what kind of anime do you like?

Oh for sure it happens in the west too, but I don't think that's good either. I just thought it was strange, the idea of a show that is a mature adult drama being classified as 'women's anime', it's just anime. Also I do wonder if these labels create a self fulfilling prophesy, they probably do. If you call something jousei then more women and less men are going to probably gravitate towards it. I don't have a problem of people writing stuff from their own perspective or writing whatever they want, but I can't imagine many writers of 'jousei' actually like the label, and I could be wrong about that, but I mean why would they? The label serves no useful purpose as far as I can see. We don't have women's literature or women's music for example, why do we need women's anime? As a label I mean, I don't mean the content.
 
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We don't have women's literature
We kinda do though. I mean there's a heck of a lot of romantic/historical fiction which is largely consumed by (mainly older) women produced and sold here in the UK. Catherine Cookson (again, hugely popular) and the like. Amazon apparently calls that genre "Family Sagas" but it's not really all that far removed from what the Japanese would consider Josei.

I do undersand your point about the labels, but it seems to me somewhat culturally relative - If it's normal for Japanese society to categorise things in that way, then it's probably not affecting people the same way it might if we were to suddenly start classifying things in the same way here.
 
just thought it was strange, the idea of a show that is a mature adult drama being classified as 'women's anime', it's just anime. Also I do wonder if these labels create a self fulfilling prophesy, they probably do. If you call something jousei then more women and less men are going to probably gravitate towards it. I don't have a problem of people writing stuff from their own perspective or writing whatever they want, but I can't imagine many writers of 'jousei' actually like the label, and I could be wrong about that, but I mean why would they? The label serves no useful purpose as far as I can see.
The origins of labels (or pigeonholing) comes from what manga anthologies they're published in. Natsuyuki Rendezvous for example was published in a josei anthology called Feel Young. I really don't think Japanese fandom really pays much attention to these labels as such. For example Shonen Jump is of course primarily aimed at boys, but it's popularity crosses all demographics. The original Gundam series had a massive female following as do Saint Seiya and Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure despite being published in Shonen Jump.

And of course Minky Momo and Sailor Moon had massive male fanbases. The origins of Moe come from shoujo manga of the 1970's, and of course even in moe type shows, you have a large crossover of fans. Same with the artists, as previously mentioned Hiromu Arakawa and Rumiko Takahashi, you have Clamp, Chica Umino and illustrators like Noizi Ito who primarily does works for light novels and eroge games aimed at young men.

Pretty much all of the events I have attended in Japan have almost a 50/50 split in men and women. Possibly the only one which doesn't is Comiket, which has near 70% female participation rate in terms of people selling their works and even more skewed towards women in terms of cosplay participation (buyers are about 50/50 split though). The only time I saw a real split in sexes was at Otome Road in Ikebukuro. Hardly saw any men there at all.
 
We kinda do though. I mean there's a heck of a lot of romantic/historical fiction which is largely consumed by (mainly older) women produced and sold here in the UK. Catherine Cookson (again, hugely popular) and the like. Amazon apparently calls that genre "Family Sagas" but it's not really all that far removed from what the Japanese would consider Josei.

I do undersand your point about the labels, but it seems to me somewhat culturally relative - If it's normal for Japanese society to categorise things in that way, then it's probably not affecting people the same way it might if we were to suddenly start classifying things in the same way here.
I may be strawmanning here but I'd like to add "erotic" novels, mainly aimed at women. Im a bit of an idiot when it comes to seeing the tropes in anything other than shoenen or seinen, but all the categories Japan has for it's media can be based around those tropes. The formula that creates shows like naruto and dragonball has obvious tropes, things like berserk are more graphic and tackle more adult themes and so on. The West does have similar demographics, as it's been said that's how they find their audience. Categories are more for marketing than to describe who actually does watch it
 
I do undersand your point about the labels, but it seems to me somewhat culturally relative - If it's normal for Japanese society to categorise things in that way, then it's probably not affecting people the same way it might if we were to suddenly start classifying things in the same way here.

You might be right of course, but I can't help but think it's wishful thinking to hope that a thorough system of gender specific labels has no affect on a people. I feel that on some level it surely must do. I don't think the fact that this kind labelling has been around for ages makes it any less pernicious. Nor do I think it's beyond hope of changing.

The origins of labels (or pigeonholing) comes from what manga anthologies they're published in. Natsuyuki Rendezvous for example was published in a josei anthology called Feel Young. I really don't think Japanese fandom really pays much attention to these labels as such. For example Shonen Jump is of course primarily aimed at boys, but it's popularity crosses all demographics. The original Gundam series had a massive female following as do Saint Seiya and Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure despite being published in Shonen Jump.

And of course Minky Momo and Sailor Moon had massive male fanbases. The origins of Moe come from shoujo manga of the 1970's, and of course even in moe type shows, you have a large crossover of fans. .

That system of having 'josei' or 'shonen' anthologies is exactly what I'm criticising. There is a lot of crossover for sure, and there are exceptions, and plenty of people who bravely refuse the staus quo. All of which demonstrate why this system is archaic and unnecessary. But even if it's largely subconscious I can't imagine this system of labelling has simply no impact on people

It doesn't seem like a stretch to imagine the possibility of some boy getting bullied for reading Shoujo during lunchtime, and what would his defence be against the bullies, the title of the magazine is telling him he shouldn't be reading it. And why do the current batch of Gundam shows enjoy less popularity with women than the original (if they do)?

Interesting to hear your experiences of conventions in Japan, thanks for sharing. Anyone else have any experiences in Japanese anime conventions? Is it unity or is there a feeling of a sexual divide?
 
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Animation has always fascinated me ever since I was young, the idea of creating something with your bare hands and having it come to life is beautiful and of course because everything is crafted from the ground up it allows for a level of creative freedom that is unparalleled. CGI and other such techniques has allowed creatives to inject some of that magic into live action films but there's still something tactile and tangible about hand drawn animation, a human touch that's intrinsic to the craft, or at least that's how I feel. In that sense I've always had an appreciation for older traditional animation, but that's not to say I'm not interested in newer animation. It helps of course that Japan in the late 80's was going through an economic bubble and so with that led to insane production values across the board, you'd be hard pressed seeing a modern Angel's Egg or Robot Carnival, and of course many of whom we consider the greats of the industry were getting to grips with the tools that they had been given. I think what fascinates me is how young the anime industry is as it means that I'm easily able to see the trajectory of my favourite luminaries and how they grew over their careers, being able to see Daicon Film evolve into Gainax and everything those talented people worked on thereafter is really cool. Looking at the type of media I consume, I tend to gravitate a lot towards the 80's and so I guess the aesthetics also appeals to me, from music to fashion, which explains why I love series like City Hunter.

I guess I have a fascination with the industry itself and so I could see some of this being my inner historian being attracted to just the idea of archiving, documenting, learning, understanding and discovering the roots of this industry I hold dear, I find that fun in and of itself. Having said that I don't just watch anime to document or learn, I want to be entertained too! I always thought that I had an affinity for mecha but I don't think that holds true, I certainly can't think of a genre that I wouldn't give a shot either, I do consider myself to be like a brick wall however. I usually make my mind up in regards to what I want to watch and it's pretty hard, almost impossible to recommend me stuff. I think it's safe to say that slice of life is my favourite, maybe because I'm able to inject myself into those worlds more easily, able to see myself as the main character. You do bring up a good question vashdaman regarding anime that mimics the real world. I said earlier that animation affords creativity, so using all those tools to depict reality might seem like a waste, but I find something equally beautiful in that, the notion that somebody painstakingly hand animating a mundane scene, a girl brushing her hair, a cat stretching, there's something pure about that.

I think, what drives me is my passion for animation itself and what it stands for, seeing a beautiful piece of animation just makes me happy and leaves me in awe, I have a similar passion for live action but I guess the escapism is what I cling on to, animation takes me to another world, figuratively and literally. There's a lot I hate about anime, the industry can be toxic, as can the fanbase, but when I watch Anne of Green Gables, everything in the world is okay, you know?
 
It doesn't seem like a stretch to imagine the possibility of some boy getting bullied for reading Shoujo during lunchtime,
It is though, since when has that ever happened? Geeks have been bullied in every culture, but the only ones who bully those who are into more specific genres and characters are geeks who hate those genres and safely hide away in their own fandoms. Maybe if this hypothetical boy was wearing a dress it'd be more understandable as to why he's being bullied, people still get bullied for being sissies don't they? As I've said, it's mostly marketing and not truly reflective of the audience
 
I got bullied reading Higurashi at lunch time when I was young. People bully people for stupid ****
Yes but most kids in achool are morons, education has become a say care centre for all ages. You were a nerd, not a higurashi fan. They probably had no idea what it really was did they? (Sadly, I have to look it up, but lots of bullies don't get what something is before they bully you for it)
Edit: just remembered what it is. Higurashi is a brilliant peice of work, you were defiantly bullied for nerd cred and not for something specific... I believe. I wasn't there so how would I really knkw
 
It doesn't seem like a stretch to imagine the possibility of some boy getting bullied for reading Shoujo during lunchtime, and what would his defence be against the bullies, the title of the magazine is telling him he shouldn't be reading it. And why do the current batch of Gundam shows enjoy less popularity with women than the original (if they do)?

Interesting to hear your experiences of conventions in Japan, thanks for sharing. Anyone else have any experiences in Japanese anime conventions? Is it unity or is there a feeling of a sexual divide?

Firstly, I totally agree that grouping by target audience is a bit dumb. It's also becoming less and less relevant; any western fan would assume something like Black Butler is aimed at women, yet it's ostensibly shounen (actually, most of the content in the magazine from which it originates falls into this category). There have been essays upon essays written about how it's the end of days now that Shounen Jump is popular with female readers and how female fans are 'taking over' male nerdspace at Comiket, and it's all silly nonsense because female fans have been at doujinshi events as customers and sellers ever since doujinshi events were first conceived.

I see it as a guide when choosing something. If I want to read a romance title, I might opt for a josei manga if I want a thought-provoking approach to the subject matter (this is usually what I do, in fact, want) or a shounen romance if I want something that will never resolve but include a lot of panty shots (thanks, Katsura Masakazu). If I want it to have sex in it I'll shift my eyes to the seinen/josei titles; if I want it to have harem or comedy elements then a shounen/shoujo title might be better. I don't care if I'm reading the 'wrong' titles for my real gender/age configuration at all and I'd laugh if anyone judged me for it. Most western fans can't even work out what the intended audience was in the first place; I've had people swear blind that Ah My Goddess is aimed at young girls (haha, no) 'because it's romantic, and girls like romance'. That's a far dumber simplification of the human experience than simply acknowledging that a title was originally pitched to girls then became popular with a wider audience because it was good.

Furthermore, I think the danger of being mocked for reading the wrong titles is skewed. Nobody sane is going to make fun of a girl who reads shounen manga. It's normal. If you're a girl in the UK and you're seen reading manga, and teased for it, it's simply because you're reading comics. Not because the comics were originally pitched at guys. The idea that a guy might be bullied by his mates for liking shoujo manga, then, exposes a mess of problems with how men view themselves and other men in our society, and also how female-orientated media is viewed as 'lesser' or 'embarrassing' in general. There is a slight difference in culture, too; think of a male Pretty Cure fan in Japan and most people will visualise a typical otaku with no social skills, waving a glowstick and collecting cute things. Whereas a female One Piece fan is... an ordinary person, most likely. Content aimed at men is 'normal', so female fans aren't penalised so heavily for liking it unless they go into pretty extreme territory and push people out of their comfort zone. You can see this throughout the media; if a geeky guy comes up to a girl in the UK and asks for her favourite movie, he'll openly laugh in her face if she says Twilight (and probably offer tips on better movies) but ask for her phone number if she names The Avengers. Even though both films are objectively terrible - I'm allowed to say this as I enjoyed both - it's more ok to like the male-orientated one than the other. Even if the person in question isn't male in the first place. I've had this over and over again in social interactions over the years. All of my male friends are sensible and read shoujo manga freely if they like the look of it, and their lives are much better for it.

Even romance manga has a spin on this bias; girls historically (and indeed currently) enjoy girl x girl titles as well as BL. Classic 'yuri' manga was originally made for, and by, women. Male fans of BL are presumed to be oddballs or, in the west, presumed to be gay. And while they certainly might be, I don't see why the assumption that straight men can't read BL is baked in so heavily when the opposite scenario doesn't exist. I don't expect anyone to raise an eyebrow when I say I'm reading a girl x girl title; why would they? Don't they have anything better to do? But a male BL fan can often feel shamed by their preferences.

I'll answer the other points too with my own experiences.

Honestly, most Gundam titles are probably even more popular with women than men nowadays. 00, Seed, Wing and Iron-Blooded Orphans were all hugely loved by the female fanbase; I think people still produce doujinshi for Wing and Seed now and they're ancient by today's standards. The industry has tried to adapt to the obvious demand by pitching more products directly to the female audience, which is great; one thing Japanese companies do well is merchandise the heck out of popular titles, and you can often tell how a series is doing by watching the kind of items that get released for it. Sometimes there will be titles which start off with merchandise clearly pitched at male fans, then over time they'll give up and start releasing items focusing on the female audience instead because for whatever reason the title made more of a splash with a different crowd and they acknowledge that. I like the fluidity, and generally everyone wins because with Gundam in particular there are Gunpla models for one crowd and character CDs for the other. It's big enough to support everyone. There's sometimes pushback where people complain that recent Gundam titles are too girly with things like emotions and non-ugly characters detracting from the action, but Gundam has always been a bit of a hot mess in that respect. And ultimately, it's the interesting characters, muddy politics, pessimistic view of war and interpersonal rivalries which keep the female audience coming back to things like Gundam. They can't get rid of it that easily without tearing the whole heart of the series out.

I've been to a few conventions in Japan with huge gender divide, but it seems to be fairly one-way. You simply do not get many men at festivals for otome games, or historical fantasy, or stage plays, or BL doujinshi markets, or even male seiyuu events. However, the tiny clumps of males (often - but by no means exclusively - attending with girlfriends rather than alone) tend to integrate well enough and there's no 'us and them' feeling; everyone is there to have fun. Events for general anime/manga/game content/genres tend to have both genders in abundant attendance, especially doujinshi events and concerts. Even idol concerts tend to have a fair few impassioned female fans shouting along with the guys (though I avoid these myself, so I'm only able to testify about idol events which happened as part of larger music festivals).

There is curiosity if you go too far out of your lane though. If you're female and go into a male-orientated shop (the easy go-to example would be adult doujinshi shops aimed at men, but there are plenty of game/figure shops in Akiba with a male bent) there are a lot of stares and sometimes strange interactions. I could tell many stories. Similarly, if you're a manly-looking guy at a BL fair and you start leafing through some saucy Raphael x Donatello TMNT sample books, you'll likely be the victim of some very overexcited artists wanting to ask questions which they wouldn't to an ordinary-looking female fan (this is a real anecdote). But even then, the hostility and gatekeeping which exists in western geek spaces is relatively rare; people will feel it sometimes, I'm sure, but you won't get people coming up to you and sneering openly the way some people with poor social skills often do at conventions in the UK (again, personal experiences...) if you don't match their image of a fan. It's mostly genuine curiosity.

(Though I do also enjoy the protection of being foreign, which magnifies my natural intimidation factor a thousandfold, I enjoy the similar entertainment of being able to understand the frenzied stage whispers behind my back and tweets about the 'foreigner at the event!!' which appear sometimes in my wake because people tend to forget that non-Japanese people still have ears/eyes. So I think I have a fairly good idea of what people really think about me, haha.)

R
 
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Super interesting post Rui, thanks! I agree with everything you wrote about the whole labelling issue. That's actually why I chose a guy reading Shoujo as my example as I imagine girls reading Shounen is pretty normal at this point. But as you mentioned, that points to how male orientated media has become the status quo and lauded above It's female counter parts. Which I think probably does unfairly give Shoujo and jousei stuff an air of inferiority. It's also why I presume there's no 'dansei' genre, because that's the norm.

The BL thing is interesting too. It seems to me that women in general are more comfortable with the idea of relations with their own sex, while for more men admitting interest or having entertained the thought of romance with another guy seems to be a source of shame and derision. Even for me, I was quite shocked when I first started uni and a straight-ish friend of mine told me frankly that he's always fantasised about giving a dude oral sex. At the time, with no prompting from him, I felt spured by some insecurity to proclaim that I've never once thought about sex with a man, which was of course a bald faced lie.
I think toxic masculinity is to blame for much, and I agree that (conservative) men have largely been the ones enforcing the gender designations.
 
Why do I feel the need to disect some of these posts? Oh well here it goes
I imagine girls reading Shounen is pretty normal at this point.
Don't make me repeat myself about the marketing labels! But yea I do agree. I've watched what's dropped of magical girls site and I reckon if you put at least one or two more seinen tropes in there, you could swap the magic sticks for boyish items instead of girlish ones and making them boys won't change much, but I guess it still makes sense that professor pigtails targets unfortunate young girls. I don't know about the shift in the tastes of girls and women, I've never been to these events and I haven't seen how they've changed, but I imagine they have fatigue from something aimed at their particular demographic as the usual themes and genres have grown tired, and they look for something genuinely interesting
It seems to me that women in general are more comfortable with the idea of relations with their own sex, while for more men admitting interest or having entertained the thought of romance with another guy seems to be a source of shame and derision.
I don't know, romance with another guy seems kind of, gay. Joking aside, I feel like I've raised with pretty masculine values, and I've never had a "gay" experience, maybe a guy has tried to kiss me once or twice but I have never wanted to do anything like kiss a guy (i'ma hugger though!) I really don't think I'm the authority to speak on why people have gay experiences, so I can only say closer homosexuals/bi or everyone wants to experiment while they're still young, but it can turn people off the gay idea and can really be confusing if they go for it but there's really nothing to those feelings

One thing that can really drive me ape though is the "buzzword" concepts like "toxic maaculinity". Toxic to me means toxic waste, snakes venom etc. Masculinity doesn't literally kill you, saying it is toxic feels like a potshot at me and other men for being men, im not going to apologise for being born. if you disagree with some of the values that are thought to make up masculinity take the time to define what's wrong with them, the worst someone can do is disagree with you, and if they flip out, call you names and bring up nonsensical discussions in the middle of that discussion, they didn't want a mature debate in the first place
toxic masculinity
-.- thanks for playing ^.^

And when did this become the general politics thread?
 
Well I'm a fairly straight (even if I have fantasised about what gay sex might be like) male myself, so I'm not taking "pot shots" at you or whatever, I'm talking about what I've experienced personally and seen personally. Can femininity be toxic and harmful too? Sure it can but, again in my own experienced, toxic masculinity is a bigger problem. I mean look at the world around you, boys are murdering other boys because one gave the other a funny look. Do you not think that kind of socialisation is toxic?
If you don't want to discuss the political dimension of anime, that's your decision. But please be clear that I am not insulting straight men.
 
Well I'm a fairly straight (even if I have fantasised about what gay sex might be like) male myself, so I'm not taking "pot shots" at you or whatever, I'm talking about what I've experienced personally and seen personally. Can femininity be toxic and harmful too? Sure it can but, again in my own experienced, toxic masculinity is a bigger problem. I mean look at the world around you, boys are murdering other boys because one gave the other a funny look. Do you not think that kind of socialisation is toxic?
If you don't want to discuss the political dimension of anime, that's your decision. But please be clear that I am not insulting straight men.
Dude, you sound like you want to try a gay experience, theres no shame in trying and liking it, the only shame is if you regret it.
And I've told you it enrages me, and, although I feel no one is out to attack anyone, I still feel like opening up about that has been used against me. That's the negative thing among other negatives that come with the whole package of masculinity; trust issues, those who are often suspicious of others make few friends yes, men are more likely to be killed by men, but where boys are killing each other like you said, they live in garbage cultures where they have to desperately compete to barely eat once a day, that's far more complicated than them just being boys. Toxic femininity is a phrase never used unironically as it is a reactionary joke to the phrase toxic masculinity.

And political dimensions in anime? I thought this was about what you liked, I guess people have been discussing who seems to be into what these days, and how the marketing labels aren't reflecting the audience but I guess I saw someone adding one or two things in there...
Oh and also you haven't told me your experiences and why masculinity should have a phrase making it look like a bad thing, I've already told you why the phrase peeves me off, but you don't really have to
 
Yes that's what I'm pointing out when I use that term, the negative aspects of masculinity. I'm not denying there aren't other serious problems in our society, or that there aren't negative examples of femininity. Nor am I saying all examples of masculinity are bad. I'm saying that toxic forms of masculinity are really awful. I hope now you won't be enraged by that phrase so much next time you see it.

I feel I've lived as a young man at one stage in my life actively striving to be that awful type masculine, and under it's sway, and I'm still daily finding more of it hidden away in my mind and trying to uproot it, it's a lifelong process probably, I've really realised how deep those roots go. So I think it's a fair enough phrase to use really, I really do feel I've been an example of toxic idiotic masculinity, and a victim of it too.

Anyway this is going so far off topic at this point.
 
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Don't make me repeat myself about the marketing labels! But yea I do agree. I've watched what's dropped of magical girls site and I reckon if you put at least one or two more seinen tropes in there, you could swap the magic sticks for boyish items instead of girlish ones and making them boys won't change much, but I guess it still makes sense that professor pigtails targets unfortunate young girls. I don't know about the shift in the tastes of girls and women, I've never been to these events and I haven't seen how they've changed, but I imagine they have fatigue from something aimed at their particular demographic as the usual themes and genres have grown tired, and they look for something genuinely interesting

I'm a little confused about this point so please forgive me if I'm off-target, but Magical Girl Site is directly targeted at guys, like a lot of magical girl titles over the last decade or so. Adding more traditionally masculine content to it wouldn't change this at all, or even increase its popularity with women in any measurable way, I would wager. The magical girl genre is an interesting one in general, especially with this current season's anime in mind! We have male-orientated examples (Magical Girl Site, Cutie Honey) and female-orientated examples (Cute High Earth Defense Club Happy Kiss, Cardcaptor Sakura) and then Magical Girl Ore which definitely comes across as female-orientated to me but it's so intent on lampooning the very topic we're discussing that I think it's probably a separate matter entirely. It's interesting seeing how the subgenres break down too, with the overtly comical magical girl titles gaining more female fans (two are explicitly intended as parody) while the most traditional female-orientated female-written magical girl title of the lot (CCS) actually has more male fans than female, from my personal experience at least. Especially when it comes to older fans.

And when did this become the general politics thread?

I would legitimately be up for debating the spin-off topic in the politics thread if you want to do so. Please note that my use of conservative (lower case 'c' used deliberately, because it's a word in its own right) and gender politics directly related to the topic at hand, and vash was simply summing up with a phrase we mutually understood as adults who have debated the problems of society here on many occasions in the past. Masculinity isn't wrong. Men aren't wrong. Toxic masculinity, as a very specific type of masculinity which shames those who deviate from its unwritten rules, is something that directly ties into the topic of manga fans being too ashamed to admit to liking shoujo titles around their guy friends (and in a broader sense contributes to the unacceptable situation with males who suffer due to the shame of accessing mental health support in our country, though that is definitely outside the scope of this topic).

If you have an opinion on why the genre shaming isn't an issue, or how it doesn't resolve back to 'men should be manly and shoujo manga isn't manly', I'd be glad to hear it! The reason 'toxic femininity' didn't come up in the exchange was because I specifically made the point that I don't feel it exists, in the example of manga genre shaming. Girls who are embarrassed to read manga are not usually embarrassed because it's a title aimed at boys. If they're embarrassed at all, it's because of the whole 'fake geek girls' situation which perpetuates the false dichotomy that women cannot genuinely like geeky stuff; that's a lie which is definitely spread by women as much as it is by men. It's a completely different issue in itself. But the toxicity we were discussing is the same reason girls aren't embarrassed to wear trousers, or watch superhero movies, or do other supposedly-boyish things that our society has arbitrarily decided suit one gender more than the other. And I believe it's a valid point to make because it helps isolate the reason for that shame existing where it does.

I don't know, romance with another guy seems kind of, gay. Joking aside, I feel like I've raised with pretty masculine values, and I've never had a "gay" experience, maybe a guy has tried to kiss me once or twice but I have never wanted to do anything like kiss a guy (i'ma hugger though!) I really don't think I'm the authority to speak on why people have gay experiences, so I can only say closer homosexuals/bi or everyone wants to experiment while they're still young, but it can turn people off the gay idea and can really be confusing if they go for it but there's really nothing to those feelings

Ok, but making this less personal for a moment, why does reading BL manga implicitly require that you're either a gay male or a straight female (I don't get the joke, sorry, I think I'm outside the target audience)? It has nothing to do with your own orientation any more than reading a boy/girl romance story requires you to be straight, or reading a magical girl manga requires you to be a magical girl in real life.

Disliking specific trashy BL series for being trashy makes perfect sense; I'm never going to question anyone who turns their nose up at Super Lovers even though I watched it, just as I wouldn't question anyone who rolls their eyes at the idea of watching Citrus. But a lot of straight guys were able to enjoy watching Gravitation back in the day, and that's hardly Shakespeare. It's as though the fact that BL - or even just female-orientated fan service - is in a show immediately disqualifies an otherwise-interesting title as 'not for me', which is a strange mindset to have when coming from the other direction. Yuri!!! On Ice and Free!! would probably be good examples, even though the latter is a sports/seishun series rather than BL and the former can also be enjoyed as a sports series in its own right. Furthermore, why doesn't this double standard - for that is what it is - apply to yuri manga, and (this is a matter I am genuinely curious about) how many people who don't like BL enjoy girl/girl titles aimed at men, and do they also enjoy lesbian manga aimed at women?

The marketing labels on manga (and to a far lesser extent, anime, since it's usually pitching for a broad audience to recoup the greater costs) are only as much of a problem as we allow them to be. There are definitely some awkward phrases used in Japan which betray a cultural clumsiness when it comes to gender roles - the wasei-English term 'normal coupling' to describe the tiny minority of heterosexual pairings in BL shops always makes me wince in its implications - but if we're prevented from enjoying a great series just because it says 'for girls' or 'for boys' on the spine (or more accurately, 'Flower Comics' or 'Jump Comics' on the spine, because the labelling isn't that prescriptive once the book is in your hand), we're cheating ourselves out of some great titles. And that's on us, as individual fans.

R
 
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Beaten to everything I had to say there by Rui, particularly this:
I would legitimately be up for debating the spin-off topic in the politics thread if you want to do so. Please note that my use of conservative (lower case 'c' used deliberately, because it's a word in its own right) and gender politics directly related to the topic at hand, and vash was simply summing up with a phrase we mutually understood as adults who have debated the problems of society here on many occasions in the past. Masculinity isn't wrong. Men aren't wrong. Toxic masculinity, as a very specific type of masculinity which shames those who deviate from its unwritten rules, is something that directly ties into the topic of manga fans being too ashamed to admit to liking shoujo titles around their guy friends (and in a broader sense contributes to the unacceptable situation with males who suffer due to the shame of accessing mental health support in our country, though that is definitely outside the scope of this topic).
Masculine men don't need to feel threatened by people criticising "toxic masculinity" when it describes a particular, nasty mindset which just happens to have the common factor of the people who think and act that way being male (just as say, ordinary Muslims don't need to feel threatened when people criticise Islamic State) If you're not a misogynist, or the kind of man who picks fights with or ridicules other men over the things they do not being manly enough, then you're not the target of people criticising "toxic masculinity" so I don't really see any reason to get bent out of shape about the term.
 
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