Does the mentality expressed in this blog represent the majority of western anime fans?

Lord Bacchus

Lord Bacchus

Student Council President
I was googling when I came across this post that I believe perfectly encapsulates a horrifying mentality among many anime fans. The post is a few years old, but it is essentially someone ranting about why they shouldn't have to pay for anime for nitpicky reasons (i.e. crappy excuses). But what does everyone here think? I was aware that the people with this stupid mentality existed, but do they represent the vast majority of people who watch anime online? Basically, do you think these people outnumber the people who use legal sources whenever possible, and where exactly does this entitled attitude even come from?

Crunchyroll and why I refuse to pay for it
 
Last edited:
It is a known thing that a majority of anime watched online is watched illegally. The amount of people who pay for legal streams isn't anywhere close to how largely pirated it is.
 
Lord Bacchus said:
Ah damn, I hadn't realised it was already on here. My mistake. :-D
Click to expand...

It took me quite a while to find it even though I clearly remembered participating in the discussion at the time (perhaps I didn't want to imagine there could be two such crummy blog posts in one universe).

In any case, nothing wrong with discussing it anew framed by what we have discovered in the last few years. That poster has no idea what he's talking about of course.

R
 
I feel like when the conclusions of your article can be disproved using 1 > 0. You have to question your thought process...

"CR takes some money off the top, so not all your money goes to Japan, therefore don't use CR" is an argument so ridiculous, I almost find it physically painful.
 
Last edited:
Buzz201 said:
I feel like when the conclusions of your article can be disproved using 1 > 0. You have to question your thought process...

"CR takes some money off the top, so not all your money goes to Japan, therefore don't use CR" is an argument so ridiculous, I almost find it physically painful.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the main reason I posted about this (besides it being stupid) is that I've heard basically all of the points in that post echoed by others before. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around why to them Crunchyroll is the devil because only a small amount of money goes back to Japan, yet outright stealing is somehow better. :-D That last point about how Crunchyroll used to be a fansub site is the one that feels stupidest though "oh they went legitimate, but they used to be illegal, so therefore they can't support the industry. Now excuse me while I go to the illegal fansub sites that aren't supporting the industry". The stupidest thing about that claim is that I've seen it all over the place. These people rag on the legitimate sources, but then try to imply that what they are doing is somehow better for the anime industry despite the fact they are outright stealing. It baffles me.
 
Short answer no. Fans support their interest. Seriously though, the majority of fans tend to put money towards anime in some capacity, be it buying the DVD's/BD or buying the merchandise and collectors editions. Paying about 5 bucks a month is probably the least that could be paid. Hell even the most miserly fan is known to go to youtube where there are some legit channels (Funimation anyone). In saying that I don't know an anime fan who would go all out if they can get the same thing for a better price, but most fans appreciate the fact of paying for what you want. Those simply going to illegal sources are largely underage and generally uninterested in the anime. They are usually looking something else and for something in the anime, not the anime itself imo.

I will throw a spin on this though. What about something unavailable to buy anywhere? What of titles like Blue Sonnet or Goku Midnight Eye? How far would you go to have them? I'm in no doubt you'd buy them at a drop of a hat, but in the mean time?
 
cudwieser said:
Short answer no. Fans support their interest. Seriously though, the majority of fans tend to put money towards anime in some capacity, be it buying the DVD's/BD or buying the merchandise and collectors editions. Paying about 5 bucks a month is probably the least that could be paid. Hell even the most miserly fan is known to go to youtube where there are some legit channels (Funimation anyone). In saying that I don't know an anime fan who would go all out if they can get the same thing for a better price, but most fans appreciate the fact of paying for what you want. Those simply going to illegal sources are largely underage and generally uninterested in the anime. They are usually looking something else and for something in the anime, not the anime itself imo.

I will throw a spin on this though. What about something unavailable to buy anywhere? What of titles like Blue Sonnet or Goku Midnight Eye? How far would you go to have them? I'm in no doubt you'd buy them at a drop of a hat, but in the mean time?
Click to expand...

For me personally, I would admit that is the one situation where fansubs serve their purpose. If something hasn't been licensed and has no hope of being licensed then there is no method for me to get money to the right places anyway. Of course I could buy the Japanese copies and find subs online, but that would only make sense to me if I had had a previous opportunity to watch it and determine whether I am willing to pay the outrageous Japanese prices (it would have to be pretty special for me to want to). Of course in most of these situations I would just choose not to watch it, since there is a huge amount of legal anime for me to be getting on with. I think the last time I used a fansub was a few years ago to watch 'Legend of the Galactic Heroes', because at the time it had no chance in hell of being licensed and sold. Of course, I will get an opporunity to pay for that eventually, since Sentai are working on a release of that now. In the case where I watch something I think it going to remain unlicensed, if it ever does become licensed I will immediately buy a copy.

I don't take issue with fansubs in all situations, just in ones where there is a legal localised alternative available and someone chooses not to use it and instead turns to fansubs (90% of which are just being ripped off from legal streaming sites these days). However, I would only use the fansub in the exceptional circumstance related above, meaning if something has been released either here, in the US, or Australia, and is OOP, I would still hunt down the OOP copies before I'd use a fansub. This also goes for titles which don't get a legal stream, but have a chance of a home edition. If I want it that badly I'll wait a couple years to see if a home edition materialises rather than pirate it.

I am aware that legal streaming sites don't bring all that much money back to the original producers, but since streaming the show is usually the first step in determining whether something is worth buying further down the line, it's better to do it a legal way if it has been offered rather than watch it illegally and maybe buy something later. For example, I have legally streamed a lot of shows that I'd never feel the inclination to buy after having seen them once, which means if I had watched a fansub I wouldn't even be supporting the tiniest bit, I'd just be stealing it. I have known people that literally just watch anime on illegal sources and then never buy anything regardless of whether they like it or not. They are out there unfortunately, and it is that mentality that is the problem. When I was at university, these people comprised about 90% of the anime club, so I wouldn't say it is just people who are unable to pay for things that are doing it.
 
Last edited:
I think the blog post can be summed up by 'pirates are always going to pirate and use any excuse to'.

I think the amount of people who watch fansubs (or let's be honest, CR rips done by a certain group) will always outweigh those of us who pay our subscriptions for legal access, but all we can really do is continue to teach new fans getting into anime about places like Crunchyroll and hope they decide to do the right thing.

Lord Bacchus said:
For me personally, I would admit that is the one situation where fansubs serve their purpose. If something hasn't been licensed and has no hope of being licensed then there is no method for me to get money to the right places anyway. Of course I could buy the Japanese copies and find subs online, but that would only make sense to me if I had had a previous opportunity to watch it and determine whether I am willing to pay the outrageous Japanese prices (it would have to be pretty special for me to want to). Of course in most of these situations I would just choose not to watch it, since there is a huge amount of legal anime for me to be getting on with. I think the last time I used a fansub was a few years ago to watch 'Legend of the Galactic Heroes', because at the time it had no chance in hell of being licensed and sold. Of course, I will get an opporunity to pay for that eventually, since Sentai are working on a release of that now. In the case where I watch something I think it going to remain unlicensed, if it ever does become licensed I will immediately buy a copy.
Click to expand...

To add to this: I very rarely watch fansubs and it usually is just in the case of something not having a legal stream and if that happens then I try to put money back into the series in some other way. For example, when it first aired Noragami didn't have a legal stream at all (or it was late casted to Animax, don't remember which) but since watching it I've poured money into it by buying all the currently released 18 volumes of manga. It might not be going back directly to BONES and the anime side, but at least it's going back to creators somehow. Noragami probably isn't the best example given I liked it enough to buy all the manga thinking about it...

Regardless though, I'm always happy to buy a couple of volumes of manga or maybe some merchandise to support a show that wasn't streamed (or sometimes even released later) legally if I took the time to watch it via fansubs. It's slightly warped logic in so far as it's probably not helping the anime, but it makes me feel better knowing my passion (and money) for it is going somewhere. I mean, failing that I'm subscribed to WSJ and J-Novels, so if the titles ever overlap anime-wise then that just helps all the more. ^^;
 
Demelza said:
I think the blog post can be summed up by 'pirates are always going to pirate and use any excuse to'.

I think the amount of people who watch fansubs (or let's be honest, CR rips done by a certain group) will always outweigh those of us who pay our subscriptions for legal access, but all we can really do is continue to teach new fans getting into anime about places like Crunchyroll and hope they decide to do the right thing.



To add to this: I very rarely watch fansubs and it usually is just in the case of something not having a legal stream and if that happens then I try to put money back into the series in some other way. For example, when it first aired Noragami didn't have a legal stream at all (or it was late casted to Animax, don't remember which) but since watching it I've poured money into it by buying all the currently released 18 volumes of manga. It might not be going back directly to BONES and the anime side, but at least it's going back to creators somehow. Noragami probably isn't the best example given I liked it enough to buy all the manga thinking about it...

Regardless though, I'm always happy to buy a couple of volumes of manga or maybe some merchandise to support a show that wasn't streamed (or sometimes even released later) legally if I took the time to watch it via fansubs. It's slightly warped logic in so far as it's probably not helping the anime, but it makes me feel better knowing my passion (and money) for it is going somewhere. I mean, failing that I'm subscribed to WSJ and J-Novels, so if the titles ever overlap anime-wise then that just helps all the more. ^^;
Click to expand...

Oh yes, that too. Since they started releasing them in English, I have been buying and reading the LOTGH novels religiously. :-D The only case I've found in which buying merch and derivative work to support an unlicensed show doesn't work out is with most really old shows, since there sometimes isn't any to be found.

You are also right about trying to point newer fans to the legal sources. While they aren't the majority, I have seen quite a few examples online of casual anime watchers who use illegal streams, who actually think Kiss (or something equivalent) is a legal streaming site simply because it might have been one of the first things that came up after a quick google search. Of course, those who go and find them on torrents/fansub sites know exactly what they're doing.
 
Last edited:
Demelza said:
I think the blog post can be summed up by 'pirates are always going to pirate and use any excuse to'.

I think the amount of people who watch fansubs (or let's be honest, CR rips done by a certain group) will always outweigh those of us who pay our subscriptions for legal access, but all we can really do is continue to teach new fans getting into anime about places like Crunchyroll and hope they decide to do the right thing.
;
Click to expand...

One advantage of Crunchy Roll and such sources have over fan subs and hacks is earlier access. Not a big advantage for older titles or area specific releases, but as more titles hit streams on a world wide release basis, the harder it is for pirates to get ahead of the game.

Another advantage is reliability and guarentee of product. Even streamed titles have a level of warantee that if they don't stream as described you are entitled to compensation of sorts.
 
Lord Bacchus said:
You are also right about trying to point newer fans to the legal sources. While they aren't the majority, I have seen quite a few examples online of casual anime watchers who use illegal streams, who actually think Kiss (or something equivalent) is a legal streaming site simply because it might have been one of the first things that came up after a quick google search. Of course, those who go and find them on torrents/fansub sites know exactly what they're doing.
Click to expand...

Yeah this is the biggest issue and it's actually one that J-Novel Club have been suffering with lately (although I know they aren't trying to stream anime!). A lot of people have been coming to their site thinking that they're just another fan translation group instead of an actual legitimate publisher. It really did show me just how hard sites have to work for people to understand that they are a legal alternative and not another fan subber/translator. It's a message that is hard to convey without shoving down the consumers throats and I think it's something even CR probably find hard to balance.

The worst of it of course is people who use plays like K*** and then won't listen when you show them the legal way of watching. :(
 
Lord Bacchus said:
Oh yes, that too. Since they started releasing them in English, I have been buying and reading the LOTGH novels religiously. :-D The only case I've found in which buying merch and derivative work to support an unlicensed show doesn't work out is with most really old shows, since there sometimes isn't any to be found.

You are also right about trying to point newer fans to the legal sources. While they aren't the majority, I have seen quite a few examples online of casual anime watchers who use illegal streams, who actually think Kiss (or something equivalent) is a legal streaming site simply because it might have been one of the first things that came up after a quick google search. Of course, those who go and find them on torrents/fansub sites know exactly what they're doing.
Click to expand...

The Funimation crew has said in the past the "professional looking nature" of sites like KA has led to people genuinely believing them to be legit, and being surprised when Funimation tells them otherwise.

Demelza said:
Yeah this is the biggest issue and it's actually one that J-Novel Club have been suffering with lately (although I know they aren't trying to stream anime!). A lot of people have been coming to their site thinking that they're just another fan translation group instead of an actual legitimate publisher. It really did show me just how hard sites have to work for people to understand that they are a legal alternative and not another fan subber/translator. It's a message that is hard to convey without shoving down the consumers throats and I think it's something even CR probably find hard to balance.

The worst of it of course is people who use plays like K*** and then won't listen when you show them the legal way of watching. :(
Click to expand...
I think the fact that J-Novel Club is run by a few individuals and not a huge conglomerate publishing group probably works against it. Whilst it's great that Sam is around and talks to people, it doesn't necessarily give off the slick image that Yen Press gives off. I hope it works out for them though.

I'm probably going to end my subscription soon though, I just don't have time to read those ebooks and I'm not sure I can justify £10 a month on something I'm never using.

I will say, I think CR have kind of dug themselves a hole a bit on that front. They seem to leave Miles on his own to do most of the anti-piracy stuff, which just leads to personal resentment against him. It might be better if they ran ads promoting themselves as better than piracy and why. If it were me, I'd even be trying to run my ads on KA (but maybe that's too pushy).

To be honest, I'm considering ending my CR sub too. There's just not much next season that I want to watch week by week and I have a huge backlog. Amazon taking Atom was an absolute bummer :(
 
Demelza said:
The worst of it of course is people who use plays like K*** and then won't listen when you show them the legal way of watching. :(
Click to expand...

Yeah that is the main problem when trying to point to the legal source. Many people will use something like Kiss exclusively and then when you mention the legitimate alternative they will usually say something along the lines of "why would I do that when I can get it for free". There's not a lot you can do about that sort of thing though. I mean Crunchyroll is only around £40 a year, so if they aren't willing to pay that much then there's not a lot that can be done. I don't think Crunchyroll could realistically charge any less than that.
 
It doesn't help our case for promoting legal streams when Cruchyroll are caught cutting the bitrate, and pirates showing that they have a higher bitrate copy than paid users do.

It will take alot of time, and piracy will never go away but hopefully eventually legal streaming will become the preferred method for a majority of anime fans.
 
Buzz201 said:
I think the fact that J-Novel Club is run by a few individuals and not a huge conglomerate publishing group probably works against it. Whilst it's great that Sam is around and talks to people, it doesn't necessarily give off the slick image that Yen Press gives off. I hope it works out for them though.

I'm probably going to end my subscription soon though, I just don't have time to read those ebooks and I'm not sure I can justify £10 a month on something I'm never using.

I will say, I think CR have kind of dug themselves a hole a bit on that front. They seem to leave Miles on his own to do most of the anti-piracy stuff, which just leads to personal resentment against him. It might be better if they ran ads promoting themselves as better than piracy and why. If it were me, I'd even be trying to run my ads on KA (but maybe that's too pushy).

To be honest, I'm considering ending my CR sub too. There's just not much next season that I want to watch week by week and I have a huge backlog.
Click to expand...

Yeah I think the fact it's not backed by a big publishing arm or is part of someone else more official (like when Crunchyroll launched the CR manga arm) doesn't help. Now that they're actually publishing books on Amazon and have Seven Seas working with them I think things are looking up. :)

I also agree that CR could do with promoting themselves as better than piracy as, well, CR rather than being Miles all the time. The anime community has gotten pretty sick of him jumping in on any and every conversation to do with piracy and I do think CR would benefit more by dealing with some of it under their brand.
 
Demelza said:
CR rather than being Miles all the time. The anime community has gotten pretty sick of him jumping in on any and every conversation to do with piracy and I do think CR would benefit more by dealing with some of it under their brand.
Click to expand...

I think it would help if they just had a CR branded twitter channel that was anti-piracy that miles, and other team members could use meaning it isn't through their personal accounts that they go tackle piracy. This then aims any hatred about being against piracy towards CR, and also helps them build a brand using their image instead of using the image of miles.
 
Lambadelta said:
It doesn't help our case for promoting legal streams when Cruchyroll are caught cutting the bitrate, and pirates showing that they have a higher bitrate copy than paid users do.

It will take alot of time, and piracy will never go away but hopefully eventually legal streaming will become the preferred method for a majority of anime fans.
Click to expand...

I've personally never considered Crunchyroll HD streams to look bad by any measure. I watch everything on a big television and never had any issues with quality. Maybe I am less discerning than some though. If there is a difference in quality, I certainly don't think it would be perceivable on something smaller like a computer screen. Maybe that's just me.
 
Back
Top