Yuri, yaoi, sexuality and anime

[Vashdaman]

Hmm, I think not pigeonholing characters is one thing, but if there are so many shows with homosexual relationships and so few shows with self identifying gay characters, then I think that is a clear case of cowardice on the part of many of the makers of these shows. Rather than a deliberate artistic choice to present an open minded view of sexuality, I think it's much more likely a result of not wanting to put off a portion of the potential market for the shows, as I think Buzz already mentioned, and I think we should be honest about that.

There are many self identifying gay people in Japan, but as Rui mentioned, Gay culture in general in Japan is still not accepted to the same extent that it is in the west. It's getting better certainly, but there's still a long way to go, and the media definitely has a part to play if things are to improve just like it did over here too. I'm all in agreement that gay relationships are seldom portrayed casually and non-dramatically over here, and that is a big problem, but I'm not sure if just always completely ignoring a character's identified sexuality is any better.

 

[IdiomaticLynx]

Rather than a deliberate artistic choice to present an open minded view of sexuality, I think it's much more likely a result of not wanting to put off a portion of the potential market for the shows, as I think Buzz already mentioned, and I think we should be honest about that.

I'm all in agreement that gay relationships are seldom portrayed casually and non-dramatically over here, and that is a big problem, but I'm not sure if just always completely ignoring a character's identified sexuality is any better.

It's probably true that it has more to do with not wanting to putt off a portion of the potential market than with any artistic choice. However, I believe it is closer to the way I would like to see it depicted than how it's generally done over here (over-dramatically and excessive focus on the subject).

If you ask me, I believe sexuality is in no means fixed or an inherit property of someone's person. It can be changed by external factors (media, people around you, culture, etc...) as well as by internal factors. Do note that I do not mean that "different" sexualities are wrong or "curable" or just a "phase". All I'm saying is that it one can go through phases in their sexuality as well as that it can be changed (in some, perhaps most?, cases).

This is also why I believe trying to sum up your (or someone else's) sexuality with one label is fundamentally flawed (but not necessarily wrong). If you arrive at a label you believe aptly describes your sexuality at that time, it will most likely start to serve as one of the internal factors shaping your sexuality. As such, it will most likely remain at that sexuality, which (I believe) actively limits any further change/alteration it might have underwent.

Now I know a lot of people do not agree with this view. It just makes a lot more sense to me, given that a great many things change throughout our lifes (taste, interests and hobbies, ideas, etc...), yet sexuality would somehow be the exception? But ultimately, this is just me rambling with a mere sample size of one: myself.

In any case, to bring this back to my point of how I would like to see sexuality being depicted in anime (or media in general). It's quite simple actually, rather than focussing on some form of categorization/labelling of the sexuality of the characters, if character A is interested in character B, show it! What would differ from what we encounter currently is the ambiguity of the relationship between characters. Do not have them say they love each other as friends, but make it explicit (even if it remains one-sided). But more importantly, it should not be done that much differently from any romance depiction in general.

And in case the show wants to (fully) explore a character's sexuality, then starting with any kind of label is the wrong approach IMHO. Focus on the internal thoughts of the character. That way you can depict complex sexualities and/or phases the character is going through.

It's getting better certainly, but there's still a long way to go, and the media definitely has a part to play if things are to improve just like it did over here too.

To me, this sounds like the wrong approach. Humans are generally easily influenced by media (or just in general) to a scary level. Rather than using it to steer towards a culture where various kinds of sexuality are accepted, I think it would be better if the culture would come to accept it and the media (naturally) follows.

On the other hand, I fully realise that such an approach would likely not work.

 

[st_owly (witch)]

I read an interview with the staff of Tiger and Bunny a while back, and they basically said if one of them had been female they would have been a canon couple but because they were aiming the show at men they didn't want to have a gay couple as the leads in case it put people off :/

 

[Rui]

they were aiming the show at men

Hahaha... they sort of failed at that, didn't they?

I was pleasantly surprised (?) that one male character in a current series (it was in Fuuka) flatly just said they weren't interested in women and everyone accepted it with zero drama whatsoever, so far at least. I mean, it was probably just done for plot convenience but it was still nice to see.

R

 

[IncendiaryLemon]

Hahaha... they sort of failed at that, didn't they?

I was pleasantly surprised (?) that one male character in a current series (it was in Fuuka) flatly just said they weren't interested in women and everyone accepted it with zero drama whatsoever, so far at least. I mean, it was probably just done for plot convenience but it was still nice to see.

R

I also liked that. I wonder if they'll do something with it or if it was just to take away a romantic rival for the MC. I'm kind of torn on what would be better. I mean, if they give it some focus and exploration that would be cool, but if they just have the character be gay and it's not really a thing, I also think that's cool as it normalises homosexuality because it doesn't make a big deal out of it.

 

[Vashdaman]

And in case the show wants to (fully) explore a character's sexuality, then starting with any kind of label is the wrong approach IMHO. Focus on the internal thoughts of the character. That way you can depict complex sexualities and/or phases the character is going through.

Fair enough, but how many of these shows are even aiming to fully explore a character's sexuality? I mean, I genuinely don't know, I haven't really seen any Yuri or Yaoi anime. But it just seems a bit of a shame to me that anime depicts so many gay relationships and yet people in this thread seem to be struggling to think of many non-ambiguously gay characters. I fully understand where you're coming from, in that we shouldn't need to label ourselves, and I think it would be great if the world was less obsessed with categorising things. But the reality is there are many many self identifying gay people in the world, and I think it's sad if anime is choosing to ignore, or dance around, their existence. I am someone who believes that fiction, at it's best, manages to fearlessly plumb reality and show it to us, and I think on this subject anime is probably letting itself down.

To me, this sounds like the wrong approach. Humans are generally easily influenced by media (or just in general) to a scary level. Rather than using it to steer towards a culture where various kinds of sexuality are accepted, I think it would be better if the culture would come to accept it and the media (naturally) follows.

On the other hand, I fully realise that such an approach would likely not work.

What does it matter as long as it works? I'm not saying we should force the media to present anything, but it would good for everyone if creators stopped being so cowardly (as in owly's example) and took more risks, because eventually it does help attitudes to shift. We saw that over here in 90s when more gay characters appeared on our screens and tolerance in real life has since improved. From what I understand there are now more gay characters starting to appear on Japanese screens, but from what I see in this thread, apparently not so much in anime, despite there probably being a higher amount (at least ambiguously) gay relationships. I find that strange.

 

[ayase]

if they just have the character be gay and it's not really a thing, I also think that's cool as it normalises homosexuality because it doesn't make a big deal out of it.

This is pretty much my view on the subject. If a character's sexuality is important to the story, because it's a romance or they find themselves attracted to someone who isn't attracted to them because of their sexuality etc. then sure, delve into it a bit. But if it isn't important to the story and a character's love life is never shown on screen, why would it even matter? That doesn't make a character straight or gay, it just means their sexuality is never revealed, as is pretty normal in day to day life. Any character not explicitly shown to be straight could be gay, because people don't generally go around telling everyone their sexual preferences.

I think the other thing, as with all media, is that writers are going to (and should be allowed to) write whatever stories and characters they please. It's all well and good people arguing for more representation, but it's not the job of other creative people to create the media you want to see. They should be free to create whatever they like. If it really bothers people maybe they should look for a job in television or film scriptwriting - Be the change you want to see.

 

[IdiomaticLynx]

Fair enough, but how many of these shows are even aiming to fully explore a character's sexuality?

Not enough if you ask me. On the other hand, it is probably quite hard to do it properly and as such comes with a certain 'risk'. For that matter, most anime (and manga) seem to stay on the safe side of things that are known to work/sell and not just with the sexuality of the characters.

What does it matter as long as it works? I'm not saying we should force the media to present anything, but it would good for everyone if creators stopped being so cowardly (as in owly's example) and took more risks, because eventually it does help attitudes to shift.

In that case I agree. For some reason I thought you were suggesting to actively use the media to shift the attitudes. In the end it should come from the people themselves. If the creators step up to depict what they want (stop being cowardly and take some risks ), then that can lead to more discussion and exposure, which in turn might contribute to more acceptance.

I am someone who believes that fiction, at it's best, manages to fearlessly plumb reality and show it to us, and I think on this subject anime is probably letting itself down.

While I agree with most of your views on this subject, this is something I totally disagree with. To me fiction, at it's best, starts with a blank sheet, slowly creating a rich world and pulling you in. Basically fiction to me, is a way to unwind after a long day or spend my free time, effectively a form of escapism.

That's probably why I generally dislike it when stories clearly base certain places, people, events or politics on real world counterparts. There's nothing wrong with depicting it, but it should be abstracted and placed fittingly in the setting you create. Why must nearly all alien life form be humanoid? Why are world conquering parties so often clearly German or Roman? It almost always feels uncreative to me.

 

[Vashdaman]

I think the other thing, as with all media, is that writers are going to (and should be allowed to) write whatever stories and characters they please. It's all well and good people arguing for more representation, but it's not the job of other creative people to create the media you want to see. They should be free to create whatever they like. If it really bothers people maybe they should look for a job in television or film scriptwriting - Be the change you want to see.

But if you look at this situation as it is, I'm not sure I'm convinced that all these creators are avoiding having openly gay characters because that's just what they want to do. I think it's the opposite, as already mentioned it's far more likely the pressure of not offending and putting off a certain audience. Looking at all the ambiguously gay relationships that can be found in anime, that probably somewhat speaks of a creative desire to feature gay characters, but not being able to go all the way due to a fear that it's not what the audience wants to see. So they're probably doing what you don't want them to do right now, they are giving people what they think they want to see, just like in Owly's example. I'd like them to be less considerate of their target audiences.

While I agree with most of your views on this subject, this is something I totally disagree with. To me fiction, at it's best, starts with a blank sheet, slowly creating a rich world and pulling you in. Basically fiction to me, is a way to unwind after a long day or spend my free time, effectively a form of escapism.

That's probably why I generally dislike it when stories clearly base certain places, people, events or politics on real world counterparts. There's nothing wrong with depicting it, but it should be abstracted and placed fittingly in the setting you create. Why must nearly all alien life form be humanoid? Why are world conquering parties so often clearly German or Roman? It almost always feels uncreative to me.

I don't mean in such a straightforward way. All of your favourite fantasy/sci fi stories are no doubt rooted in the real humanity of our world.

 

[Rui]

But isn't asking Japan to change its entire mindset to cater to the current western view of how homosexuality should be presented quite a stretch? It seems to be getting there naturally by a different route (I don't think anyone would have even blinked an eye if the leads of Tiger & Bunny had got married at the end after seeing them bonding all season long, and Yuuri!!! On Ice dispensed with the shyness as much as it's reasonably possible to expect from a culture so intensely private about relationships in general). Openly gay characters are rare - and this is something which needs to change across society as a whole including in our own country - but there are plenty who present as not-conventionally-straight to anyone reading without assuming everyone is straight by default IMO.

Japanese culture has always taken a different path to us with regards to homosexuality in general. While we were burning random women at the stake for being witches and instituting increasingly melodramatic sodomy laws to ban homosexuality for no real reason (it doesn't sound that different from today), Japan was being dominated by rulers who ranged from openly gay to openly bisexual. Oda Nobunaga is a celebrated military genius/demon whose affection for one of his male assistants is one of the most famous things about him even centuries later, and it's not viewed as a big deal. Takeda Shingen is another historical figure still greatly respected in modern Japan, and he was very clear about preferring the company of men during his lifetime. There are numerous examples of leaders who opted to retain the shudou lifestyle and adopt heirs rather than keeping female concubines and wives around to perform the usual procreation duties, while others would take their concubines and politically-motivated marriages then also indulge in male relationships on the side without being questioned. Male-male relationships were normalised and regarded as enriching, so of course the lines for accepting strict 'gay' or 'straight' labels were blurred even back then. To ignore hundreds and hundreds of years of history which brought Japan to its current mindset would be the same as ignoring the hundreds and hundreds of years of history which brought us to ours, and all of the shame that should rightly be felt about how poorly openly LGBTQ+ people have been treated to date. Complaining about Japan being backwards seems to do the opposite and present us as forward-thinking when we were still chemically castrating people we believed to be gay only a few decades ago. As a culture, are we sidestepping our own feelings of guilt by worrying that someone else might not be as enlightened?

As I said before, the ideal society for me is one where anyone of any gender, race or background can find someone they love and not worry about being persecuted or judged for it because a bunch of zealots think that their religious prejudices trump basic human compassion. In such a utopia, there would be no need for labels at all. Since society seems to be struggling to get there on its own, many people are bravely coming out into the open and applying labels to themselves to make a stand ('I'm gay' is a much more compelling way to bring something into the limelight than a vague 'some men exist who like men'). I think that's very important, but if we can also push the agenda that loving the people you love is right and correct then to me, skipping that step from time to time is also ok. Better than ok; it's what I want to see in fantasy because it leaves all of the endless back-and-forthing we've had over the course of history behind and just gets on with depicting equality in love to show people that it's a good, wholesome way to live. I think that Yuuri!!! On Ice pitched it perfectly within the cultural context of Japanese society. If pushed to label I don't think it's wrong to interpret that Yuuri is probably gay and Victor is probably gay or bisexual (Yuuri seemed to think he had likely had relationships with women IIRC but nothing was explicitly confirmed). But however they personally might decide to identify their love was respected and grew into a mutually loving gay relationship. Great. And given how well it's doing, I think it's safe to say that the fear of depicting such things in a mainstream show might have taken a noticeable hit.

One of the strengths of anime as a medium is that a lot of the original stories come from very diverse sources; while you get the same core teams of writers behind a lot of different shows in the US/UK, in the Japanese industry the source material is often a manga or a novel which is that particular writer's sole claim to fame. As a result, to see a sea change in the way these issues are presented requires changing the attitudes of Japanese society as a whole (or encouraging directors to change the material to make it more representative which is difficult to do in a way that isn't awful unless they're deeply invested in the issues personally with all of the insight that involves). There are creators who are coming up with stories which explore what it means to be an actual homosexual person in modern times. We should support these, and if they ever get animated we should support those adaptations. When it is done right, why do those shows languish unlicensed or get quietly pushed out with little celebration? Why isn't Wandering Son licensed for home video anywhere in the English-speaking world, despite being closer to the current western ideal of how LGBTQ+ issues should be represented than many shows which have been? Why aren't more people reading and buying relatively mainstream titles like those by Yoshinaga Fumi and the very lesbian-tinged artsy josei works previously published by several different US companies, or LGBTQ+ friendly traditional works like those by Yazawa Ai, or the BL/GL titles which treat the subject matter more tastefully than bodice rippers where traditionally straight men/women are swept away by a sudden rush of passion for a hot newcomer?

I think that as fans, we have to examine how we feel about LGBTQ+ issues in anime for ourselves as individuals and in the titles we choose to enjoy rather than expecting Japan to change to accommodate us. We should support and publicise successful depictions and debate the more questionable ones.

Sorry for rambling. To lighten the mood, here's a pop song with Nobunaga and his page as idol singers shouting about how great their love is (this isn't the best version but it actually has English subs, even if they are probably still incomprehensible to people who don't like Japanese history).

R

 

[ayase]

As I said before, the ideal society for me is one where anyone of any gender, race or background can find someone they love and not worry about being persecuted or judged for it because a bunch of zealots think that their religious prejudices trump basic human compassion.

As a straight white male I like the idea of this society, maybe it would allow me to achieve the first step.

There are creators who are coming up with stories which explore what it means to be an actual homosexual person in modern times. We should support these, and if they ever get animated we should support those adaptations.

That sure sounds a damn sight better than the eye-rolling ham-fisted tokenism to show what a progressive enlightened soul the author is which seems to be the way gay people are depicted in a lot of western media at present.

 

[Rui]

they are giving people what they think they want to see, just like in Owly's example. I'd like them to be less considerate of their target audiences.

While I wholly agree that it's unfortunate if the production team tempered the series back just out of fear (especially as it's now been proven to the tune of 50,000 discs in one week that it doesn't hurt sales), it's worth mentioning that Tiger & Bunny still invested quite a lot of the runtime of one of its movies into developing Fire Emblem instead of opting to have Blue Rose or Origami Cyclone struggling to pander to its viewers. I know that the way he presents is problematic to some due to the extreme flamboyance and this trips a lot of the negative 'okama' comedy stereotyping, but as the series progresses it's abundantly obvious that Nathan is one of the best characters in the series for non-comedic reasons and I was glad to see him getting some well-deserved focus. (I feel like a jerk using male pronouns when he deliberately talks like a woman in Japanese but I'm not sure which way to go in English when the character is so clearly genderfluid.)

That sure sounds a damn sight better than the eye-rolling ham-fisted tokenism to show what a progressive enlightened soul the author is which seems to be the way gay people are depicted in a lot of western media at present.

Yeah, I get annoyed when I see promising representation on television then the character ends up dead/useless/a traitor or all of the above. In addition, characters who are only 'the way they are' because of a past trauma of some kind (non-neurotypical characters on TV suffer from this all the time too) or they're allowed to be gay but not allowed to actually go out with anyone unless one of them dies. Heaven forbid anyone is just happy the way they are or fancies someone the same sex as them without it being a massive life-destroying plot device on the sidelines of the 'proper' story going on in the foreground.

Tokenism never works. A lot of writers still can't even figure out how to write females and they make up half the population; people with different world views entirely must be completely out of reach for that kind of creator. I'd rather just celebrate the people who already have the proven capacity to handle it and make them big instead.

R

 

[Vashdaman]

Good post(s), rui. But I don't think this is another chicken and cake moment from me. I'm not trying to suggest that japan is culturally inferior or anything like that. You're surely no doubt right that there are pluses to the way this kind of thing is approached in Japanese anime ; I mean you raised many good points and the fact that characters with non-conventional sexualities are so embraced in anime must be a promising sign. But I think there are failings with their approach too, and for me the dearth of openly gay characters is one, and I don't necessarily think it's culturally arrogant to criticise these points, I'd also wager that there must be gay people in japan saying similar things to me too.

If I want the Japanese as a whole to change their mindset in certain regards with how they view homosexuality, then trust me I also want the whole world to change their mindset (including over here too). And I do. I'm not trying to claim that everything is hunkydory over here and it's just japan that's the problem.

But with that said, I don't think that japan is exactly the kind of sexually fluid and liberated utopia that's close to being conjured up in my imagination after reading your post. I know you're right about certain historical powerful warlords famously taking male lovers, but what about the non elite? And even if they did, I know that from at least Meiji, the elite of the country strongly pushed an agenda emphasising the vital importance of heterosexual marriage and family life. That agenda never ceased being pushed by the conservative elite who have governed the country ever since and can still be viewed being promoted in the media today. I wouldn't say that Gay love is normalised over there by any stretch.

So with all this being said, rather than a situation where labels are simply discarded and people can simply love just as people in love (a situation you and me both want to see), I'm worried that there's a potential for a certain amount of tolerance for young gay sexual experimentation but not for longer lasting love throughout life. There's a risk it's being trivialised unless more out and out gay characters start emerging, I feel.

Though I agree with a lot of what you wrote, and you've definitely given me much to think about

 

[Rui]

Oh definitely, modern Japan is just as bad as the west (just in different ways) regarding real homosexual people. I'm just saying that the way they got from A to B was completely different to the way we did (and we as Europeans hold some responsibility there by exporting Christians and other moralistic pressure - which is why I'm a bit unsure about how great an idea it is to try to undo the damage in the exact same way). Modern day gay people do still need to have their rights properly acknowledged over there too, but they're not fighting over ancient bizarro religious prejudice so much as dismissive conservativism. Equally annoying, with a different cause.

R