What if Moe and Shounen got banned?

Ramadahl said:
I don't suppose you can give some examples of shows that would fit into the categories you outline here? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
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I can't answer for Rui, but I do share her opinion on this. An example would be Haruhi. It's a series that has moe elements, but makes up for it by mocking those elements and just being generally fantastic.

Moe, though, is by far one of the greatest evils in the anime world today. Shoenen, at least, isn't mind numbingly brainless and creepy; it's just harmless fun. Moe is not harmless fun, it's bad, bad, bad.
 
Ramadahl said:
Rui said:
I can't stand obvious moe stuff in general but don't mind if a show has other redeeming values or the moe is just in the eye of the beholder and not a focus.
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I don't suppose you can give some examples of shows that would fit into the categories you outline here? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
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Hmm, I suppose it could include things like Haruhi (SHnY) - despite Mikuru's entire personality and looks being moe-bait, it's done in a tongue in cheek way and completely avoids annoying me. There's also a huge Yuki fandom following the series but I can completely ignore it and therefore don't feel irritated - she was ok as a character on her own merits, thankfully, and more than just a blushing cookie cutter. In other words; despite the boatload of fanart and character-adoration of the females, I found enough to like in the show to enjoy it regardless. When that letter step is missing I feel cheated!

Then you have things like Galaxy Angel where almost every character is blatantly designed to be cute, ditzy and appealing and sell merchandise. But the show itself is so silly that I can look past it. Again, it pokes fun at itself in little ways too.

The kind of moe I hate is where it's set up so the entire show revolves around it and pretty much nothing else. Most bishoujo game adaptations are guilty of this. If a person watches Lain and happens to find Lain herself moe, that's fine, because there's way more to her than being that way.

A wacky flipside to this could be the shounen jump BL phenomenon. Kakashi from Naruto and Zoro from One Piece are both characters that enjoy enormous popularity within their target audiences of boys for obvious reasons. But both are stratospherically popular in homoerotic doujinshi made for women too. Normally, obvious fangirl-bait pretty boy characters annoy the target audience of these shounen jump shows and make them less cool, in the same way that obviously intentionally moe characters irritate me too. But if that's just a fan side effect rather than the character's raison d'etre, people can live with it better.

For what it's worth I also can't stand "shounen" series which intentionally try to appeal to fangirls for the same reason. Guys obviously designed around the concept "super cool/attractive" rarely are.

Sorry this was a bit rambly, I should tidy it up later when I have time.

R
 
CitizenGeek said:
I can't answer for Rui, but I do share her opinion on this. An example would be Haruhi. It's a series that has moe elements, but makes up for it by mocking those elements and just being generally fantastic.
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Geez stop reading my mind :)

R
 
CitizenGeek said:
Ramadahl said:
I don't suppose you can give some examples of shows that would fit into the categories you outline here? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
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I can't answer for Rui, but I do share her opinion on this. An example would be Haruhi. It's a series that has moe elements, but makes up for it by mocking those elements and just being generally fantastic.
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Then there are anime that have characters that are commonly perceived as moe despite them appearing before the moe explosion. I believe moe didn't exist until the early 2000s.
 
Maxon said:
Lupus Inu said:
I'd say goodbye to 90% of anime and hello filtered awesome 10%.
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Calling 90% of anime shounen or moe is really pushing it.
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A little excessive maybe, but have you seen this summer's anime offerings? Throw fanservice into the mix and you may be close.
As for if it was banned (you know the main idea of the thread) I would be horrified. If they just stopped making it I would be happy. My gripe about Moe is that there is just so much made with little or no effort into making the characters unique and/or memorable much like most harem shows just have the various tropes. Also they rarely have anything resembling a plot.
And this is almost the opposite my problem with shounen while being the similar as well. While they may have huge arcs and plots spanning sever hundred episodes nothing ever gets resolved nor much permanently happen. Reset buttons are pushed more often than on my old NES, the guy's grow lists of girls tailing the longer that my dic... arm, but does he chose one... like smeg he does. If there is a over riding goal of a series they never seems to get any closer, or if they get there the goal posts are picked up and taken back to where they can't be seen by the Hubble telescope.
 
Rui said:
Sorry this was a bit rambly, I should tidy it up later when I have time.
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No worries, thanks for giving me your thoughts on it. After reading your post I figure that I'm pretty much the same way, except that maybe I'd find merit in some series that you wouldn't. Perhaps I'm too easily pleased ^^;
 
Cardcaptor has your typical moe characters and I quite enjoyed...
Haruhi is another one with lots of moe that I like very much, Azumanga Daioh as well... I like most shounen stuff, I agree most of the times it drags a lot, but anyway, I'd miss Flamme of Recca, Hunter X Hunter, etc..
 
Not too sure what the fuss is about, to me anime's anime. As long as it entertains and/or gives insight, then I don't care if it's shounen/shoujo, horror/action/moe etc.

I suppose if it was 90% one genre, then yeah that lacks creativity and monopolizes the market (of which some fans would get bored of).

I would of thought Haruhi was more a "Slice of life" anime with a little adventure/mystery. I see Moe as your young/short girls with huge eyes and the story is usually heart-felt. Lucky Star would qualify for the style anyways, but it's a comedy. That's why I usually go for the small girl approach with Moe. Maybe I'm just looking at the aesthetics rather than the plot...
 
I think the concept of moe has experienced a lot of meaning drift which doesn't help.

Momiji from Fruits Basket, though male, is the type to inspire moe feelings in most readers with a heart as far as I can tell. He's awesome though because it's effectively put across as just a side effect of his personality/looks/situation rather than the reason he's in the series. He's not useless and I don't have any secret shotacon - he's just great and happens to be sort of moe.

When it's a [generally extremely loli] bishoujo acting pathetic, cute and useless (see most fandoms of Key games for exaggerated examples of this), something clicks in my mind and I want to run screaming. It's ok in small doses which I can stay well away from but lately the fashion is to fill each show with loads of deliberately moe archetypes to sell merchandise and reel in fans.

Though actually, this extends to something else in anime - I prefer seeing shows with adult characters and turbulent emotions. So the moe-induced "lolification" of the current shows is a turn off. That and in a lot of them, nothing actually ever happens (Bottle Fairy is an example of this) as the point is to be cute and relaxing; I watch anime to be stimulated, not to look at cute preteens falling over and blushing. Thankfully though, it's just a phase and will sink back into otaku obscurity in a few years. Hopefully paving the way for hotblooded men with big eyebrows to make a comeback as the style of choice :)

Anyway I don't want it banned at all, I just want it to become slightly less overwhelming!

On the 90% thing - the scope of that list completely ignores non-otaku shows (like shows for little kids) and shows which are already running (most of which are massively more popular in the mainstream than anything on that list hopes to become). It's safe out there yet.

R
 
I agree with what was said in the char battle general disscussion thread "if you dont want a char to win then band together and vote someone"
people complain that shounen chars are getting through, excuse me but i put kenpachi from bleach through but as of yet haven't seen him in the char battles, have i complained about it? NO its all abit of fun, everyone who's getting all uptight about it have obviously forgotten that fact.

I think people just need to chill abit, i'll admit that in the recent past me and another member sorta sparred online, but we've settled the differences. there's no reason to get so anoyed over something so trivial, if you dont want achar to win, simply vote for the one you do. if it turns out that a shounen char gets through anyway then why complain? we all have our own votes, the outcome is just something we should all take lightly.

Remember, its all just abit of fun to liven up the forum, not a reason to take 100% seriously.
 
Rui said:
I think the concept of moe has experienced a lot of meaning drift which doesn't help.

Momiji from Fruits Basket, though male, is the type to inspire moe feelings in most readers with a heart as far as I can tell. He's awesome though because it's effectively put across as just a side effect of his personality/looks/situation rather than the reason he's in the series. He's not useless and I don't have any secret shotacon - he's just great and happens to be sort of moe.
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I know what you mean, but I cant see him other than a feminine guy. Not particularly "Moe" but that's where our perspective differs. He is a funny guy though.

Rui said:
When it's a [generally extremely loli] bishoujo acting pathetic, cute and useless (see most fandoms of Key games for exaggerated examples of this), something clicks in my mind and I want to run screaming. It's ok in small doses which I can stay well away from but lately the fashion is to fill each show with loads of deliberately moe archetypes to sell merchandise and reel in fans.

Though actually, this extends to something else in anime - I prefer seeing shows with adult characters and turbulent emotions. So the moe-induced "lolification" of the current shows is a turn off. That and in a lot of them, nothing actually ever happens (Bottle Fairy is an example of this) as the point is to be cute and relaxing; I watch anime to be stimulated, not to look at cute preteens falling over and blushing. Thankfully though, it's just a phase and will sink back into otaku obscurity in a few years. Hopefully paving the way for hotblooded men with big eyebrows to make a comeback as the style of choice :)
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Oh heck! :p You're probably thinking like most adults in thinking about the pedophilia worries of anime.

Seriously though, I can watch a story with girls in because I'm looking for the story and character building. Sure, there may be a little excessive trips and cuteness around, but what's wrong with a story with some naive elements?
But I feel this is more of a 'fashion' thing and stereotyping. I cringe and become annoyed at the more obnoxious and cliche things in life.

Mind you, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people did refer to AIR and such as lolicon... Didn't AIR derive from a H-game? Maybe that's the source of this loli-phobia.
 
Chaz said:
Oh heck! :p You're probably thinking like most adults in thinking about the pedophilia worries of anime.

Seriously though, I can watch a story with girls in because I'm looking for the story and character building. Sure, there may be a little excessive trips and cuteness around, but what's wrong with a story with some naive elements?
But I feel this is more of a 'fashion' thing and stereotyping. I cringe and become annoyed at the more obnoxious and cliche things in life.

Mind you, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people did refer to AIR and such as lolicon... Didn't AIR derive from a H-game? Maybe that's the source of this loli-phobia.
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I don't really mind anime/manga lolicon (so long as it doesn't move into real life stuff) but find it dreadfully boring myself. Similarly, that's more or less my stance for moe-orientated stuff. I'd try to knock myself out before watching something like Sugar/Bottle Fairy, or even shows with older casts but similar sort of "cute, pointless, relaxing" scenarios like Kokoro Library or Aria. I understand why they exist - and almost all my male friends love them - but something about them just aggravates me. Things my friends and you enjoy as cute and naiive, I just see as the character being irritating.

In much the same way I think quite a few people who like that kind of show would cry with boredom watching some of the things I do like! My fiancé often laughs at how nothing is ever clearly presented in my favourite types of show and they give him a headache. He's a smart guy; it's just a storytelling preference.

And yeah, most of the bishoujo game spinoffs were originally H, so that knowledge does colour my opinions a little. Rumbling Hearts is one of the few I could stomach in anime form but even then I was jumpy, expecting random side characters to suddenly start inappropriately - plot wise - having sex with the main characters every few seconds (I've played a little of the game at a friend's). Once you've seen them all going at it it's hard to look at them the same way again even if they're reinvented as innocent virgins in a relationship story for the anime version.

R
 
Chaz said:
Mind you, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people did refer to AIR and such as lolicon... Didn't AIR derive from a H-game? Maybe that's the source of this loli-phobia.
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Yes, Air was an H-game, as was Kanon. Clannad wasn't, which seems rather... odd... as it has the most mature character designs. I do find the concept of the characters from those series in an H-game a little creepy though. I try not to think about it.
 
never thought I woudl create a thread the would generate such a nice discussion =) glad I did. Anyway, lollicon for the sake of it like Princess Ai puts me off. Moe only for the sake of it puts me off as well.

As Chaz noticed on a previou post, things like Lucky Star, even though it has a huge moe level, stands because of the comedy. It can't survive on moe alone. Moe characters being irritating sometimes, well it's quite expected for me, as they are meant to look good and only that.

It does seems that moe attracts more hatred then shonen though... most of the latest posts just barely mention shounen with the exception of Tachi's post...
 
chaos said:
It does seems that moe attracts more hatred then shonen though... most of the latest posts just barely mention shounen with the exception of Tachi's post...
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You're thinking in the past: Quit thinking in the past... ;)
Probably because it's your typical hero story. You cant get anywhere without trying your hardest: which usually conforms to some sort of physical exercise.
There's desired by any kind of basic fan, from one-off buyers to otaku. Like flavours of ice-cream: almost everyone loves vanella, even if we also have mint, raspberry, strawberry, etc.

That's probably why it's not so hate-worthy.
 
what you need to understand though is what we think of as Moe is perfectly legal in Japan

And i don't see how people can moan about it being banned because it's "wrong" and yet then shoot off at Muslims for complaining about a dog in an advert.

Don't get me wrong, i can see why people would think of Moe being a source for Paedophiles and such, any kind of TV can be.

Disney films feature young children in love and such, why aren't they being ripped into?
 
Ryo I thought we were talking about Moé, not lolicon. Unless they're the same thing though I don't think so. :? It seems that what moé actually means is a personal definition since everyone seems to have their own ideas of it.
 
The reason i talked about shounen is because i don't really know what Moe is, (expecting critisizm to a degree :( )

So im excused of ryo's comment haha :D
 
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