Fan service and its appropriateness

Agreeing with all the sentiments and yes it would certainly be an expectation to adapt the source material accurately especially within the relevant genres.

Monogatari certainly is very intelligent with its commentary on fanservice but yes it does in the process indulge in it. Which is fine, as per the aims of the creators. But yeah my concerns also would be with the clearly under-aged element (can't comment on the light novels as I haven't read them). Also agree on the toothbrush scene which I found as hilarious as disturbing; it really does take skill to make such a mundane chore into THAT, without any overt titillation.
 
My opinion on fanservice, is that I appreciate it when I know it's going to be there, but dislike it when it clearly doesn't belong. For example, I found Super HxEROS to be a bit of harmless dirty-minded fun, but find that Tamaki's "Lucky Lecher Lure" leaves an unsightly stain on Fire Force that stops me from recommending the series.

I think another point is, would a series be fundamentally any different if you removed the fanservice? If it wouldn't, then I'd argue it doesn't belong. Going from my earlier examples, Super HxEROS wouldn't as the series is literally about horny energy, whereas Fire Force would only lose some awkwardly shoe-horned in gags. While Kill la Kill does have the life fiber storyline, I don't think the story really utilised it in a way that justified Ryuko's skimpy attire? Even Nudist Beach wore clothes to some degree.
 
Joshawott said:
My opinion on fanservice, is that I appreciate it when I know it's going to be there, but dislike it when it clearly doesn't belong. For example, I found Super HxEROS to be a bit of harmless dirty-minded fun, but find that Tamaki's "Lucky Lecher Lure" leaves an unsightly stain on Fire Force that stops me from recommending the series.

I think another point is, would a series be fundamentally any different if you removed the fanservice? If it wouldn't, then I'd argue it doesn't belong. Going from my earlier examples, Super HxEROS wouldn't as the series is literally about horny energy, whereas Fire Force would only lose some awkwardly shoe-horned in gags. While Kill la Kill does have the life fiber storyline, I don't think the story really utilised it in a way that justified Ryuko's skimpy attire? Even Nudist Beach wore clothes to some degree.
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I'd agree on that. Knowing what you are in for can change a lot of how you view the series. I don't mind much what happens with Tamaki but you are right in that removing that removes nothing from the story.
(Though honestly I'd wish for her to be a bit more useful in general. Some of her victories are less power/skill and more 'lucky' accidents.

On the topic of Kill La Kill, I should say that we should praise it for being considerate for everyone. All characters are ending up in minimal clothing. Hell, the leader of Nudist Beach gives everyone a show half the time he's on screen. Haha.
 
Takei Daloui said:
Though honestly I'd wish for her to be a bit more useful in general. Some of her victories are less power/skill and more 'lucky' accidents.
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Just finished season 2 and in the penultimate episode we see her have a training/flashback montage where we learn that the "Lucky Lecher Lure" has ruined her life at times and then in the moment of triumph it strikes again completely ruining the moment. I would like it to be gradually written out as she becomes a more and more useful Fire Force soldier.
 
D1tchd1gger said:
Just finished season 2 and in the penultimate episode we see her have a training/flashback montage where we learn that the "Lucky Lecher Lure" has ruined her life at times and then in the moment of triumph it strikes again completely ruining the moment. I would like it to be gradually written out as she becomes a more and more useful Fire Force soldier.
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A shame really, especially when initially she looked like she could end up being a strong character. But she's no Maka, that's for sure.
 
Takei Daloui said:
On the topic of Kill La Kill, I should say that we should praise it for being considerate for everyone. All characters are ending up in minimal clothing. Hell, the leader of Nudist Beach gives everyone a show half the time he's on screen. Haha.
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Yep, this is what I would always argue about the show too: the male characters don't get off any more lightly than the girls. It's like... equal-opportunities humiliation? 😅👍
 
Guess I'm one of the few that didn't enjoy Kizumonogatari, though I'm not a huge fan of the series altogether.

From what I've seen so far, Bake > Nise > Neko > Kizu.

Hanekawa's presence ruined Kizu for me and honestly, only the final fight in the third movie is very memorable and enjoyable for me.

But like I said, Monogatari is not for me, not just for the fanservice, but the fanservice combined with characters I dislike or find irritating.

I can see why people love it and would be entertained though.
 
Kizu had a different tone to the main series, but I still enjoyed them for the craziness.

The "second series" arcs improve upon the initial ones further in my opinion, and the story starts to tie together more as it goes along.

Shame if you don't get around to trying the second series as a lot of Bake/Nise is setting up for the later arcs.
 
A wise man once said: "Leela, there's nothing wrong with anything".

While you all seem like a perfectly reasonable lot (unfortunately, I was hoping for more fight out of this thread) I'm not sure I'll ever understand how fiction manages to get some people so bent out of shape. Everyone has things which appeal to their personal tastes and things which don't, and I've never really got the desire a lot of people seem to have to go to war on particular tropes that aren't to their tastes. Is it that difficult to just avoid them?
 
ayase said:
I'm not sure I'll ever understand how fiction manages to get some people so bent out of shape. Everyone has things which appeal to their personal tastes and things which don't, and I've never really got the desire a lot of people seem to have to go to war on particular tropes that aren't to their tastes. Is it that difficult to just avoid them?
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I also fail to see why people get so worked up about fiction that clearly doesn't fit their tastes. As you said, it's generally not that hard to avoid.

Where I think the discussion becomes interesting is when looking at works that do appeal to your tastes for the most part, but not in every aspect. Either you can look past those parts/elements or you're left slightly disappointed wondering "if only". It's at these points that fan service can be an eye sore. As also mentioned in this thread, more often than not fan service isn't integral to the story or its themes, making it quite optional.

For the most part I don't mind fan service, but I do roll my eyes whenever they feel the need to emphasize it with the camera angle, obnoxious SFX and a different background. Simply letting it take place works a lot better in my opinion. When done right it often doesn't even matter if the subject appeals to me or not, as I can just observe it in an objective manner. Effectively you're free to have your own reaction to it, whereas with the aforementioned emphasis, it feels as if they determine your reaction to it for you.
 
A lot of the time too, shows either do one of two things if they have it. Either they include token fanservice, in which case you can get annoyed or not but it's not normally that important to the show and easily forgotten when it matters, or it's the premise of the show. The latter sometimes causes more fights but let's be honest, if you go into a show with the latter you knew what you were signing up for.
 
IdiomaticLynx said:
Where I think the discussion becomes interesting is when looking at works that do appeal to your tastes for the most part, but not in every aspect.
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Takei Daloui said:
Either they include token fanservice
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This is where my beef with fanservice lies too. It's in those moments where you're minding your own business watching something and all of a sudden you get some unexpected fanservice shoved in your face.

In those cases, I find myself going "Nooo... why."🤦‍♂️

The way I would define my own stance on this, basically, is that I would entertain watching an anime despite the fan service, but I couldn't be bothered watching one expressly for the fanservice.
 
Neil.T said:
This is where my beef with fanservice lies too. It's in those moments where you're minding your own business watching something and all of a sudden you get some unexpected fanservice shoved in your face.

In those cases, I find myself going "Nooo... why."🤦‍♂️

The way I would define my own stance on this, basically, is that I would entertain watching an anime despite the fan service, but I couldn't be bothered watching one expressly for the fanservice.
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At least for those where it tends to be surprise types, it is usually more focused in the first parts of the series. In those early days, they need to do everything to hook readers. Sometimes it's as simple as stuff like that just to keep people long enough.

Except if it's Fire Force. Fire Force just makes it a running gag.
 
Lordhippos said:
Even fictional drawings or work can be problematic, I know it's not real, but damn they can get close. Look at things like Your Name, it's not photo realistic, but the art is so good it almost mirrors reality.
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Continuing this discussion here because I think it's better it doesn't intrude too much on the GL simulwatch. People are there to have fun, really, and I don't wanna spoil that by going off on too much of a tangent with this.

To start with, I do take issue with the way the word "problematic" is now used to describe what is actually just a matter of differing tastes. A burst water main is problematic, it definitely is a problem to anyone who experiences it and if they do, they can't avoid having to deal with it. A piece of fictional content that nobody is forced to consume and which some people do not personally like isn't a problem to anyone who isn't bothered by it or who actually likes it. Or for the very sensible indeed people who just stop looking at it when it becomes apparent they don't like it. The only people I can actually see fiction being a problem for is people who purposely keep viewing fictional content they find upsetting. And why would anyone do that to themselves?

I also don't think it matters how realistic it is, if it isn't actually real it's still fiction. I absolutely, unequivocally stand against any abuse and harassment of real people. But I also stand fast against the idea of thoughtcrime, that people should be policing fiction and fantasy that happens nowhere but inside their heads. It's the Father Ted "dreams/reality" explanation board; Most people aren't Father Dougal, they do understand the difference and have a very clear line between the two, and I think to suggest they don't or that line might worryingly blur if they consume fictional media is to infantilise them.

Lordhippos said:
I'd have problems with certain things being shown even if it was in an anime, and I think a lot of people would agree.
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I'm sure you're right, a lot of people would agree with that. Probably most people, it's why the BBFC continue to exist. I wouldn't, personally, but then I admit I'm in a minority there. If it's not real, I just don't think anyone is being harmed.
 
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Eh, there's no point in this discussion, because people opposed to fanservice feel that they are somehow righteous to look down on it as 'problematic'. Simply it doesn't appeal to them personally therefore it shouldn't exist. I took one look at the Gurren Lagann thread and bailed.
 
CommanderZx2 said:
Eh, there's no point in this discussion, because people opposed to fanservice feel that they are somehow righteous to look down on it as 'problematic'. Simply it doesn't appeal to them personally therefore it shouldn't exist. I took one look at the Gurren Lagann thread and bailed.
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I don’t think anyone has stated an outright opposition to fan service in that thread at all so I’m not sure why you’d have that reaction. I think there’s always a point in people who might disagree discussing things and making their opinions known, otherwise how does anyone hope to understand each other?
 
ayase said:
A piece of fictional content that nobody is forced to consume and which some people do not personally like isn't a problem to anyone who isn't bothered by it or who actually likes it.
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We've probably had these conversations years ago haha, but I don't think it's really as straight forward as this though. I mean, would you really say that negative stereotypes perpetuated in popular fiction doesn't/didn't contribute to societal perceptions towards certain groups of people? And that does lead to real life problems. Of course there are some people, like yourself, who are educated/strong minded enough to not be effected by that influence, but I think many people are. Those repeated stereotypical representations will build up in people's subconsciouses. Of course fiction isn't the only thing creating these problematic perceptions, but I can't understand how it can be argued to have no impact.

And vice versa is also true in my opinion, I think it's clear that positive fictional representations can and have contributed towards views changing in positive ways
 
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I noticed this thread while sleepily browsing the forum and thought it would be a good place to talk about the Kizumonogatari films, especially the third one that I watched the other day. I see that others got there before me 😂

As with some other posters here, I don't have an issue with fanservice in general. I don't even have an issue with it in Monogatari in general. But in that third Kizumonogatari film in particular, the juxtaposition of the violence and the absurdly long scene with Hanekawa in the gym right in the middle gave me tonal whiplash like, probably, no anime before it.

Or at least none that I can remember. It's been a long time since I watched anything Monogatari, and I never watched all of it, so perhaps Kizu 3 isn't the most egregious example of it.

As a side note, I also think fanservice is better when it's less overt - for my money, the "Gainax bounce" in Gunbuster remains the crowning glory of fanservice in anime - but I also find it amusing in Prison School, for example, where the female (and male!) form is deliberately exaggerated to the point of absurdity.
 
ayase said:
To start with, I do take issue with the way the word "problematic" is now used to describe what is actually just a matter of differing tastes. A burst water main is problematic, it definitely is a problem to anyone who experiences it and if they do, they can't avoid having to deal with it. A piece of fictional content that nobody is forced to consume and which some people do not personally like isn't a problem to anyone who isn't bothered by it or who actually likes it. Or for the very sensible indeed people who just stop looking at it when it becomes apparent they don't like it. The only people I can actually see fiction being a problem for is people who purposely keep viewing fictional content they find upsetting. And why would anyone do that to themselves?
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Speaking for myself I will often watch shows without knowing anything about them going in, so it's not always clear what I will see before I see it.

My main argument I suppose is that where fanservice exists I think the girls should at least look reasonably age appropriate for it.

I don't think "it's not real" is a good excuse to make it OK to include fanservice where this isn't the case.

People will have differing opinions on this, which is fine. I can watch shows where I find some of the fanservice distasteful (calling it upsetting is too strong of a description in my case).
 
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