Cogito Ergo Proxy simulwatch [RS] (29/11 - 21/12)

No, I actually agree with you @Lordhippos ,I think these kinds of moments in anime can be pulled off (as seen here) but finesse is needed, I don't find it interesting on the strength of its concept alone.

In this case, everything was depicted in a sufficiently tangible and clear manner but still, mostly through direction and creativity, retained the malleability necessary for a scene that happens in the mental space. Repeating imagery and motifs, scene transitions, it was really cool.

The scene in Re-i's bathroom is very interesting in a mysterious way. Was he driven by sexual urges? Why the emotional response? Is it because Vince felt trapped and dissociated from what the proxy was doing? It's a remarkable scene.
 
João Gomes said:
The scene in Re-i's bathroom is very interesting in a mysterious way. Was he driven by sexual urges? Why the emotional response? Is it because Vince felt trapped and dissociated from what the proxy was doing? It's a remarkable scene.
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I'm not 100% as I think some interpretation is needed, but it feels like Vincent kind of knows what's going on even when the Proxy is in control, and having seen Re-i almost naked it was enough to drive him to tears he definitely seemed to care about Re-i enough not to want the Proxy to hurt her. I suspect the tears are his as I don't see the Proxy personas as really all that caring about much.
 
Episode 11
This is one of those episodes where the dialogue is so dense and filled with oblique inference that I'd have to watch it twice in a row to catch everything. It borders on David Lynch levels of confusing dialogue at times. The main focus here is Vincent's sense of identity, but it feels like we also have some veiled hints about the nature of the story's world.
 
Lordhippos said:
I'm not 100% as I think some interpretation is needed, but it feels like Vincent kind of knows what's going on even when the Proxy is in control, and having seen Re-i almost naked it was enough to drive him to tears he definitely seemed to care about Re-i enough not to want the Proxy to hurt her. I suspect the tears are his as I don't see the Proxy personas as really all that caring about much.
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if that's what made him cry then he's a creep and he probably likes anime lol

Yeah, remains to be seen if there's even a definite split in his personality regarding himself and the proxy. It's true that him wanting to suppress part of his identity proves that he knows exactly what he is, just that he doesn't like it.
 
Another catch-up...

Episode 10

"It's the victor who has the right to be just."

This episode has already been covered well in previous posts. I agree with @Dai that it's Raul who came out on top in his and Daedalus's exchange. The demeaning language Raul was permitted to use shows just how unbalanced the power struggle became as he turned the screws hard, and Daedalus even joined in using it himself. The fear in the former's eyes at one point was surely real too.

Did anyone notice the little Easter egg early in the episode with the gravestone that read "Chief writer: Dai Sato"? It was an unexpected humourous touch. 😆

Also, I was surprised when I first clocked the disc art for our Blu-ray set. Disc 2 shows Vincent holding his Proxy mask, which I felt was surely a spoiler, but this is actually no longer a secret going into episode 10, the first one on the disc. Just don't look at the discs before watching, perhaps.


Episode 11

"I have constantly suppressed and distorted myself in my frantic efforts to become a fellow citizen."

Revisiting this episode reminds me how much I like the word "steeped" in relation to brewing tea. It's not a word I've ever actually used myself, and that's a real shame. Language can convey so many things if the breadth of it is used, as we see here.

Another real-world reference lies in this episode. The old man makes reference to "Rousseau":

Jean-Jacques Rousseau was a Genevan philosopher, writer, and composer. His political philosophy influenced the progress of the Enlightenment throughout Europe, as well as aspects of the French Revolution and the development of modern political, economic, and educational thought.​
en.m.wikipedia.org

Jean-Jacques Rousseau - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

Language offers as many opportunities to confuse as it does to clarify. The "bow" that the old man refers to is the bow of a bow and arrow. It's just unlucky coincidence for us that English uses the same word for a tied ribbon and the same spelling to describe a stooping gesture.

There's one last thing I'll chose not to clarify in this post, and that is this: the voice that taunts Vincent in this episode is one that perhaps only returning viewers will recognise.
 
Episode 12

I like how Vincent immediately tells Re-l hes a Proxy. A western show would get 2 or 3 seasons out of him trying to hide that fact!

And little Pino getting herself into trouble :eek: even though I've seen it before a part of my brain was going "if that big guy gets her I'm going to start a riot!"

And so another Proxy falls but this time Re-l shows her hand! Oh the mixed messages Vincet is getting from her!

And poor Iggy. You could see the disappointment on his immovable face which is a real testament to the animators in use of body language.
 
Episode 12
What do you do when a part man, part god-monster-thing pushes you down and makes an awkward schoolboy confession of his feelings to you? I bet Re-l wasn't expecting to have to come up an answer to that one when she found Vincent, but here we are. That whole scene of her reaching for her gun while Vincent makes his doki-doki confession is uncomfortable, funny, and tense all at the same time because you don't know how he or the (at times) seemingly distinct Ergo Proxy persona will react if he notices it.

Still, the best scene is Pino bashing her mouth organ like a toddler while imitating Vincent's hopeless repair attempts. Now that Re-l has rejected Vincent, will he too be relegated to bashing his organ?
 
Episode 12

"But someday I'm going to put this bullet in you. Can you still say you love me?"

Dai said:
Now that Re-l has rejected Vincent, will he too be relegated to bashing his organ?
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That was worked in masterfully there, man! 🤣


My god, though, when Vincent went to face off against the other Proxy, he looked like Akuma out of the Street Fighter games. 😆

And he fought like him, too. Not half bad for the guy I thought would be dead within the first three episodes!
 
Episode 12

This is the Vincent confession episode. Both of his love for Re-i and his being a Proxy. Re-i wasn't quite buying it even when he straight up said it, but seeing is believing, as they say.

I got the impression Pino was a bit jealous, as she had been the centre of attention for so long until Re-i showed up.

He went super-saian on that Proxy, showing his true power to Re-i. She in turn showed her trump card, and used half of it up on the big guy, promising Vincent that he would get the other half later on. We don't know the name of this one yet but maybe it shall yet be revealed, it didn't seem like the talkative type.

Proxy count: 4
Dead Proxy count: 4

Poor Iggy gets sent off by himself 🤣

General thoughts:

The Proxys feel kind of like care-takers of what is left of the world, but ones who have seemingly forgotten what it is to take care of anything, or it's been so long they have forgotten how. Perhaps if they are they simply became disillusioned with the task after so long, if my theory holds any weight at all.

I tnink Re-i won't kill Vincent, or even try to, until she knows more. She needs him to help unravel the mysteries and learn what Proxys are.

Still think there is more to Re-i than her just being a clone, she seems to be linked closely to the proxies somehow.

The cogito virus hasn't really had it's place in things explained yet, except for how it gives the Androids self-determination of a kind, it's origins or purpose are as yet unknown.

Dai said:
Still, the best scene is Pino bashing her mouth organ like a toddler while imitating Vincent's hopeless repair attempts
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I enjoyed that scene very much :)

Neil.T said:
Did anyone notice the little Easter egg early in the episode with the gravestone that read "Chief writer: Dai Sato"? It was an unexpected humourous touch. 😆
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Yes I noticed that one!
 
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Catching up certainly has the advantage of allowing very desirable mini-binges of this wonderful series, though it means my thoughts are a jumble to put down.

There was a fascinating episode inside Vincent's head and while the viewer already knew by then, the introspection used for Vincent himself to reach the conclusion of being a proxy was very nicely done. Re-i certainly demonstrates no love for the poor besotted sod does she, distracting him whilst reaching for the proxy-killer. And we have Pino back in focus and adorable as ever when she interrogates Vincent, teasing him about having a funny look on his face when the talk is of Re-i.

Daedalus has his machinations (to be the one true Highlander!) in play though he certainly didn't seem very formidable whilst clearly fearful of Raul. How are these humans so different from autorievs if they're programmed with such specific/narrow raison d'teres? And for me a brilliant demonstration of how damned creepy the autorievs can look, when Raul's one's eyes are shown as bright red as soon as the lights go out with the blackout. The same autoriev red eyes (in the absence of much ambient light?) have made Iggy go from looking innocuous to terrifying, a similar effect being achieved by switching off the Turing app. Daedalus calls Monad Re-l, bringing up suspicions I've had as to what exactly Re-l is. That first scene with her and Ergo proxy had made me think then that the two had history, with that reaction of tears from both (a subconscious one for Re-l perhaps, rather than just from fear).

The lore remains fascinating with us now coming across a behemoth proxy in what seems to be a forested area. So far every proxy we've seen has had its own dome and some association or the other with humans/clones and autorievs. Therefore I assume this one is within or in the vicinity of another failed dome with only his one remaining autoriev in sight. Still getting the feeling of proxies being the leftover caretakers of a bygone human era with the current human clones being somewhat inferior imitations, and if anything perhaps the autorievs being the true successors now with the advent of the sentience granting cogito virus. Or maybe I've been playing way too much of the Nier games when I've gotten a chance recently heh.

Neil.T said:
Man, I loved Casshern Sins when I first watched it a couple of years ago. I reckon it'll make a good simulwatch when we all get around to it.
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It really is something that one and yeah I agree it would make for a good simulwatch.
WMD said:
God I absolutely love this episode! I love it when animes go down a rabbit hole discussing things like self identity. It's so satisfying (if sometimes a bit mystifying) to watch.
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Likewise, I've always loved a good bit of introspection in anime, if done well and unpretentiously.
João Gomes said:
Some definite Silent Hill vibes at the beginning there, from the obvious fog, to the dialog and even the music.
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Exactly what I was thinking before the opening credits rolled, that it was quite the homage to that seminal game.
Neil.T said:
Did anyone notice the little Easter egg early in the episode with the gravestone that read "Chief writer: Dai Sato"? It was an unexpected humourous touch. 😆
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I thought that was hilarious and was really expecting that to be the opening credits with all the creators names coming up on the gravestones but alas it just seemed a privilege reserved for Mr Sato alone heh.
Neil.T said:
Also, I was surprised when I first clocked the disc art for our Blu-ray set. Disc 2 shows Vincent holding his Proxy mask, which I felt was surely a spoiler,
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Good thing I hadn't look at disc 2 closely but I had definitely clocked a very awake Vincent on disc 1!
Lordhippos said:
The Proxys feel kind of like care-takers of what is left of the world, but ones who have seemingly forgotten what it is to take care of anything, or it's been so long they have forgotten how.
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Lordhippos said:
Still think there is more to Re-i than her just being a clone, she seems to be linked closely to the proxies somehow.
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Couldn't agree more, and it certainly feels like the path we're being led down on both of those points.
Girls with Guns said:
What language are you guys watching this in that you're spelling Re-L (or Re-l in lower case) with an "i"?
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Eva joke, I'm blaming @João Gomes. And now that I come to think of it, there was a house invasion in that too as the lady stepped out of the shower.
 
Episodes 10-12
3 episodes to not learn much.

Re_l, somehow, isn't dead, and Daedalus, somehow, as well as faking said death suddenly comes up with a bullet that can kill Proxies despite being the one who was researching them and coming to the conclusion that they were unkillable!

Vincent has a mind battle and spouts philosophical BS at himself? (I'm with @Lordhippos on this type of thing) And accepts he's a Proxy. And Re_l, somehow, finds him in this vast wasteland. There's been a few landmarks in the world, but they don't feel very connected, like a place-of-week type thing. It seemingly suggests that Vincent didn't go through Robot town and Re_l didn't find the dome. So Vincent and Re_l found two different places on the way to meeting at the same place!

First half of 12 seems more like a mini recap and then Re_l learns Daedalus' bullets work.

I started reading everyone else's replies, but then started skimming, but don't think anyone mentioned that it seems like Iggy has contracted the android virus? When Re_l goes to investigate when Pino is in trouble she tells him to wait because she's infected and he says "It's already too late" because he'd met her when Vincent and Re_l were making out! And at the end when she turns off the personality app he reacts (shocked and upset) when she confirms the order to return.
 
Episode 13
For better or worse, it's human nature to want an easier life. Before the industrial revolution the powerful took the monstrous route of dehumanising and enslaving others. Later, machines took on that role: printing presses, washing machines, computers, industrial robots, autoreivs. In dystopian fiction, the robot slave ultimately grows to resemble the human slave it replaces. In stories like I, Robot or Short Circuit a robot achieving self-awareness results in a fully formed personality and a desire for freedom. Ergo Proxy takes a more cynical route: the autoreiv becomes a human equivalent of the function they were designed for. Pino becomes a real little girl. And Iggy the obedient servant becomes a man who is obsessed with his master.

Re-l doesn't understand why Iggy wouldn't seek freedom, but she is the reason. She treated him unwaveringly as her property, and so the idea of his raison d'etre encompasing anything other than Re-l never occurs to Iggy. Of course, with emotion comes loathing as much as devotion, the two sides of the obsession coin. What happens next is as ugly as it is inevitable.

Today's Pino forecast: Pino doesn't have time to brush your stupid hair; she's reading.
 
Episode 13

Oh boy what an episode. Theres a scary idea of determinism here whereby even upon achieving self awareness and a soul a person still doesn't really have free will. Instead their raison d'etre comes even more sharply into focus. Dying protecting Re-l was always the ultimate form of service Iggy could provide, and he does so full of resentment and guilt. It's so sad and tragic.

Iggy's descent into rage, confusion and murderous intent is so sad to watch play out. The fact he knows Re-l will hate him for it but still sees no other option is really dark. Of all the chatacters I thought might die the first time I watched Iggy wasn't one of them.
 
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