General News/Current Affairs Thread
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Vashdaman
Za Warudo
AntAce said:
Popular public opinion of course matters. Israel isn't going stop because the rest of the world thinks killing Palestinians is uncool, but Israel would have pretty much no choice but to stop if the US stopped bankrolling them, and stopped being pretty much their sole supporter in the UN. And the US can't keep up their support of Israel if public opinion in the US gets to a point where it's so vehemently opposed to what the Israeli government is doing. This is basic politics really, and this is the only way Israel will ever stop. And if you look at the only times when Israel has conceded anything, it's when the world public opinion is so strongly against them that they have no choice, such as after the Gaza flotilla raid in 2010. This was the secret to Gandhi's success too.
There is no way not to kill huge amounts of civilians when Israel is doing what they are doing in such a densely populated area. So while they may not deliberately targeting civilians, they know huge amounts will die and carry on anyway. Israel don't have to do this, they have the Iron Dome, they could remain in good standing with the international community and remain relatively safe, but they chose not to. And when you look at how every few years Israel starts blowing up Gaza barbarically, and maintains a quite frankly inhumane blockade of the place, I have no choice but to conclude that if the Israel government can't achieve a peace strictly on their terms without compromise, then they want to commit a genocide. I don't think this is an unfair conclusion.
AntAce
Student Council President
Public opinion didn't stop the war in Iraq or Russia annexing Crimea. Israel may bow to international pressure every once in a while, but this recent incursion by them just goes to show that ultimately, Israel doesn't care what the international community thinks of them. While Gandhi certainly won over public opinion, he didn't lob rockets at his British oppressors, which is where issues arise in your second paragraph.vashdaman said:
In an ideal world, conflicts would occur between consenting parties, well away from civilisation or never take place at all; unfortunately, we don't. Collateral damage - civilian casualties - are always going to be a thing so long as we allow armed conflicts to continue - and we do allow them to continue. The fact Iron Dome is a thing is disgusting - Hamas shouldn't be launching rockets into Israel, no matter how ineffectual. The IDF doesn't blow up Gaza 'barbarically' (Is there any other kind of blowing people up?) for jollies; the IDF retaliates for Hamas' terrorist activities. You don't get to kill/attack people and then complain when they defend themselves - and that goes for all parties involved.
It is a crappy situation that isn't helped by an international community which sits idly by and lets the violence perpetuate. The pressure for Israel/Hamas to stop is never continuous; we only get involved when the situation escalates to extreme levels such as now. Either we can intervene and bang their heads together, regardless of which side is in the wrong this time, or we wash our hands of it and let Israel steamroll Gaza.
Animefreak17
Godhand
You know your history
ayase
State Alchemist
Pistols at dawn between Mohammed Deif and Benjamin Netanyahu? Sounds like the fairest possible way to settle all this, given that they're the ones stirring up hatred and responsible for ordering their troops to rain death on civilians. With any luck they'd both die.AntAce said:
Ath said:
In fact... That gives me an idea. Just airdrop a load of porn of hot Jews over Palestine, and a load of porn of sexy Arabs over Israel and soon they'll stop fighting and start f*cking. Problem solved.
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Vashdaman
Za Warudo
AntAce said:
You seem to have missed my point, I acknowledged that the Israel government doesn't seem to care what the world thinks of it, but without American money and support they would have literally no choice but stop this barbarity. And say what you want, but once American public opinion is strong enough in demanding that their tax money not be sent to a government committing war crimes, then the American gov will in time pull their support, as it would be detrimental for any democratic administration to ignore popular opinion to such a degree, and thus the last barrier to peace would be removed. I admit we have a ways to go, but your crazy if you deny the power of the popular voice, I mean, how do you think pretty much any positive political change has happened? Due to the benevolence of people in power? If it wasn't due to popular opinion finding it unacceptable, we'd still have slavery and women wouldn't be voting.
No, but what does that have to do with anything? I'm not condoning the rocket attacks, just as I wouldn't condone the violence of the many indians who disagreed with Gandhi's stance. As they obviously don't help win public opinion. But looking at the way the Israeli government behave, I'm almost convinced they want to provoke the rocket attacks, as it gives them an excuse not to settle things diplomatically under international law and remove their illegal occupation.
So you think Israel is justified? They have and are barbarically blowing up Palestinians. Look at the historical record, it is absolutely and undeniably barbaric. Look at the first Intifada, where Israel responded with murder to the largely unarmed Palestinian revolt. It is barbarity. The UN called out Israel seriously for war crimes then, and may do so now too http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...imes-says-uns-human-rights-chief-9624205.html, so it's still going on, nothing about Israels ideology has changed for the better. I know you don't agree with the idea of disproportionate retaliation for some reason, but this is what the Israeli ideology has always been, they hit us with a stone, we shoot them with a gun. Yes it's obviously terrible that Hamas are still firing rockets into Israel. But then what do Israel really expect when they are maintaining such a unanimously brutal blockade of Gaza, where 95% of water is now unfit for human consumption? You would obviously and quite reasonably expect them to revolt, no? But what is happening is Israel is enforcing this blockade, maintaining it's illegal (by international law) occupation, ends up having rockets which by all reports do little damage fired at it, and then goes ahead and massacres hundreds of Palestinians who have no Iron Dome to defend themselves with. And according to HRW there's not even always evidence that they are just targeting military faculties, and may be enacting a "collective punishment" on Gazans http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/09/pale ... et-attacks
How long are people going to excuse what Israel are doing, when it is obviously inexcusable?
animefreak17 said:
But it's a shame you don't.
Animefreak17
Godhand
Course I don't
War
Conflicts
Up risings
I know that much
War
Conflicts
Up risings
I know that much
GolGotha
Death Scythe
So, let's say you were friends with Mr Churchill....would you say 'Leave the Nazi's to get on with it sir, don't get involved!' And then simply turn a blind eye? Or would you get the cane out of the cupboard and give Hitler and damn good thrashing?!
Sorry, been watching too much QI again....
Sorry, been watching too much QI again....
Animefreak17
Godhand
GolGotha said:
It's not that......It's just because humans started war the war and someone needed to stop them.
The Nazis believed they was better then anyone else and anyone who wasn't like them then everyone else is evil.......And that's the scary thing about man.
Animefreak17
Godhand
GolGotha said:
BECAUSE they hate each other
The difference is the Nazis wanted world denomination
Where's these two countries just down right hate each other and wants the other dead, innocent or otherwise.
Both sides hate each other so much there willingly would kill innocent people on each side, they don't care as long as your them and visa versa.
Vashdaman
Za Warudo
I think the solution is somewhat clear, as I think probably nearly 99% of Palestinians would accept a peace based on a fulfillment of the division proposed in 1947, most of the world (read: the whole world except America) seem to think this is fair too. Although, I agree getting Israel to agree has proven to be the tricky part.
Animefreak17
Godhand
I'm just sick of the s*** that's going on and I'm sick of humanity destroying everything on our beautiful planet-
Killing wild life
Destroying forests
Wars
Rape
Murder
If just got to the point of saying........
F*** it let them kill one another til there satisfied of killing everyone.
The best solution is to let both sides kill each other til they have had enough and see what they have done to them selfs and then hopefully they will see what true pain is.
Killing wild life
Destroying forests
Wars
Rape
Murder
If just got to the point of saying........
F*** it let them kill one another til there satisfied of killing everyone.
The best solution is to let both sides kill each other til they have had enough and see what they have done to them selfs and then hopefully they will see what true pain is.
jonno394
Za Warudo
animefreak17 said:
I honestly don't understand what you mean by this. Surely families seeing their children killed by an Israeli rocket when the Israelis where "targetting terrorists" know what true pain is already.
There is no "let both sides kill each other". If Israel want to, they can blow the palestinians off the face of this planet and they seem to be heading towards a complete extermination, if not forcing out all the arab population from the Gaza Strip and then the other territories around Israel.
Vashdaman
Za Warudo
animefreak, I think probably the most irking thing about your posts is your saying all these trite things like "let them kill each other till they're satisfied" and "let them see what true pain is" and posting bloody naruto videos, when you completely lack any kind of understanding of the history, motivations, and context of the conflict. It gets grating.
Animefreak17
Godhand
britguy said:
And that's the problem people dont see that fighting is useless and pointless at the end of the day, but instead of enjoying them selfs they kill in the name of revenge, beliefs, ect
Wasn't it the Palestinians who started it by kidnapping 4 isrealy citizens and they are probably dead.
jonno394
Za Warudo
animefreak17 said:
There's no probably about it, they are dead and their bodies were found which is why this thing escalated dramatically. AF you need to look at the otherside, as a Palestinian, you have an opressive force threatening your very existence and it's either fight or die, what do you do? Imagine if Scotland or wales started invading England and killing indiscriminately. Would you sit idly buy and let them kill people and take over the country, perhaps even exterminating English people, or would you take up arms and fight back? That is what Palestinians are doing.
Look at the Kurds in Iraq, Saddam Hussein tried to wipe them out, was them fighting back pointless and useless? Their very existance was threatened so they had a reason to fight back.
People will always find a reason to fight. I hear many say that "Religion is the cause of all evil". If there was no religion people would still find something else to fight over, at the end of the day humanity is tribalistic in nature and our own personal security and safety (and that of those close to us) is the thing we care about the most.
Animefreak17
Godhand
britguy said:
...............................................I can't win can I
So should I hate all the Walsh or just the ones who attacked me.
Are they Muslims......the Palestinians I mean.....I forget.