the society and world they are a part of, I mean I've never had my Virginia mutilated but I have strong opinions about FGM, even if Sadik Knan says voicing them is hate speech. Imagine if people in the past were not allowed to voice there opinions on gay rights or slavery all because they weren't black slaves or gay, if people in the past weren't allowed the freedom to speak out against things they thought were wrong and were dismissed as ridiculous, then I think the world as we know it today would be a much darker place full of things long forgotten to the past (well at least in the west).



 
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@Captaaainuniverse

I did watch that Channel 4 Jordan B Peterson interview actually, it's the only long interview with him I've bothered to watch. He may be a slippery debater, but I thought he came across as a nasty piece of work. It's as I said in the previous post, nearly everything he says is a denial of or excuse for the systemic inequality found in society and a defence of the status quo. I do believe right now we are seeing a sea change in social attitudes, and I do think on the whole it is for the better, people are becoming more aware of and sensitive to different people's identities and lives. Meanness and bigotry towards certain types of people on the periphery isn't tolerated in the way it was even just a decade ago. Sure, even some things I like (such as The League of Gentlemen) can come under fire right now, but at the end of day we are now in a time where people expect better of comedy than to lazily make fun of transgender people, and that's not a bad thing. Sometimes some things can be misunderstood, and sometimes people probably do attack or defend the wrong things, but on the whole I think society is really headed in more compassionate, considerate direction. The recent very visible feminist movement has been a really important step forward in my opinion, and I don't understand the people who play down it's significance. And sorry Ken, but I think the BLM movement is absolutely vital, and I think it's fair enough to point out the ridiculousness of white men criticising the movement, their voice or opinion on BLM has minimal significance.

I know economic inequality and oppression is important too, but I can't bring myself to describe identity politics as a scourge, and I think we are starting to see economic oppression being talked about alongside discussions about identity.

I think the likes of Jordan Peterson are genuinely frightened by this change. Or a part of me feels he's just cynically cashing in on other men's fears and doesn't believe half the rubbish he comes out with. But either way, he's nothing but another conservative trying to halt the inevitable tide, and he'll fail.
I've just gone through a long shift and have learnt it's the Same tommorrow (It's meant to be my day off and there will be nothing to do) so sorry if my response seems a little aggressive, but....
I disagree with pretty much all of this. Peterson has been in debates like that for years, he's experienced in what he does, I would hardly call that slippery. I have seen a few clips where he's almost crying, as he thinks of how young boys are being taught to hate themselves, hate how they'd normally be, thanks to what is fast becoming the status quo. All this feminist and BLM stuff I can no longer take seriously, as the loudest voices of them are ridiculous, quite frankly insane and things like the gender identity rubbish and wether someone else, not who the statement is aimed at, finds something offensive. It's all a damn joke.
It's a system that treats white men (I'm one myself) like the big bad wolf. It was bearable before feminism became a big mainstream movement. Ideologies are *something I personally dislike* and only serve to destroy others not part of it
 
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ayase

State Alchemist
Ideologies are *something I personally dislike* and only serve to destroy others not part of it
But what's the alternative, to have no convictions and believe in nothing? I doubt that's true of yourself, or you wouldn't be bothering to debate political issues in this thread.

I have no opinions of this bloke you're all talking about as he's not someone I've ever felt inclined to listen to.
 
But what's the alternative, to have no convictions and believe in nothing? I doubt that's true of yourself, or you wouldn't be bothering to debate political issues in this thread.

I have no opinions of this bloke you're all talking about as he's not someone I've ever felt inclined to listen to.
The crusades were ment to be good for Britain- we would have had the holy land, it wasn't so good for the natives, who happened to be of a different religion to the templars. I trust my own convictions and well I'm a nihilist, quite often I think that nothong matters. I'm just saying if you feel you must believe on something, you don't have to follow lemmings off a cliff
 

Vashdaman

Za Warudo
@ayase I do agree with a lot of what you wrote there. There are some people being deemed guilty until proven innocent in they eyes of twitter right now, and I'm sure any of these movements can and do get misused occasionally by the wrong people. But that's always been the case with any movement, and social media does seem to exacerbate this, but unfortunately right now I think this stuff just has to be viewed as collateral damage. Some innocent people are perhaps being wrongfully accused, and perhaps some guilty people are being proclaimed innocent, and this is very, very lamentable and I think the twitter mob or whoever else should exercise more caution and restraint. But I still think more good than bad has come out of these movements, and I don't think they deserve to be dismissed or tarred with the hysterical brush. That seems to be line the more conservative media is taking right now in an attempt to put a lid on them "so and so was wrongly accused so these movements are dangerous", but for so long we've really had a culture of victim blaming, and I think that's hopefully starting to change and we should be very careful about sliding back into that way of treating women or whoever else has suffered.

As for the race relations here, I broadly agree you. It is much, much better than in the US from what I can tell. But racism can also be so subtle and insidious rather than blatant. And even if on an everyday level people get on very well together (and I do believe they largely do here) I think there's still a lot of prejudice to overcome in certain quarters where there still aren't many minority people that hold prominence
 

Watanabe Ken

Magical Girl
I'm just going to leave this video here because I think Larry Elder sums up the BLM movement far better than I ever could.
 
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Watanabe Ken

Magical Girl
Brilliant bit of comedy that dives into the whole gender pay gap debate that polarises today's society and politics as a whole. I may not agree with every opinion in this video but found the part about the media misusing statistics to sell stories very interesting.
 
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Watanabe Ken

Magical Girl
Students demand 'POC-only space' at NYC university

Students at The New School in New York City are demanding that administrators set aside a space for people of color to “exist without the pressures of white supremacy presence of white people
Demanding racial segregation, you can't even make this **** up. I weep for the future of these young people, who are being told that every bad thing that happens to them is all because of the evil white people, but saying that demanding that you be giving a space that prohibits fellow classmates because of your racist views on there racial identity is just plain narcissism, and should not be tolerated.
 
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Rui

Karamatsu Boy
Administrator
Can we debate political topics in a more balanced, less flamebaity way, or shall I just lock this topic and leave that kind of thing to actual politics websites where everyone can go all-out? Perhaps a requirement that opinions voiced be the poster's actual opinions with any links or YouTubers in a footnote, rather than (abrasive) websites and videos being used as the bulk of entire posts? It hasn't got out of control yet but that's more a testament to the self control of our members than the quality of the thread overall.

Frankly, and I'm saying this without my moderator hat on, I honestly dislike reading this thread and I'm not even a politically-minded person. I don't like reading 'feminist' used as a casual slur by people with whom I wanted to talk about anime, or seeing posts which use unpleasant language in the name of debate - and it's not even productive to throw out offensive language* to make a point, because it stifles adult conversation and nobody bothers replying to it. Not because everyone thinks the person making the point was right, but because nobody wants to try to debate with someone acting that way in the first place.

Personally, I feel that this thread in its current form goes against the chilled-out culture we enjoy on the rest of the website. Even the heated debates about evergreen topics like CE versus SE and sub versus dub avoid slinging so many charged remarks around as though they're casually accepted by an assumed entrenched majority. I would like to ask that the purpose of future posts in this thread be carefully considered.

R

* I'm deleting the comment in question now as it's one that people have made very legitimate complaints about before. Please don't use that expression.
 

ayase

State Alchemist
Perhaps a requirement that opinions voiced be the poster's actual opinions with any links or YouTubers in a footnote, rather than (abrasive) websites and videos being used as the bulk of entire posts?
I'd consider this to be a very good suggestion. I like a healthy debate and sources can be helpful, but if I'm discussing something with someone I'm interested in their opinion and discussing and debating issues with them. I'm not remotely interested in debating against a YouTube video of someone I don't know, have never spoken to and will never speak to. What would be the point?

I find in a lot of corners of the internet now, someone will post a tweet or a YouTube link and essentially the topic will be "right, now everybody argue about this person's opinion" - It feels a bit like an extension of celebrity culture where people only care about someone's opinions if they're (internet) famous, but to me debating in favour of or against the opinions of people who aren't even present just seems like a fruitless exercise. More than that, whether intentional or not, it can come across like spreading propaganda for said personality which can immediately start things off on the wrong foot.

There's also the issue that a discussion forum is supposed to be different from a social media account or a blog. We're here to read each other's opinions and discuss things, so normally (when people start new threads at least) they're in the form of a question or query showing interest in what people have been doing or what they think. Personal opinions by themselves without any real prompt for further discourse are not necessarily discussion worthy, and might be better off being aired on a personal site.

I don't like reading 'feminist' used as a casual slur by people with whom I wanted to talk about anime, or seeing posts which use unpleasant language in the name of debate - and it's not even productive to throw out offensive language* to make a point, because it stifles adult conversation and nobody bothers replying to it. Not because everyone thinks the person making the point was right, but because nobody wants to try to debate with someone acting that way in the first place.
And a definite +1 for this. Civility costs nothing and demonstrates to people that you have respect for others and for opinions other than your own.
 
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Watanabe Ken

Magical Girl
Hungary election: Victory for populism as Viktor Orban returns with a landslide The Hungarian people really don't want to take any migrants into there country, but who really can blame them when countries that have taken in migrants are finding out that it wasn't such a good idea.

On another note don't you think it's odd that the Syrian forces would risk the wrath of America by using chemical weapons on civilians, especially when there on the brink of a big victory. Every time the Syrian forces are winning there president coincidently orders a chemical gas attack on civilians, which results in America or there allies bombing there bases.
 
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Teapot

Warrior of Light
Administrator
I'd like to pitch in (several days late, natch) to wholeheartedly agree with @Rui and every point she made.

It occurs to me that I'd written an entire post in response to a comment early on in the thread, and I never actually posted it – in hindsight, probably in fear of being flamed, rather than disagreed with. If that's happening to me, a politically-minded type who enjoys engaging in the marketplace of ideas, I can't imagine who else is being discouraged from posting, despite potentially wanting to contribute.

So, try to avoid charged remarks, remember to be excellent to everyone, and debate in good faith. There's plenty of places on the web to throw grenades and antagonise people, but we're an anime site and very much not one of them. Take this as fair warning that I will straight up delete anything overtly intolerant – we're all friends here, we can debate and disagree without mud-slinging.

Now, normally at this point I'd propose a topic to start us off on the right foot, but I'm kinda lost for ideas. Anyone want to propose something? :)
 
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been reading the posts on the state of this thread and yea, it's politics so it's going to risk looking like it's leaning one way or another, and I'd hate to sound like a mod since I ain't one but it is a DISCUSSION nothing posted here means there will be meaningful action in politics.
I would say with the youtube thing, remember what point you're making, make it clear, and mark down where in the youtube video someone makes that point, like the timestamps in youtube comments. no one should really care who these people are, in a discussion it's their arguments that matter, not their social class or anything like that. that said it's a pretty open forum and most things can be discussed as long as it's short of an admin breathing down your neck.
the dirty f word thing though? I may be watching the "alternative media" kind of guys on YT but I'm just going to say in the nicest way possible, all I really see about it is that it only ever serves to divide people based on arbitrary things
and I'm just gonna come out with it, I've been permanently banned from posting comments on kotaku UK for a comment on a pretty toxic brexit post. despite a ban from Kuk being a "you're human" badge I'm still going to say that admins are admins, not dung beetles
 
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