Cogito Ergo Proxy simulwatch [RS] (29/11 - 21/12)
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Dango Dango Dango Dango Dango Dango Daikazoku 
Birdie Num Num
Straw Hat Pirate
Episodes 7-9
I think Re-l will be back, either she's not dead or a clone.
Vincent loses all of his companions except Pino. And they drift into a battlefield. What a fun trip.
The blonde guy was giving off Dracula type vibes. Now that we know what Vincent is, we need to find out who he is.
I think Re-l will be back, either she's not dead or a clone.
Vincent loses all of his companions except Pino. And they drift into a battlefield. What a fun trip.
The blonde guy was giving off Dracula type vibes. Now that we know what Vincent is, we need to find out who he is.
Lordhippos
Pokémon Master
That is certainly one way of interpreting him, living a very, very long time appears to be a feature of being a proxy, how long is not known yet, but it implies they could easily outlive a regular human lifetime, possibly many times over.
Catching up today and explaining some references.
Episode 8
The two soldiers who introduce themselves to Vincent are named after a pair of Aztec deities. The lieutenant is named after Omecihuatl, a goddess of fertility, and the commander after Patecatl, a god of healing as well as fertility. Another makes reference to a location called Charos. This is a reference to the ferryman of Hades in Greek mythology.
They also refer to their enemies as "Asurans". From Wikipedia:
en.m.wikipedia.org
There's another bit of translation in the Blu-ray subtitles that merits some comment in this episode. When the incarcerated Vincent muses ruefully to himself "I bring death to everyone", the Japanese phrase used is actually akin to "What am I, a shinigami?"
A shinigami in Japanese culture is a god of death. Ryuuk from Death Note is probably the best-known example of a portrayal of one in anime and manga.
From that, the female Proxy is referred to as Senex by the female captive:
en.m.wikipedia.org
Episode 8
The two soldiers who introduce themselves to Vincent are named after a pair of Aztec deities. The lieutenant is named after Omecihuatl, a goddess of fertility, and the commander after Patecatl, a god of healing as well as fertility. Another makes reference to a location called Charos. This is a reference to the ferryman of Hades in Greek mythology.
They also refer to their enemies as "Asurans". From Wikipedia:
Asuras are a class of beings in Indian religions. They are described as power-seeking clans related to the more benevolent Devas (also known as Suras) in Hinduism. In its Buddhist context, the word is sometimes translated "titan", "demigod", or "antigod".
...
According to Hindu scriptures, the Asuras are in constant battle with the Devas.
...
According to Hindu scriptures, the Asuras are in constant battle with the Devas.
Asura - Wikipedia
There's another bit of translation in the Blu-ray subtitles that merits some comment in this episode. When the incarcerated Vincent muses ruefully to himself "I bring death to everyone", the Japanese phrase used is actually akin to "What am I, a shinigami?"
A shinigami in Japanese culture is a god of death. Ryuuk from Death Note is probably the best-known example of a portrayal of one in anime and manga.
From that, the female Proxy is referred to as Senex by the female captive:
The wise old man (also called senex, sage or sophos) is an archetype as described by [Swiss psychiatrist and psychoanalyst] Carl Jung, as well as a classic literary figure, and may be seen as a stock character. The wise old man can be a profound philosopher distinguished for wisdom and sound judgment.
Wise old man - Wikipedia
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Episode 9
"Without a purpose, I simply counted the minutes and suffered as my long life dragged on."
The dialogue between Kazkis and Vincent makes up the majority of this episode, so my post will focus on it and its particular subtleties in Japanese.
First off, in Kazkis's dialogue directed at Vincent, his changing attitude toward him is very much reflected in his choice of word for "you". In Japanese, there are many words for "you", and the choice of word will be decided by gender, by age, by the social standing of the speaker versus that of the listener, and by their overall relationship with each other, positive or negative. At the outset, Kazkis uses kimi towards Vincent. It has an air of comfort and familiarity in its tone here, but also one of perhaps communicating who's the dominant of the two.
After realising, though, that Vincent does not even remember killing Senex, his view of him becomes poisoned, and he immediately switches to kisama. It's a word that was once upon a time a term of respect, but it's now not something that would be polite or socially acceptable to use in any context. He also uses onore, another term of contempt that instantly keys the viewer in on how lowly the speaker views the listener.
Both of the above terms are actually only ever heard in fiction now. Their continued use, though, helps preserve their meaning and adds an extra layer of character interaction that just doesn't exist in English.
In case anyone might be wondering how Vincent was addressing Kazkis, by the way, he used exclusively the word anata, intended in its typical use in fiction as a quite bland and neutral term. In actual everyday spoken Japanese, though, even anata can come across as rude and patronising if used in the wrong context.
Another observation I made is that the leap between Kazkis recalling the name of Vincent's home and then suddenly bringing up the name Monad is more logical than the Blu-ray subtitles may have made it appear. My translation of the Japanese dialogue:
"You said you were in Mosk, didn't you? Now I get it: that's Monad's, isn't it. You must've handed over your memories."
In other words, Kazkis actually draws his conclusion based on Monad's apparent connection to the Mosk dome.
Last observation: when Kazkis identifies himself as "the agent of brilliance", he means brilliance in the sense of "dazzling light". The word is kagayaki and is the same as in the Japanese title of the mecha anime Star Driver, which is Kagayaki no Takuto.
"Without a purpose, I simply counted the minutes and suffered as my long life dragged on."
The dialogue between Kazkis and Vincent makes up the majority of this episode, so my post will focus on it and its particular subtleties in Japanese.
First off, in Kazkis's dialogue directed at Vincent, his changing attitude toward him is very much reflected in his choice of word for "you". In Japanese, there are many words for "you", and the choice of word will be decided by gender, by age, by the social standing of the speaker versus that of the listener, and by their overall relationship with each other, positive or negative. At the outset, Kazkis uses kimi towards Vincent. It has an air of comfort and familiarity in its tone here, but also one of perhaps communicating who's the dominant of the two.
After realising, though, that Vincent does not even remember killing Senex, his view of him becomes poisoned, and he immediately switches to kisama. It's a word that was once upon a time a term of respect, but it's now not something that would be polite or socially acceptable to use in any context. He also uses onore, another term of contempt that instantly keys the viewer in on how lowly the speaker views the listener.
Both of the above terms are actually only ever heard in fiction now. Their continued use, though, helps preserve their meaning and adds an extra layer of character interaction that just doesn't exist in English.
In case anyone might be wondering how Vincent was addressing Kazkis, by the way, he used exclusively the word anata, intended in its typical use in fiction as a quite bland and neutral term. In actual everyday spoken Japanese, though, even anata can come across as rude and patronising if used in the wrong context.
Another observation I made is that the leap between Kazkis recalling the name of Vincent's home and then suddenly bringing up the name Monad is more logical than the Blu-ray subtitles may have made it appear. My translation of the Japanese dialogue:
"You said you were in Mosk, didn't you? Now I get it: that's Monad's, isn't it. You must've handed over your memories."
In other words, Kazkis actually draws his conclusion based on Monad's apparent connection to the Mosk dome.
Last observation: when Kazkis identifies himself as "the agent of brilliance", he means brilliance in the sense of "dazzling light". The word is kagayaki and is the same as in the Japanese title of the mecha anime Star Driver, which is Kagayaki no Takuto.
D1tchd1gger
Shrine Maiden
Episodes 7-9
7 gives more answers than I remember getting the first time round. Maybe the difference between hearing something and reading something. I do vaguely remember certain events when I saw them though, like the birth chamber and Re_l's death.
I'd completely forgotten the events of 8 and 9, although again when I saw some parts it rang a bell, mainly the helicopter falling part.
Noticed in the credits Troy Baker played a role in both these episodes. Soldier B in 8 and Kazkis in 9. Of course he's more famous for his video game work.
7 gives more answers than I remember getting the first time round. Maybe the difference between hearing something and reading something. I do vaguely remember certain events when I saw them though, like the birth chamber and Re_l's death.
I'd completely forgotten the events of 8 and 9, although again when I saw some parts it rang a bell, mainly the helicopter falling part.
Noticed in the credits Troy Baker played a role in both these episodes. Soldier B in 8 and Kazkis in 9. Of course he's more famous for his video game work.
Lordhippos
Pokémon Master
See, you used subtlety and language to work out the changing attitude. I used the fact that he went from letting him eat at his table (and basically acting more or less subservient) to trying to kill him!
You managed to work it out from just that?! You must be more attuned to little things like that than I am, then!I used the fact that he went from letting him eat at his table (and basically acting more or less subservient) to trying to kill him!
João Gomes
Thousand Master
Remind me never to sit at @Lordhippos' table k thx
Lordhippos
Pokémon Master
WMD
Guild Member
Episode 10
Raul starts out gloating to himself. He sure is confident. And sets up the bulk of the episode. I love Raul's and Daedalus' mind games. The back and forth is so good with each of them scheming and plotting just for themselves. And at the end they both feel they've won! Remarkably well written
On the other side of the episode we have Robot suburbia! So recogniable and yet so creepy and eery! The mix of future and nostalgia colliding in an empty, vacuous existence of nothingness. And this time Iggy is along for the ride! Re-l's dream sure is something. Was it just a dream or is someone or something hidden in this place.
Also the way the episode ends on footage of the robots just doing their chores in this empty place felt very weird. I'm sure theres a commentary there about how we all just drones in the system.
Raul starts out gloating to himself. He sure is confident. And sets up the bulk of the episode. I love Raul's and Daedalus' mind games. The back and forth is so good with each of them scheming and plotting just for themselves. And at the end they both feel they've won! Remarkably well written
On the other side of the episode we have Robot suburbia! So recogniable and yet so creepy and eery! The mix of future and nostalgia colliding in an empty, vacuous existence of nothingness. And this time Iggy is along for the ride! Re-l's dream sure is something. Was it just a dream or is someone or something hidden in this place.
Also the way the episode ends on footage of the robots just doing their chores in this empty place felt very weird. I'm sure theres a commentary there about how we all just drones in the system.
Geriatric hedgehog
Pokémon Master
Very nicely put. The proxies come across as immortal (Highlander indeed!!) caretakers of what's left of humanity, in charge of their respective cities/domes but bored senseless in a hopeless situation that they are quite happy to pick off their charge of humans/clones for attempted stimulation, with no heed like stepping on an anthill. The second combo cities don't seem domed currently so did they fail over time by losing a similar dome?
Aha nice one!
That was a very nice touch indeed and the viewer could certainly feel Vincent's disorientation at the two different presentations.
Brilliant analogy again heheh. They really don't like each other eh? Maybe Vincent's proxy namesake role had him so depressed he wiped out his memories to avoid his fate, even if for a while.Once again we have a Proxy showdown, this makes 3 encounters for 3 deaths, definitely giving me Highlander vibes
A bit strange like the Proxy powers as a whole quite literally get switched on and off, with how he seemed pretty parched before arriving in the second city, and you mentioned he got sick on leaving Romdo first (I had forgotten that) and lastly how his proxy form flew out when he fell off the ledge with Re-i (don't worry I'll get bored of it soon), to do what exactly (unless just survival) before getting back in the right spot in the water as Vincent.
Thanks for the language info & details @Neil.T, that's brilliant. So is Monad going to be the agent of memory (or dementia!?).
Lordhippos
Pokémon Master
Episode 10
We learn that the name of the first Proxy was in fact Monad, who was mentioned last episode. Which makes the order of Proxies met and killed: Monad, Senex, and finally Kazkis. Based on what is said and shown I think it's clear that Monad has a link to Mosk and Vincent, but also is known by Kazkis as well. If Vincent is off to Mosk I think some of the answers about Monad will become clearer there.
Based on events shown so far I wonder if Monad was actually chasing down Vincent earlier on with intent to harm, or maybe instead they simply wanted to re-unite with Vincent, but his lost memories turned things bad as the Proxy and his inability to control it meant he killed Monad in a similar way to how Senex died without it being a conscious choice.
The council confirms what we thought before, controlling emotions because "over thinking leads to crime". Raul is definitely not staying within the bounds of emotional control. Raul himself confirms that it was not him who sent the cogito infected autoreivs to attack Re-l, I'm inclined to believe him in this case, which means it's likely to be the council who did.
The reason for living is a central theme on this episode, the robots continuing to work despite no one being there to work for, but the reason they exist is not to serve people, it's to look after things, and in that respect nothing changes whether there are people or not.
What has Daedalus come up with here? To me it looks like she's made bullets that are capable of killing a proxy. I suppose this means that Re-l is off to meet Vincent and there we may see her use the bullets, or at least threaten to do so. I think we will have other proxies to deal with as well.
We learn that the name of the first Proxy was in fact Monad, who was mentioned last episode. Which makes the order of Proxies met and killed: Monad, Senex, and finally Kazkis. Based on what is said and shown I think it's clear that Monad has a link to Mosk and Vincent, but also is known by Kazkis as well. If Vincent is off to Mosk I think some of the answers about Monad will become clearer there.
Based on events shown so far I wonder if Monad was actually chasing down Vincent earlier on with intent to harm, or maybe instead they simply wanted to re-unite with Vincent, but his lost memories turned things bad as the Proxy and his inability to control it meant he killed Monad in a similar way to how Senex died without it being a conscious choice.
The council confirms what we thought before, controlling emotions because "over thinking leads to crime". Raul is definitely not staying within the bounds of emotional control. Raul himself confirms that it was not him who sent the cogito infected autoreivs to attack Re-l, I'm inclined to believe him in this case, which means it's likely to be the council who did.
The reason for living is a central theme on this episode, the robots continuing to work despite no one being there to work for, but the reason they exist is not to serve people, it's to look after things, and in that respect nothing changes whether there are people or not.
What has Daedalus come up with here? To me it looks like she's made bullets that are capable of killing a proxy. I suppose this means that Re-l is off to meet Vincent and there we may see her use the bullets, or at least threaten to do so. I think we will have other proxies to deal with as well.
Dai
Death Scythe
This is one of those things that's hard to catch the first time you watch the series, but it was mentioned in a previous episode that Romdo stole Monad from Mosk Dome.
Episode 10
It's interesting to see Raul and Daedalus trying to play power games with each other here. A lot of deceptions and false assumptions are peeled away in this episode, though there's still plenty of mystery left. Daedalus may end up getting what he wants, but it's undoubtedly Raul who finishes this round in a stronger position, even as his composure continues to buckle.
There's something eerie and sad about the empty city of obedient robots that Re-l explores. All the places we've seen so far are dead, dying, or deeply troubled. That phrase raison d'etre crops up again and again, and we keep seeing the slow decay that comes when it's lost.
Lordhippos
Pokémon Master
Birdie Num Num
Straw Hat Pirate
Episode 10
The human-free town with all the robots doing the jobs and chores looked like a 'the world of tomorrow' town.
Re-l is alive and now has what looks like Proxy killing bullets.
And did Daedalus call the frozen Proxy Re-l?
The human-free town with all the robots doing the jobs and chores looked like a 'the world of tomorrow' town.
Re-l is alive and now has what looks like Proxy killing bullets.
And did Daedalus call the frozen Proxy Re-l?
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I need to respond to these.
It's truly a pleasure, dude. What can I say? I just like trying to tease out those little details that might otherwise remain hidden.
Man, I loved Casshern Sins when I first watched it a couple of years ago. I reckon it'll make a good simulwatch when we all get around to it.
WMD
Guild Member
Episode 11
God I absolutely love this episode! I love it when animes go down a rabbit hole discussing things like self identity. It's so satisfying (if sometimes a bit mystifying) to watch.
Vincent finds a bookstore in the middle of nowhere and soon his mind is unravelling...or is it putting itself back together?
The Bookshop owner like a hipster Aramaki from Ghost in the Shell, even voiced by the same dub actor. Some nice 4th wall breaking which hasn't happened before but is a nice touch as various parts of Vincent's mind duke it out in a battle of words.
The use of repeated imagery and scenes with the Proxy mask over other characters is super cool and the way its litterally being played out as a play in the bookstore maze representing Vincent's mind and memories is very well done. The proxy identity breaking through into Vincent's new reality showing him theres so much left to find out.
I like how at the start of the series Vincent's eyes are always closed. Hes literally refusing to see the truth having erased it. And the more hes been confronted by it the more frequently he has them open finally seeing things for what they - and himself - are.
God I absolutely love this episode! I love it when animes go down a rabbit hole discussing things like self identity. It's so satisfying (if sometimes a bit mystifying) to watch.
Vincent finds a bookstore in the middle of nowhere and soon his mind is unravelling...or is it putting itself back together?
The Bookshop owner like a hipster Aramaki from Ghost in the Shell, even voiced by the same dub actor. Some nice 4th wall breaking which hasn't happened before but is a nice touch as various parts of Vincent's mind duke it out in a battle of words.
The use of repeated imagery and scenes with the Proxy mask over other characters is super cool and the way its litterally being played out as a play in the bookstore maze representing Vincent's mind and memories is very well done. The proxy identity breaking through into Vincent's new reality showing him theres so much left to find out.
I like how at the start of the series Vincent's eyes are always closed. Hes literally refusing to see the truth having erased it. And the more hes been confronted by it the more frequently he has them open finally seeing things for what they - and himself - are.
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João Gomes
Thousand Master
Same, @WMD, remarkable episode this was. The direction in this was really special, I feel. One of the more interesting down-the-rabbit-hole episodes I've watched in anime I'd say.
I appreciate them focusing on the erotic aspect of his flashback when he uh barged into Re-i's bathroom, as it were. It tells a bit more about him.
Some definite Silent Hill vibes at the beginning there, from the obvious fog, to the dialog and even the music.
Speaking of music, I'm loving the soundtrack; it's got an ethereal melancholy to it that fits the setting like a glove. It's really beautiful.
I was going straight into the next episode and actually watched 10 or so minutes but I'm too tired and will have to come back to it tomorrow.
At any rate, I'm happy Vince is ready to be his best self (lol) after finally accepting the truth. Need more info on Mosk, now.
I appreciate them focusing on the erotic aspect of his flashback when he uh barged into Re-i's bathroom, as it were. It tells a bit more about him.
Some definite Silent Hill vibes at the beginning there, from the obvious fog, to the dialog and even the music.
Speaking of music, I'm loving the soundtrack; it's got an ethereal melancholy to it that fits the setting like a glove. It's really beautiful.
I was going straight into the next episode and actually watched 10 or so minutes but I'm too tired and will have to come back to it tomorrow.
At any rate, I'm happy Vince is ready to be his best self (lol) after finally accepting the truth. Need more info on Mosk, now.
Lordhippos
Pokémon Master
Episode 11
I'm going to have to post a potentially unpopular opinion and say that I dislike this type of thing, with trippy introspection and the "what is real, and what isn't?" approach. It's more of a personal thing for me, I've never really liked this in any media I've seen. The only thing I give a pass to is Inception because it does it so well, and is less philosophical about it.
It doesn't take away from my overall enjoyment of the show too much, I just don't find it as interesting personally as the more straight forward story arcs we've had so far.
My take away from this episode is that this is how Vincent comes to accept his true self, and how the Proxy is part of him, and he is part of the Proxy, which at least puts that whole argument to bed that Vincent was having with himself
So much so they had to show it twice, I can respect that!
Imagine having just been dreaming of Re-i, and then waking up to Re-i like that, for a man wandering around in the cold dead tundra that would certainly be a very welcome sight indeed.
It will be interesting following along with what goes on next here. Re-i has a proxy killing gun, but I don't think she'll instantly try and kill Vincent, I suspect they'll continue on towards Mosk together, at least I hope so
I have a feeling that Vincent (or at least the Proxy part of him) will need to die before the season ends. It may be possible that the gun can kill just the Proxy part of Vincent without actually killing him, we'll have to see.
Another prediction is we'll see at least another Proxy at some point, maybe even more than one.
I'm going to have to post a potentially unpopular opinion and say that I dislike this type of thing, with trippy introspection and the "what is real, and what isn't?" approach. It's more of a personal thing for me, I've never really liked this in any media I've seen. The only thing I give a pass to is Inception because it does it so well, and is less philosophical about it.
It doesn't take away from my overall enjoyment of the show too much, I just don't find it as interesting personally as the more straight forward story arcs we've had so far.
My take away from this episode is that this is how Vincent comes to accept his true self, and how the Proxy is part of him, and he is part of the Proxy, which at least puts that whole argument to bed that Vincent was having with himself
So much so they had to show it twice, I can respect that!
Imagine having just been dreaming of Re-i, and then waking up to Re-i like that, for a man wandering around in the cold dead tundra that would certainly be a very welcome sight indeed.
It will be interesting following along with what goes on next here. Re-i has a proxy killing gun, but I don't think she'll instantly try and kill Vincent, I suspect they'll continue on towards Mosk together, at least I hope so
I have a feeling that Vincent (or at least the Proxy part of him) will need to die before the season ends. It may be possible that the gun can kill just the Proxy part of Vincent without actually killing him, we'll have to see.
Another prediction is we'll see at least another Proxy at some point, maybe even more than one.