A whole new era for the physical distribution of anime? Yes!

[Mohawk52]

@ Beez-Andrew
If your company can do this for Blu-ray, it can also do it just as fast for DVD. I always guessed that these delays were mostly artificial in pretense and market driven. I don't even own an HD receiver yet so a blu-ray player is even more further in the future, and with the credit crunch, rising fuel and food prices, and a recession tsunami rising up on the horizon, I doubt I will be replacing my existing system anytime soon. I appreciate the effort, but timing is everything, as they say. Add DVD to the bait and I'll bite, otherwise it's a non-starter.

Actually the delays aren't artificial at all - or some grand conspiracy scheme. Here's the problem when it comes to DVD for most companies:

- You have your license agreement that needs thrashed out for every title, usually between two seperate companies (Manga and Gonzo for example in case of Hellsing Ultimate).

- The above step needs to be done before any exchange of materials can begin. When it is materials can be dispatched for series, from then it can take time to have a release that is approved of by the licensor for release.

- This can add to delays especially as for DVD you must encode the masters individually for R1 and R2. Making it difficult for a simultaneous release as the R1 masters are normally ready first and US companies tend not to wait.

I fully understand the details of the process of getting the product to the customer, but you seem to be implying that this process is some how done in a faster way simply because it is being put on a blue coloured disc instead of a silver one, when we both know that it is the same no matter what physical format is being used, and when push comes to shove companies like yours can do a simul-release, and always could. Region coding is, and always has been, a marketing control stick and nothing more. I've had this discussion with other company reps in the past, so don't think I'm just picking on your's, and certainly not you personnally. I was never fooled by the lame excuses that "because licensing takes time it's impossible to at least release a title a few weeks between dates, and this just proves I was right not to be.

In my opinion the above may well change for BV's plans based on our structure as-is though, that will all be confirmed soon.

In terms of Blu-Ray, it's the most effective way to stage a worldwide release at the same time just now however DVD is also being closely looked at as we understand the need for simultaneous release of that as well especially in current times. Watch this space for news on it is all I can say just now . We're making our way to it though and things are only getting warmed up just now!

I don't think BE has a choice anymore if they want to survive in this economic climate change. Also effective in what way? Better they look at it another way. I would hazard a guess there are going to be far more DVD players actively waiting to play a disc in peoples homes, then Blu-ray at the time of this release. If this is just some ploy to get people to buy blu-ray, then for the reasons I mentioned earlier I'm afraid it's a bit shallow to float any big success. I've been waiting 8 years for something like this to finally happen, but at my age I can't say I'll be around to see the next if I have to wait another 8. Throw some more coal on their fire and riddle their grate to get the heat up a bit quicker, there's a good chap. :wink:

 

[Akaten]

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[beez_andrew]

I fully understand the details of the process of getting the product to the customer, but you seem to be implying that this process is some how done in a faster way simply because it is being put on a blue coloured disc instead of a silver one, when we both know that it is the same no matter what physical format is being used, and when push comes to shove companies like yours can do a simul-release, and always could. Region coding is, and always has been, a marketing control stick and nothing more. I've had this discussion with other company reps in the past, so don't think I'm just picking on your's, and certainly not you personnally. I was never fooled by the lame excuses that "because licensing takes time it's impossible to at least release a title a few weeks between dates, and this just proves I was right not to be.

That's exactly what I'm implying - as in this case they are all being encoded, burnt and produced in one location then spread out they are going. There is no need to send what often can be one or two masters at maximum between companies, no delay in then having them re-encoded into PAL or NTSC, no delays due to manufacturing problems in one of several different region's plants etc.

I'm afraid that up until recently due to corporate structure it would not have been possible to release worldwide in any format because we were subject to the same licensing talks everyone else was due to shareholders in Japan etc for BV. I completely agree with you that for a company like the Namco Bandai Group, simultaneous worldwide releases was the logical next step to grow in the international market though, after we bought back the shares from shareholders this was a realizable possibility.

I'm also sorry but what you cite as a lame excuse is far from one. It's a bit like "How long is a piece of string?" to be honest - some licenses take little time to bid on because it's all committee arranged by several companies who have international links, like Ghost in the Shell for example, whereas others everybody wants a slice of so there is a prolonged bidding competition on. Then comes debates on nuances in the contract, if you want digital rights for example that can take longer to negotiate for, take Ouran for example in the US as a prime case of that.

The market is however changing slowly to make it more realistic to release things with only a few weeks between dates at best but that doesn't mean up until now it has been a big conspiracy or excuse. There is absolutely no sound business reason to have not released simultaneously or as close as possible if there were not delays due to licensing or otherwise!

Given that every UK distributor loses out to imports at some % rate, partly due to dollar/£ rate and part due to release dates, do you really think we would have chosen to do that if we could release titles a fortnight or a month, even 2 months after the US releases in the past?

Region coding isn't the issue and I share your feelings about it - but the actual delays were more on the licensing front as well as on encoding between NTSC and PAL if there was any problems in the process (bad masters, encoding mess-ups etc).

So you're right in terms that the concept was not an impossible one, but what you feel were excuses definitely weren't as I'm sure any other UK rep would tell you ^^;.

don't think BE has a choice anymore if they want to survive in this economic climate change. Also effective in what way? Better they look at it another way. I would hazard a guess there are going to be far more DVD players actively waiting to play a disc in peoples homes, then Blu-ray at the time of this release. If this is just some ploy to get people to buy blu-ray, then for the reasons I mentioned earlier I'm afraid it's a bit shallow to float any big success. I've been waiting 8 years for something like this to finally happen, but at my age I can't say I'll be around to see the next if I have to wait another 8. Throw some more coal on their fire and riddle their grate to get the heat up a bit quicker, there's a good chap. :wink:

Effective as I describe above, you only need one master to produce the products, one manufacturing plant and away you go. You don't need to produce at least 3 different masters (1 for Japan, 1 for America and 1 for EU) and then have then encoded for each of the two non-native regions, then synchronize at least 3 separate manufacturing plants to have stock ready for release at the exact same time.

I agree though that the DVD market is a bigger one waiting to be tapped into by it though so don't worry, I'll turn the heat up and pass on the opinion then see what happens !

 

[Tasker]

I should point out for those that may take it that way, that I have no problem buying Beez products despite the encoding niggles and my above post wasn't meant as a moan.

I'd love to buy series on BluRay provided it's a series I enjoy and the definition is there to warrant it in the first place.

Beez have released several series that I love. It just gets to me that a little extra effort would make them look great, rather than just ok.

For instance, how hard could it be to seperate the sign subs from the main subtitle track and have them on their own? Not having them can really alter the meaning of a scene. ( such as the scene in Planetes where Hachimaki is reading Tanebe's will. )

As for lack of a dub, well there's nothing that can be done if there isn't one for you to include, but the lack of one will probably swing a 50-50 purchace into a won't bother.

 

[Mohawk52]

That's exactly what I'm implying - as in this case they are all being encoded, burnt and produced in one location then spread out they are going. There is no need to send what often can be one or two masters at maximum between companies, no delay in then having them re-encoded into PAL or NTSC, no delays due to manufacturing problems in one of several different region's plants etc.

NTSC/PAL conversion can be done in the time it takes to play the disc, so that would never have delayed a world wide release, once all the administrative "i"s were dotted and all the "t"s were crossed, and you are still only talking about manufacturing speeding up, which is exactly what I'm on about. The only reason this Blu-ray disc can come out at the same time is because at present there is no region coding for Blu-ray and therefore a disc pressed in Tokyo will play in a Blu-ray player in London just as well. But anyone with an SD Mult-region DVD player, like me self, knows that it would have easily worked for DVD just as well. The only delaying factor there was the reluctance of the Japanese to allow Region 0 releases. Also what happens to this instantanious distribution if Region Coding is implimented to Blu-ray as well? It is being considered by Sony as I write. I am glad that companies have now realised to futility of Region Coding and have come to their senses, so in that there is hope. However, you raise yet another potential problem then. What happens when there is a manufacturing problem?,( and don't say it can't happen :wink: ), who, where, and how will anyone be able to get recompensed for it if the disc comes all the way from Japan?

 

[melonpan]

is being put on a blue coloured disc instead of a silver one

I actually received a bonus Blu-ray disc with a Japanese CD that I ordered and the Blu-ray disc looks just like a regular DVD, but much more reflective... More or less just like a mirror to be honest! With a minute blue tint.

Region coding is, and always has been, a marketing control stick and nothing more. I've had this discussion with other company reps in the past, so don't think I'm just picking on your's, and certainly not you personnally. I was never fooled by the lame excuses that "because licensing takes time it's impossible to at least release a title a few weeks between dates, and this just proves I was right not to be.

I would be inclined to agree with you, but the more I hear from industry insiders about delays between releases, the more I pull away from any kind of conspiracy. There are, however, a few points that make me not able to pull away entirely.

So, from my understanding (from reading Shawne from Rightstuf's comment on a blog) - when a company wants to license something from Japan, they have to approach the "X Production Committee" for that show, and that committee contains several dozen companies, who each control the individual part of the anime, i.e music, merchandise, etc... And at least Rightstuf and Funimation say they absolutely have to have the digital distribution rights in the license agreement (so they can either distribute it online themselves, or if a television company wants to show the anime on their website, etc... And the major sticking point is the fact that the Japanese don't want to give away these rights, much more than any others, so it holds up the entire process. I read time and time again that the Japanese companies are at fault with the hold ups because they aren't willing to change and adapt...

Some things that I don't understand with this though... I can't find the original Darker Than Black or Ouran High School Host Club press releases detailing whether or not they included digital distribution, but both of these series (including Jyu-Oh-Sei, one would assume) got their materials delayed by 8 months (according to Funimation). I don't know how final a license agreement has to be before it's announced, but I'm guessing Funimation didn't get digital distribution for these titles before they announced them, so they were negotiation for 8 months before they finally got them.... maybe.
I've been looking around at press releases, and the only ones that describe what rights the company got are from ADV and Funimation. ADV never seem to get digital distribution rights, just broadcast and DVD rights (and theatrical rights in the case of 5cm per second). Funimation's latest announcements are varies, with D.Gray-man getting digital rights (from Dentsu), Gunslinger Girl season 2 not getting digital rights (from Marvelous Entertainment), Romeo x Juliet (from Gonzo of all companies...) not getting digital rights, Shigurui gets digital rights, Strain gets digital rights, KenIchi not getting digital rights..... So it's massively varied, and whether or not Funimation can continue to negotiatie for the digital rights, I'm clueless.
As for Bandai titles (which I was hoping the press releases would provide more informaiton because this is Andrews area), it doesn't go into the details specifically, and Kadokawa titles - no press releases are sent out it seems.

So, there is scope for the age old opinion (that I also have) that the Japanese companies are snooty as hell and paranoid about their own industry (reverse importation), so they delay any other world releases massively to stop that - this idea ties in and works with the vast majority of anime I can think of (Media Blasters have done some proper simultaneous releases, though). And looking at this news... It's not really anything special in the full and proper terms of a simultaneous release.... Because Freedom volume 7 (final) was released in Japan in May, and Gunbuster/Diebuster movies are age-old. So I'll be looking out to see if any real simultaneous releases happen in the future.

If this is just some ploy to get people to buy blu-ray, then for the reasons I mentioned earlier I'm afraid it's a bit shallow to float any big success.

My view - I don't think it's a ploy, I think it's just clever.... To ride on the great tidal wave that is Playstation 3 sales, and Playstation 3 is the driving force behind Blu-ray without a question. I think, to be honest, it'd be daft not to get behind Blu-ray from the beginning.


@Andrew: Just a thought I had after reading everything - am I right in thinking that distributors would rather have a bigger % of power in the production committee, ala Geneon who fund their own anime a lot of the time - I assume that helps the delay between getting all the license agreements out the door, and that would be why the likes of Geneon Entertainment USA got their releases out so quickly from the Japanese release.... And likewise with Kite (I think) from Media Blasters, who also help fund that.

So, if that's the case, is there a chance you could get Beez to fund anime in some way - or at least get their foot in the committee door? Or is that just up to Bandai, who already have their foot in the door... or at least Sunrise's door.

I feel like a lot of loose ends have been tied up in my thinking after all this debate. Yay for that.

 

[Rui]

The only reason this Blu-ray disc can come out at the same time is because at present there is no region coding for Blu-ray and therefore a disc pressed in Tokyo will play in a Blu-ray player in London just as well. But anyone with an SD Mult-region DVD player, like me self, knows that it would have easily worked for DVD just as well. The only delaying factor there was the reluctance of the Japanese to allow Region 0 releases. Also what happens to this instantanious distribution if Region Coding is implimented to Blu-ray as well? It is being considered by Sony as I write.

Uh, it already exists. I have a blu-ray player (PS3) which is set to the region which contains USA/JP (zone A? I can't remember). I assure you that both locked and unlocked discs are already out there and have been for a long time. My UK copy of Casino Royal (Sony) is not locked. My US copy of Curse of the Golden Flower (also Sony) is locked. I am 100% certain of this and my information comes from practical experience rather than conjecture. The unlocked discs are clearly a marketing strategy to encourage uptake and each studio (or their licence contracts) decide individually which discs to lock. Exactly the same thing happened with DVD. I remember it clearly and still remember the first time I got a disc that was actually region coded.

I don't see what's particularly irrational in their decision to pick early adopters specifically as their initial test market for early releases. As Akaten pointed out, the kind of person willing to wait longer for things to come out on DVD in the first place isn't really the kind of market to be too concerned with getting same day releases of high definition OAV series (with Gunbuster in particular you can already get the Diebuster material here on DVD and the Gunbuster part on ancient VHS, if you can't wait). The nutty early adopters like me are the type to run out and buy these deluxe sets in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I still buy and love DVD for most things and regularly buy cartloads of the things to watch. But there's no point whining that the very first two releases don't happen to suit one particular person. Simultaneous releases at competitive prices (as premium sets go) is something I can certainly stand behind. Heck, if they go this route long term with one pressing for the whole world then there's potentially no reason to region encode at all for Beez/Bandai and we might finally start getting some real freedom in our purchasing choices.

R

 

[Mohawk52]

My view - I don't think it's a ploy, I think it's just clever.... To ride on the great tidal wave that is Playstation 3 sales, and Playstation 3 is the driving force behind Blu-ray without a question. I think, to be honest, it'd be daft not to get behind Blu-ray from the beginning.

Agreed, but I think it is just as daft not to include SD-DVD as well, especially if this is some sort of test to see if this concept is actually profitable.

 

[Gundam Junkie]

So, does this mean that we don't have to wait a year or so for the Americans to be done with a title?

I've said this before in another thread, but why can't WE dub an Anime?
I know we have in the past, but they're arn't the sort of title I go for.

At least a DVD release is'nt too far off the Blu-Ray. (Whatever that is anyway :? ).

 

[Ramadahl]

I've said this before in another thread, but why can't WE dub an Anime?
I know we have in the past, but they're arn't the sort of title I go for.

Expense.
Dubs are expensive, if UK companies were to do their own dubs it'd make it that much harder to turn a profit.
And we don't buy that much anime to start with :/

 

[Mohawk52]

At least a DVD release is'nt too far off the Blu-Ray. (Whatever that is anyway :? ).

Blu-ray is High Definition DVD. It was first used in the PS3, but Blu-ray players are coming out in the shops if they aren't already there. It gets it's name from the colour of the laser used. Standard DVD uses red.

 

[MrChom]

At least a DVD release is'nt too far off the Blu-Ray. (Whatever that is anyway :? ).

Blu-ray is High Definition DVD. It was first used in the PS3, but Blu-ray players are coming out in the shops if they aren't already there. It gets it's name from the colour of the laser used. Standard DVD uses red.

The different wavelengths of light allow the laser to focus effectively on a smaller area of the disc thus allowing for more data per square inch and...oh god I'm boring myself.....


You put the disc in, magic happens, the image is slightly better on an HDTV than with upscaling, and either won't work on an SDTV or makes no difference.

 

[melonpan]

You put the disc in, magic happens, the image is slightly better on an HDTV than with upscaling, and either won't work on an SDTV or makes no difference.

You're absolutely wrong, actually. Upscaling is absolutely nothing in comparison to native HD content. By upscaling your DVD, you aren't 'magically' adding the extra information, you're just making the information that's there fit the HD resolution. The massive downside is that all the artifacts and problems that existed on the DVD in the first place are magnified as well, so it's even worse.

 

[Mohawk52]

If you don't have an HD Ready receiver, and especially one that is 1080p, it's pointless having a Blu-ray player. Personnally I think it's a waste of time with anime, unless it's very detailed CGi like Vexille, How much more sharper can a pencil line get? But to each their own, and if you got the readies, why not?

 

[MrChom]

You put the disc in, magic happens, the image is slightly better on an HDTV than with upscaling, and either won't work on an SDTV or makes no difference.

You're absolutely wrong, actually. Upscaling is absolutely nothing in comparison to native HD content. By upscaling your DVD, you aren't 'magically' adding the extra information, you're just making the information that's there fit the HD resolution. The massive downside is that all the artifacts and problems that existed on the DVD in the first place are magnified as well, so it's even worse.

Actually that's wrong. Non-upscaling simply blows up artifacts/jagged edges and makes your stuff look terrible.

Upscaling is a process by which your DVD player looks at the "missing" information and fills it in with best guess solution. Most of the time this actually makes an SD dvd look very crisp, and very sharp.

Now I've sat and watched a side by side comparison of 300 side by side in HD, this was meant to be a film that showed off the HD revolution, the difference was minimal....at best. The fact is that while SD exists most directors can't shoot to take advantage of the higher resolution and most of the point of it existing is moot. With anime it becomes more pointless, you have large areas of flat colour which is something upscalers deal with in their sleep.

Now personally I like HD for some things, I have my 360 plugged in to my nice 32" HDTV through HDMI and when the blu ray player comes out (which is inevitable, frankly) I'll probably get one, simply because I'm a film buff and EXTRA extra features would make me go all googly at the knees....although frankly I'll probably upgrade to 5.1 sound first because that's a much bigger thing for film than the minute differences between a good TV with an upscaler and Blu Ray/HD Downloads.

 

[Rui]

The difference between blu-ray and DVD picture for me is extremely obvious for most anime, though some DVDs do manage to pull off looking awesome. Most though I start up and immediately see the millions of flaws, then settle down and filter them out myself as I watch and get sucked in. It's not like I won't buy DVDs any more, but if there's a blu-ray alternative for something I find it's so far been worth plumping for that instead.

My DVD player does upscale. Incidentally I can't even watch plasma screens at all because I see too much weird coloured ghosting which doesn't bother some people at all (presumably all the people with plasma screens themselves) so I might be a little fussy when it comes to picture.

Blu-ray also accommodates much better sound due to space (as anime is usually bilingual this is a consideration) and black magic. I can't actually tell with my relatively rubbish hearing but apparently some people appreciate this.

R

 

[Is out of here]

I am glad to see a company trying this.....but if the average age of a anime fan is 18/19 how are they supposed to afford this??? being priced out again.

 

[melonpan]

My DVD player does upscale. Incidentally I can't even watch plasma screens at all because I see too much weird coloured ghosting which doesn't bother some people at all (presumably all the people with plasma screens themselves) so I might be a little fussy when it comes to picture.

So ghosting is a problem that happens with plasma TV's in general, without anything to do with the source? That sucks... I was looking into what kind of TV to get when I get my own place and plasma seemed the way to go if you want high-end quality.

Then I found out about lazer TV, no joke, it's coming out at the end of the year and looks set to a general LCD upgrade.

 

[Rui]

So ghosting is a problem that happens with plasma TV's in general, without anything to do with the source? That sucks... I was looking into what kind of TV to get when I get my own place and plasma seemed the way to go if you want high-end quality.

It's only a small percentage of people affected so you may as well check them out for yourself. The absolute worst is when it's high contrast shows (black/white areas) as the technology can't keep up with my eyes and I get huge streaks of colour everywhere ruining the picture for me. I watched some movies at a friend's house on their plasma and I found it unbearable but nobody else noticed a problem so it must be a relatively uncommon affliction.

I can't watch standard DLP projectors either as there's a rainbow effect that my eyes pick up with those and it makes me feel utterly seasick

We have a large LCD HDTV now and I'm very pleased with it. No problems at all (aside from showing up all the detail of flaws on my old DVD encodes but that's not really its fault).

R

 

[melonpan]

Actually that's wrong. [...]

Okay I hold my hands up, I was talking crap, I don't have a clue about upscaling, I've just read a ton of **** about upscaling and a ton of praise for real HD content, so I was trying to fill in the gap to show how upscaling is worse, but if you've tested it all then fair enough to you. I'm still going with the hundreds of opinions I've read on the subject of real HD content and how much better it is than anything else, though.
And, of course I'm talking about HD content that is done properly on Blu-ray, not some messed up encode that brings plenty of its own artifacts in. If done right, a Blu-ray encode can get rid of all those absolutely disgusting artifacts that seem to plague the VAST majority of anime DVDs I watch, though aliasing still seems to be a problem and that's a big blow because aliasing is something I personally cannot stand above everything else, it's disgusting, and especially in anime where there are tons of black lines it shows up more than anything....