Garden of Sinners Simulwatch.

Birdie Num Num

Great Teacher
Film 8 - Or what should have been the final scene of the last film. And it didn't have a manner film either, I liked those 1 minute stop motion animations.

Collectively I would give Garden of Sinners 8 out of 10, best film was the fifth one, as the series was building up to it and it paid off. I've found out that there is another film called Mirai Fukuin or recalled out summer. I wonder if that will ever become available in the UK. Anyways it has been fun and I look forward to another simulwatch.
 

Geriatric hedgehog

Vampire Ninja
Sorry everyone, just didn't get a chance to keep up but have been watching in bits and pieces and finally finished it all today.

Chapter 6 - most anime use the beach episode to take a break from the drama and action but this is GoS, so we get a trip to Hogwarts instead! I enjoyed the mystery element. Interesting how the show sometimes reveals the plot straight out early on, potentially in the knowledge that the viewers will suss out the not so subtle hints, as in this chapter. But at others times it keeps it's cards very close to it's chest, as with the murder speculation chapters (provided you don't watch any post-credits scenes that is) but mainly in the great build up to chapter five. Azaka like the majority of anime sisters, does not give in to the taboo that is non-consanguinity, and is very happily following the norm by being head over heels for her oneeeeeechan, with his personality being so captivating that she can't even remember why. Her interactions with Shiki are pretty funny.

Chapter 7 & the epilogue chapter - the non-linear beast once again rears its head by finishing the saga with the completion of the protagonists' origin story, a great touch again for me with all of it being like a mountain climb, with the Paradox paradigm chapter being the pinnacle. Shiki did not in fact kill anyone all those years back but just had impeccable timing for fresh murder scenes. But Rio's reveal had been utterly ruined in the post-credits scenes of both the fourth and sixth movies - such a shame as I'm sure the interest from their contents could have still been significantly piqued without outright revealing the killer's identity. I like the crafting of the origin aspects of the lore, even with the clunky exposition, and felt the use of both Rio's and Shiki's was done very well. With my first watch Rio has just come across as a canabalistic sex pest for Shiki, but this time around I definitely felt he has in fact been portrayed in a very bestial form. Likewise with the base Shiki personality's talk of the Shiki origin being nothingness and therefore the desire for oblivion to return to said nothingness I thought was a nice touch.

I quite enjoyed the epilogue with my first watch and still did on this occasion. Mainly down to the wonderful scene setting with the gorgeous snow visuals (the Christmas episode!!) and lovely score. Even the philosophising, which I found more miss than hit in the other movies, I thought was easier to sit through (even though like puppy boy, my true reaction to Shiki's chat was "I don't follow what you're saying"...). Still chats around attempting to link and rationalise the soul and the mind, the perceptible scientific/biological & the metaphysical/assumed I always find interesting as well as the chicken & egg elements of these.

In the end, I found Garden of Sinners (what a great title by the way; I need to look up again the meaning of the Japanese title, Kara no Kyoukai, which also sounds rather beautiful whatever it may mean) just as intriguing on second watch as with my first. As @Dai had mentioned early on, it very easily could have been a lackluster & exploitative anime but the talent behind it certainly did a good job to make it special with the non-linearity probably only being second to Monogatari as @WMD mentioned.



Many aspects of it reminded me of Satoshi Kon.
That is a very good comparison, I didn't think of it that way at all but I can certainly see some similarities now that you've mentioned it.
I will however not forget some of those scenes easily, especially the casual domestic abuse followed by frying pan to the head.
It's always so unsettling to see the victim just taking that kind of abuse without any resistance, which is why that frying pan to the head was hilariously cathartic. The stabby stabby thereafter not so much...
Of the 3 magi, Touko is pretty bad ass, I loved how she died and then was like "I'm back!" 🤣
No doubt a badass (and also a realistic one at that by knowing when to not get back into the fight!), but I also found her as chillingly ruthless as Araya, with how she was quite willing to win at any costs, including sacrificing a perfect copy of herself, and therefore effectively herself, to a fate like that to succeed. Made me shudder.
but I learnt a while ago that the series doesn't need you to fully understand events to enjoy it, I can see why re-watching these films is a good idea, but I confess I think I've forgotten too much of them since my last watch to really build on what I understood from my original viewing much
Couldn't agree with you more! Definitely best to let it wash over you. I found it interesting to dig into its lore after the first watch but I'd forgotten it all by this watch heh.
I liked how they showed Shiki killing the lock with a ruler 🤣
If she can see it, she can kill! That reminds me of how much I liked the animation of how she visualised the mystic death eyes skill after awakening from get coma - though that was very cool.
I should apologise that I have fallen off the train unfortunately. After the 2nd movie I haven't had an opportunity to watch it. I will try and catch up soon.
I've clearly been in the same boat heh.
I can see what you guys mean that Araya resembles Kirei, they even share the same VA.
I had a feeling it was the same VA! Definitely see a lot of the fate characters' proto-versions in GoS but none as obviously as Kirei/Araya. No surprise they wanted to hold on to a character like Araya in as similarly creepy a form as possible.
why oh why does Azakas flaw have to be shes in love with her brother. It is so lame and nasty and unnecessary.
Heheh my eye-rolling muscles have had some serious workouts with bro/sis-conning in anime, and it's a miracle the Japanese population is not a genetic mess if this is all hinting at underlying desires!
It's a shame that the ending of the previous film gives away who the killer is as it wouldve made the first half far more engaging if Shiki could've actually been the murderer.
Completely with you there, it really had a lot of potential to keep the speculation (talk about a misnomer title...) going. Even with Rio appearing as a blonde Shiki doppelganger, it could've very nicely kept the mystery and provided further misdirection until cockatoo revealed his identity nearer the end.
I agree with your assessment @WMD the film felt a bit over-long.
I actually thought that the story was paced relatively well in this movie despite it being long. Maybe it's just me heh.
Clearly it's all puppy boys fault for trying to stop her becoming a murderer.
Yeah I was wholly with Touko on this one with these two's Batman-no-murder rationalising just not holding water when faced with someone that was just not human anymore, and that too by choice. Still, at least Shiki had enough of him in the end and made use of those chefy knife skills.
The main set of 7 movies worked pretty well because the philosophical bits were short and not really the main focus.
Heh it was the opposite for me, I found the rambling (I'm one to talk...) in the other movies more bothersome and wished for a good bit of editing in those, more so than the epilogue. But maybe that's because knowing the story is ending I had more patience for the characters to have their one last hurrah. Though likely also helped by the fact that I did really like the third Shiki, confirmed only here, being the one puppy boy met right at the start and here at the end.
There was a bit of a plot hole at the end, where Kokutou consumed a highly potent drug that will apparently kill him, but nothing is mentioned on how he survived this.
Another good catch dude heh. It was clearly by the power of luuuurrve.
Also I kept thinking that bad guy, Shirazumi, looked like Ed from Fullmetal Alchemist. He even lost an arm.
Heheh you really are very good at putting these links together.
I've found out that there is another film called Mirai Fukuin or recalled out summer. I wonder if that will ever become available in the UK.
Likewise, though I really like the way the epilogue closes out the saga and therefore feel no need to watch another subsequent movie, unless it's based prior to the the epilogue in its timeline.
 
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Neil.T

Titan
Garden of Sinners (what a great title by the way; I need to look up again the meaning of the Japanese title, Kara no Kyoukai, which also sounds rather beautiful whatever it may mean)
I actually had a look myself out of curiosity. The Japanese title is written 空の境界. Wikipedia gives the translation as "Boundary of Emptiness" and MyAnimeList as "Borderline of Emptiness".

Interestingly, the Japanese title uses the kanji 空, which on its own is "sky". To give you an idea of just how poetic Japanese can get as a language, that kanji is also used in the Japanese word for "airport" (kūko), which is written 空港. It literally reads as "sky harbour". Neat, eh?

The kanji 空 is also used in the word for "air" (kūki). That's written 空気. The second kanji there is a widely used one that conveys a kind of energy. You may be familiar with its sound from Japanese words like genki (元気), meaning to be in good spirits.

Given this overlap, then, between "sky" and "air", I guess that the Japanese title of Garden of Sinners is using 空 to refer to literal empty space and, by extension, nothingness.
 

WMD

Cardcaptor
8. The Garden of Sinners

Not a huge amount to say on this one. I did enjoy it but it would've been far easier for me to follow if had been dubbed. The camera work was especially good at times and really added to the whole episode which was ultimately one character giving a lecture to another.

To those who understand Japanese how are Shiki, SHIKI and Shiki being differentiated in speech? If they're all pronounced the same how does a watcher keep up with which version is being spoken about? The subtitles clearly make it very obvious which is nice.
 

Lordhippos

Vampire Ninja
One of the things I like about Monogatari is it's ability to make the dialogue interesting, I was kind of bored by the discussions in Movie 8 which is why I turned it off. In Monogatari I found myself interested even when they were just talking about random stuff!

In general I think of this series as a good basis for how Fate turned out, I know they share the Nasuverse, but a lot of what we see here was training grounds for Fates production :)
 
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Vincentdante

Za Warudo
One of the things I like about Monogatari is it's ability to make the dialogue interesting, I was kind of bored by the discussions in Movie 8 which is why I turned it off. In Monogatari I found myself interested even when they were just talking about random stuff!

In general I think of this series as a good basis for how Fate turned out, I know they share the Nasuverse, but a lot of what we see here was training grounds for Fates production :)
You're not wrong, it's seen as an alternative dimension to Tsukihime.

Fun fact: Shiki from Movie 8 is the most powerful entity of the known Nasuverse.
 
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Geriatric hedgehog

Vampire Ninja
I actually had a look myself out of curiosity. The Japanese title is written 空の境界. Wikipedia gives the translation as "Boundary of Emptiness" and MyAnimeList as "Borderline of Emptiness".

Interestingly, the Japanese title uses the kanji 空, which on its own is "sky". To give you an idea of just how poetic Japanese can get as a language, that kanji is also used in the Japanese word for "airport" (kūko), which is written 空港. It literally reads as "sky harbour". Neat, eh?

The kanji 空 is also used in the word for "air" (kūki). That's written 空気. The second kanji there is a widely used one that conveys a kind of energy. You may be familiar with its sound from Japanese words like genki (元気), meaning to be in good spirits.

Given this overlap, then, between "sky" and "air", I guess that the Japanese title of Garden of Sinners is using 空 to refer to literal empty space and, by extension, nothingness.
Ah thank you very much for the language insights, very interesting as always. The great potential in the language certainly makes for an interesting contrast with its unimaginative use in the light novel titling conventions.
To those who understand Japanese how are Shiki, SHIKI and Shiki being differentiated in speech?
That's a very good point, I can't see how they can be differentiated in the absence of subtitles...
One of the things I like about Monogatari is it's ability to make the dialogue interesting, I was kind of bored by the discussions in Movie 8 which is why I turned it off. In Monogatari I found myself interested even when they were just talking about random stuff!
Completely agree and as @WMD has mentioned that the writing in Monogatari is fantastic in how engaging it can be without even needing the action or fancy animation (as evidenced by the LNs). Something the Nasuverse titles can't begin to match in my opinion, but their fascinating lore duesi help make up for that.
Fun fact: Shiki from Movie 8 is the most powerful entity of the known Nasuverse.
That makes sense given how that Shiki was effectively referring to herself as omnipotent by being an embodiment of the Root or source of all in the Nasuverse. Tsukihime I had been wondering about and how it relates to Fate, whilst having forgotten that GoS is in an alternate reality to the former two. It would be nice to delve into Tsukihime somehow, if we ever managed to start on the epic Fate simulwatches heh (GoS has certainly been a handy starting point).
 

Vincentdante

Za Warudo
Movie 3 - Catch up part 1

Well the simulwatch is over so I won't beat around the bush with spoilers and lore dump. Shiki's Mystic Eyes of Death perception meets Fujino Asagami and her Mystic Eyes of Distortion. It's a classic story of witchcraft being vilefied as we learn that Asagami's father literally put a hit out on her, after using all manner of strange medicines to try and kill this power she had. It's ironic he never knew it was in the eyes and damaged all her nerves in everything but, though the mistake was an easy one as to the average person it would appear to be ESP or something to that effect. Asagami was really quite unfortunate to be born with Mystic eyes but not to a magi family, there is no Hagrid here to tell her she's a wizard Harry.

Then we have the events of the story itself. Asagami is insensitive to pain but a blow to the back heals this temporarily and kicks off a murder spree of revenge. The appendicitis thing was solved pretty early on when Shiki met her in the cafe with Kokuto's sister, Shiki's mystic eyes would have seen this immediately, she even asked "aren't you in pain?" to give the audience this hint.

But after getting a lust for murder after killing her attackers, she kills a random driver in her lust of rage. Shiki sets out to stop her and Asagami is pretty much out matched immediately, unsurprisingly so (to the lore) as Noble level mystic eyes are no match for Rainbow level. The outcome was decided and the real urgency of this fight was whether Kokuto could get there in time to try and help Asagami, though it was too late as Touko plainly pointed out. It was well animated though.

Still Asagami lives on, Kokuto believes her consience will eat her up when she calms down and will turn herself in. I ask will she though? All I know is... I will see her again in FGO where she helps out briefly in the Solomon singularity, but I refuse to level her up because she is trash compared to my servants even if she was free. :p
 

Vincentdante

Za Warudo
Episode 4 Catch up and Lore dump

Simple plot Shiki get's her Mysitc eyes and Touko get's 2 new new assistants.

We finally see how Shiki uses her eyes to kill SHIKI so that she is just one persona again, but we haven't yet seen how Shiki wound up in the hospital in the first place yet. Even though I have seen the series before, I am not sure even I can remember the exact events that caused it either.

Now I caught up I just wanted to clear up this this little misconception. The male SHIKI got killed in an accident and actually created the mystic eyes of death perception. At the end of movie 2 we don't see but we do hear the great truck-kun of the Isekai genre take him out. And the mystic eyes created from this are so powerful even a goddess can't take shiki's soul to another world to slay the demon lord. Either that or the other SHIKI is currently in another world with a smartphone.

I have nothing else to add onto this epsiode so I shall lore dump what mystic eyes are for anyone who wants to know. Mystic eye themselves are far more common in the nasuverse than you may think, most magus have some basic common level mystic eyes to help them in their everyday magecraft which came in either as a side effect of their magic circuit, or artificially made by the magus themselves. It's basically a buff or low level magic that is attached to your vision. Touko is one of the foremost experts on mystic eye research in the clock tower so she was the best person to help Shiki incidentally.

Mystic eyes come in many different flavours, power levels and even eye colour denotes part of it's capabilities, sorted in convenient categories by the mages association as ranks. Most common mystic eyes are pretty low level, such as the being able to pass your charisma check with another person by looking at them. Illya from Fate/Stay Night for example has mysitc eyes of binding which are slightly higher level than the norm. Very rarely a person without magic potential will be born with mystic eyes but are mostly negligable, rarer still are these non-magic people born with powerful mystic eyes, such as Fujino Asagami from the previous movie. For reference "noble level" mystic eyes like that are rare even among mages, most magus would spend a fortune to aquire those eyes in fact. Thank you El-Melloi II.

Then you reach divine level mystic eyes, these are things like Medusa's mystic eyes of petrification or Merlins Mystic eyes of far gazing (as I unofficially call them). These are mystic eyes so powerful that the world can no longer create them, as they come from the age of the gods when magic was at it's most potent. Only heroic spirits or divine spirits could possess these. There are many other cool ones out there as well.

Then above those you have rainbow level mystic eyes. The Mystic eyes of death perception fall in this category. Literally the power to see the death of anything. Men, objects, the world, celestials, you name it and Shiki can cut it with a blunt knife. All she needs to do is trace the lines. Mystic eyes of death perception have such a conveluted requirement to obtain but the easiest way to explain it is you have to be dead, soul drained from body and buried 6 feet under, dead. But not... And even after that it's a lottery. In this instance we can thank SHIKI for his sacrifice was not in vein along with another Shiki. Only 2 people in the Nasuverse are known to have these mystic eyes and neither of them share the same timeline because they are simply that rare.

Shiki does it better than the other guy though, the other guy literally drains his own lifeforce when he uses the mystic eyes of death perception, a problem which our Shiki manages to get around. Aoko (Touko's sister) resolved this by giving him enchanted glasses that block mystic eye effects.
 

Geriatric hedgehog

Vampire Ninja
after using all manner of strange medicines to try and kill this power she had.
Ah I completely missed that, I didn't realise the family had been actively trying to exorcise her powers.
Asagami was really quite unfortunate to be born with Mystic eyes but not to a magi family, there is no Hagrid here to tell her she's a wizard Harry.
Heheh very apt. Again I didn't get much of an idea about the family background so this helps clarify her story. Very good point that it being a real shame that there was no appreciation for her superpowers!
she kills a random driver in her lust of rage.
On this point, I had myself assumed that she was about to be run over accidentally and may have done so in self defence?? I clearly missed something else for everyone to have taken away that it was in bloodlust.
so (to the lore) as Noble level mystic eyes are no match for Rainbow level.
Ah, had absolutely no idea about them having different levels. This is where expert info is very handy to fill the gaps!
The male SHIKI got killed in an accident and actually created the mystic eyes of death perception.
So was this instant then? My interpretation was, given that scene at the Root, SHIKI was sacrificed/chose to sacrifice himself for Shiki to survive following which the latter woke up with the Mystic Eyes ability in further exchange...
At the end of movie 2 we don't see but we do hear the great truck-kun of the Isekai genre take him out. And the mystic eyes created from this are so powerful even a goddess can't take shiki's soul to another world to slay the demon lord. Either that or the other SHIKI is currently in another world with a smartphone.
Hilarious!
Mystic eye themselves are far more common in the nasuverse than you may think, most magus have some basic common level mystic eyes to help them in their everyday magecraft which came in either as a side effect of their magic circuit, or artificially made by the magus themselves.
Good to know, having watched all of Fate/Stay Night bar the last movie, I had never come across mystic eyes whatsoever. Therefore I assumed that mystic eyes were the source of magic in the alternate Shiki universe and magic circuits were those in the Fate universe.
For reference "noble level" mystic eyes like that are rare even among mages, most magus would spend a fortune to aquire those eyes in fact.
And that nicely comes back to your point on the Asagami family and their lack of appreciation for the boon dropped in their laps.
Aoko (Touko's sister)
Random point on this, I had initially mistaken Azaka in the first movie for Aoko and kept thinking thereafter gosh they look the same, only to realise they only mentioned but never showed Aoko in GoS heh. Aoko and Touko's backstory would also be very interesting and whether these characters exist in a similar form in the Fate universe.

Thank you very much for the lore dumps @Vincentdante, I look forward to more on the other movies, especially the epilogue! Likewise even more motivated to do a fate/stay night epic simulwatch with your lore info, and given that hopefully we will finally get a release UK of Heavens Feel III soonish.
 

Vincentdante

Za Warudo
On this point, I had myself assumed that she was about to be run over accidentally and may have done so in self defence?? I clearly missed something else for everyone to have taken away that it was in bloodlust.
I think this interpretation is also correct, she really seemed to be out of it and walked out infront of a car. Wheather it was a reflex or not is probably open to interpretation, in fact I may even agree with you thinking more about it.
So was this instant then? My interpretation was, given that scene at the Root, SHIKI was sacrificed/chose to sacrifice himself for Shiki to survive following which the latter woke up with the Mystic Eyes ability in further exchange...
To be honest it maybe a case that I forgot some particulars here as it's been a while so I will play numb on that point until I see the next movie. Certainly though the male SHIKI did die which triggered the mystic eyes though
Random point on this, I had initially mistaken Azaka in the first movie for Aoko and kept thinking thereafter gosh they look the same, only to realise they only mentioned but never showed Aoko in GoS heh. Aoko and Touko's backstory would also be very interesting and whether these characters exist in a similar form in the Fate universe.
They do look similar don't they lol. Touko and Aoko are recurring characters in a number of works even if it's just by name, Touko actually has a small cameo in Heaven's Feel though it's barely worth mentioning. Aoko and Touko are also the main characters in a visual novel named "Mahoutsukai no Yoru" which came out in 2012 which no one really seems to talk about.
 

Geriatric hedgehog

Vampire Ninja
Aoko and Touko are also the main characters in a visual novel named "Mahoutsukai no Yoru" which came out in 2012 which no one really seems to talk about.
Yeah I wasn't aware of that either. I do recall reading about Aoko being a bigwig and after looking up again I see that she has the fifth magic...Definite bigwig then!

I'm guessing that most of the Nasuverse media is in visual novel form, and mostly untranslated, so therefore likely quite difficult to experience all the stories firsthand for most. I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of FGO but just thinking about how it likely plays havoc with the timelines in the Fate universe is enough to give me a headache...actually it is probably just another alternate reality heh, but I'll get to that one eventually.
 

Vincentdante

Za Warudo
Yeah I wasn't aware of that either. I do recall reading about Aoko being a bigwig and after looking up again I see that she has the fifth magic...Definite bigwig then!

I'm guessing that most of the Nasuverse media is in visual novel form, and mostly untranslated, so therefore likely quite difficult to experience all the stories firsthand for most. I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of FGO but just thinking about how it likely plays havoc with the timelines in the Fate universe is enough to give me a headache...actually it is probably just another alternate reality heh, but I'll get to that one eventually.
If you end up giving FGO a go add me as a friend if ya like :)

You are right, a lot of it is untranslated officially and otherwise. So even my information is from what little there is in English coupled with a few fan translated VN's.

The anime series Lord El-Melloi II's case files (MVM released it this year actually) is a veritable treasure trove of nasuverse lore references if you would be interested in that?
 

Geriatric hedgehog

Vampire Ninja
If you end up giving FGO a go add me as a friend if ya like :)
I was referring to the anime adaptations as I didn't think the game was actually available in the West?! But thanks for the offer and it would be great to have a knowledgeable buddy when I eventually get around to it (after I've cleared my all my old PlayStation games backlog that I recently started on and not forgetting the Higurashi VNs that I'm still struggling to get through!!).
The anime series Lord El-Melloi II's case files (MVM released it this year actually) is a veritable treasure trove of nasuverse lore references if you would be interested in that?
Ah that is good to know and it's been on my streaming list so based on that I'll start with that before the epic Fate/stay night re-watch before I get myself a local copy of Heavens Feel III. Hmmm this all sounds like perfect fodder for an epic simulwatch soon then if others would be interested, especially with the GoS story relatively fresh in our minds.
 

Vincentdante

Za Warudo
Movie 5 - High maintanence

To qoute a certain Archer from a certain not official Fate series, if you want to talk high maintanence we should talk about the moon.

There is alot of terminology used by magus which basically all mean the same thing, so for my own simplicity I will use the terminology that I'm more familiar with. In this case:

The Vortex of Radix = The Root
The Deterrent Force = The Counter Force

To explain these as simply as possible the Root is the heart of the planet, the Counter Force is the Will of the planet. When talking about the Nasuverse you usually talk about parralel worlds, but it can be believed that the root and counter force are the same entity in any dimension as the existence of the 2nd magic is true.

The goal of the magi is to reach the root, this is where the true magic resides. When true magic is referenced in Fate it will be called something like the 2nd magic, or the 5th magic (1&5 in particular came from the magi that reached the root mentioned in this movie, whom were wiped out when they reached it). The purpose of the holy grail war in Fate is one such means to reach the root. Once the holy grail is filled with the essence of 7 heroic spirits it will overfill and a path to the root can be opened.

The counter force doesn't want us smelly humans reaching the Root, because when you reach the heart of something you have power over it, you could even kill it if you wished.

So the moon is basically set up to wipe us out if we step out of line, err I mean the Counter Force will act to manipulate the magus away from his path. Depending on the severity of the threat and competency of the magus the counter force can go so far as manipulate events directly to stop it, or to summon an agent of it's own to attack directly. A famous example of an agent of the Counter Force is Emiya Shirou aka Archer, he became an agent after he created a contract with the planet for the power to protect people. Yup Archer can be summoned at any time, in any place and in any universe but he isn't the only agent.

Araya cleverly tried to distract the counter force by having Shiki witness other events while his plan was going on. Shiki in this instance was the unwitting agent of the counter force who was set in motion to stop Araya, but we've all seen the movie so we all know how that went.

Anyway final score:
Araya - 0, Planet - 1
Einzberns - 0, Planet 5 :p

Btw does anyone remember Cornellius (the red top hat creep) appearance in Fate/Zero? No just me?
 
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Geriatric hedgehog

Vampire Ninja
Movie 5 - High maintanence

To qoute a certain Archer from a certain not official Fate series, if you want to talk high maintanence we should talk about the moon.

There is alot of terminology used by magus which basically all mean the same thing, so for my own simplicity I will use the terminology that I'm more familiar with. In this case:

The Vortex of Radix = The Root
The Deterrent Force = The Counter Force

To explain these as simply as possible the Root is the heart of the planet, the Counter Force is the Will of the planet. When talking about the Nasuverse you usually talk about parralel worlds, but it can be believed that the root and counter force are the same entity in any dimension as the existence of the 2nd magic is true.

The goal of the magi is to reach the root, this is where the true magic resides. When true magic is referenced in Fate it will be called something like the 2nd magic, or the 5th magic (1&5 in particular came from the magi that reached the root mentioned in this movie, whom were wiped out when they reached it). The purpose of the holy grail war in Fate is one such means to reach the root. Once the holy grail is filled with the essence of 7 heroic spirits it will overfill and a path to the root can be opened.

The counter force doesn't want us smelly humans reaching the Root, because when you reach the heart of something you have power over it, you could even kill it if you wished.

So the moon is basically set up to wipe us out if we step out of line, err I mean the Counter Force will act to manipulate the magus away from his path. Depending on the severity of the threat and competency of the magus the counter force can go so far as manipulate events directly to stop it, or to summon an agent of it's own to attack directly. A famous example of an agent of the Counter Force is Emiya Shirou aka Archer, he became an agent after he created a contract with the planet for the power to protect people. Yup Archer can be summoned at any time, in any place and in any universe but he isn't the only agent.

Araya cleverly tried to distract the counter force by having Shiki witness other events while his plan was going on. Shiki in this instance was the unwitting agent of the counter force who was set in motion to stop Araya, but we've all seen the movie so we all know how that went.

Anyway final score:
Araya - 0, Planet - 1
Einzberns - 0, Planet 5 :p

Btw does anyone remember Cornellius (the red top hat creep) appearance in Fate/Zero? No just me?
Thanks again for the lore dump! So I thought that the Root was meant to be the omnipotent source of all in the universe, I didn't realise it was limited to the planet alone. Also interesting to see that the counter force works through agents rather thanks directly magicking naughty Magi out of existence, I clearly didn't work that out from Archer or Shiki!! In relation to the magics, did the Eizenberns not get the third magic? Watched Fate Zero a while back and before GoS so will hopefully pick up on the weasley Cornelius cameo on the re-watch.
 

Vincentdante

Za Warudo
Thanks again for the lore dump! So I thought that the Root was meant to be the omnipotent source of all in the universe, I didn't realise it was limited to the planet alone. Also interesting to see that the counter force works through agents rather thanks directly magicking naughty Magi out of existence, I clearly didn't work that out from Archer or Shiki!! In relation to the magics, did the Eizenberns not get the third magic? Watched Fate Zero a while back and before GoS so will hopefully pick up on the weasley Cornelius cameo on the re-watch.
Nope they never got the 3rd magic.

1st grail war was more of a test run as a joint alliance betweeen the Einzbern, Tohsaka and Makiri families but they soon realised that only one of them would get the rewards and split apart. The war was actually called off while rules of engagement were written up.

2nd Holy Grail war was a massacre as no one survived it.

3rd holy grail war the Einzberns were wiped out immediately in the first battle

4th Holy Grail War Kiritsugu destoryed the grail.

5th Grail War is Heaven's Feel spoilers so I won't say. But if the 3rd magic did or did not happen it certainly wouldn't have been given back to the Einzberns either way.
 

Geriatric hedgehog

Vampire Ninja
Nope they never got the 3rd magic.

1st grail war was more of a test run as a joint alliance betweeen the Einzbern, Tohsaka and Makiri families but they soon realised that only one of them would get the rewards and split apart. The war was actually called off while rules of engagement were written up.
Ah, I see. I've got the story all mixed up in my head in relation to that Eizenbern from the first war (thought she got to the root but became the grail or something but I've clearly got it all jumbled up). I also had in my head that one of the first eizenberns did get to the root and obtain one of the magics and that Aoko had the 5th? How do you understand these 5 magics in the Nasuverse and are they shared amongst/common to the various realities or does each universe has its own 5 in existence?
3rd holy grail war the Einzberns were wiped out immediately in the first battle
Yeah I remember this being referred to in Fate Apocrypha before it diverged from the Stay Night universe. Can't recall having come across any info on the second war yet myself.
 

Vincentdante

Za Warudo
Ah, I see. I've got the story all mixed up in my head in relation to that Eizenbern from the first war (thought she got to the root but became the grail or something but I've clearly got it all jumbled up). I also had in my head that one of the first eizenberns did get to the root and obtain one of the magics and that Aoko had the 5th? How do you understand these 5 magics in the Nasuverse and are they shared amongst/common to the various realities or does each universe has its own 5 in existence?

Yeah I remember this being referred to in Fate Apocrypha before it diverged from the Stay Night universe. Can't recall having come across any info on the second war yet myself.
Nah the grail itself isn't the third magic. It's just that the Einzberns were really good at making humunculai which are used as the containers. (Tohsaka provided the land and Makiri provided the ritual to summon the heroic spirits)

The 5 magics are the same in all universes because they are absolute. Not all of them are really well defined though. The 2nd magic is the ability to jump between the parralel worlds for example. I shouldn't elaborate on the magics too much incase we do go into a fate simulwatch though :p

There isn't really any information on the 2nd grail war besides "it was a massacre." I suspect that is the reason the church got involved.
 

Vincentdante

Za Warudo
Episode 6 - What are you doing step-sister!?

A common criticism of this movie which is lost on everyone who can't see the original source material in Japanese is that this adaptation misses an important part. What a shame.

Also watching this movie it really made me think, I can't help but wonder how the Aozaki family works in the Nasuverse. Now that the Visual Novel has been fan translated at long last I should get around to err "aquiring" that.

Anyway Shiki and Azaka go to school to hunt a magus that can control fairies. Fairies in ther Nasuverse are a low level spirit, they are actually cut from the same cloth as heroic spirits just vastly weaker. Azaka is also just basically Akiha but not as well defined.

Yeah I don't really have a lot to say on this one.
 
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