TYPE-MOON Thread - Tsukihime, Fate, The Garden of Sinners, Witch on the Holy Night - Discussion and Guide

Geriatric hedgehog said:
That's more news to me but yeah happy to ignore that one too. More plot holes & paradoxes with this Nasu parallel universe business than a 90s time travel movie heh. I remember in Apocrypha wondering why Waver was El-Melloi with the Iskander's cape remnant and what the Zouken Matou cameo during the fourth grail war were meant to be about when that war was never meant to have happened in that universe as was implied. Unless it was meant to have happened in another form but not mentioned in the anime...
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Yeah that's an anime exclusive plot hole and you can actually blame UFOtable for that one, as they kind of forgot to mention that Zouken fought in the first three grail wars when they adapted Heaven's Feel. He skipped the fourth though as his scheme was still in motion (he intended to skip the fifth as well except Shirou stuck his foot in it during Heaven's Feel). El-melloi's origin is similar in the Apocrypha universe as Waver fought in a lesser grail war having summoned Rider.
 
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Vincentdante said:
Yeah that's an anime exclusive plot hole and you can actually blame UFOtable for that one, as they kind of forgot to mention that Zouken fought in the first three grail wars when they adapted Heaven's Feel. He skipped the fourth though as his scheme was still in motion (he intended to skip the fifth as well except Shirou stuck his foot in it during Heaven's Feel). El-melloi's origin is similar in the Apocrypha universe as Waver fought in a lesser grail war having summoned Rider.
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Ah I see, that makes sense for what it's worth. Both Eva and Fate have taught me to just go with the flow and enjoy the moments rather than let the lore complexities/deficiencies and paradoxes spoil the fun!
 
Geriatric hedgehog said:
Ah I see, that makes sense for what it's worth. Both Eva and Fate have taught me to just go with the flow and enjoy the moments rather than let the lore complexities/deficiencies and paradoxes spoil the fun!
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The written works don't actually have as many plot holes as the anime versions as they are better at explaining stuff (due to their nature as written works). But I would be lying if I said there weren't any. Like the one in Fate/Zero which shifted it into paralel world status. If you want to know in Fate/Stay Night Gilgamesh explains he never used Ea against any oponent in the 4th grail war however in Fate/Zero he used it against Rider.

So basically the version of the 4th grail war that would have officially happened would have been EXACTLY the same except Gil would have chosen another weapon at that point lol. Despite Fate/Stay Night also making a point to explain to the reader that Gilgamesh had been driven completely insane by that point, so they already had a convenient excuse to explain that away anyway soooo...

Nasu is a great storyteller but somethings he say's in interviews etc are best ingnored imo lol.
 
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Vincentdante said:
Despite Fate/Stay Night also making a point to explain to the reader that Gilgamesh had been driven completely insane by that point
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That's exactly the same lazy dementia fix that came to my mind to use for such an instance!
Vincentdante said:
Nasu is a great storyteller but somethings he say's in interviews etc are best ingnored imo lol.
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Definitely, his stories and concepts are always fascinating and I've been pleasantly entrenched in the fate universe off the back of Heaven's Feel. I'm reminded that the next big franchise to rewatch and read for me will be Monogatari now that I've sourced all the light novels as well.
 
Vincentdante said:
Yep, it was already established that Gilgamesh went insane in between Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night because of Angra Manyu so I dunno why they didn't use it but whatever.
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Oh yeah, that would fit nicely actually so they very easily could've. Oh well, their IP to do with as they please and I can't complain as long as I get my fate fix heh.
 
Geriatric hedgehog said:
I've been slowly watching Fate Extra Lost Encore recently and all this talk of Fate Extra/CCC is making me want to look into the story for the latter. Also makes me wonder how bad this character can be to wreck the prospects for the whole game heheh, must be integral to the story then.
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You're playing FGO right? You'll see a bit of what we mean in the Seraph event happening right now.
Alternatively you can look up the character on the wiki. Just... be aware that she's... not the most safe for work character lore wise.

Vincentdante said:
There are a lot of paralel universes lol. Officially Fate/Zero is on a different worldline to fate/stay night (though I choose to ignore that on the grounds that the explanation as to why is incredibly pedantic and dumb imo).
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Huh, that I did not know. Guess it is because any divergences at miniscule, since the fundamentals of that show link directly into Fate Stay/Night.
 
This post is just a bit of lore musing. But really, no one talks about just how horrifying Emiya alter's noble phantasm Unlimited Lost Works actually is.

Shirou's Unlimited Blade Works reality marble came about through his view of the world. Wanting to be a hero to an obsessive level thanks to Kiritsugu's influence on him, viewing the world singularly as everyone is more important than himself. He will save everyone at the cost of himself. Shirou's origin is "sword" and he has mastered projection magic, and with his origin of "sword" he can understand the porperties of any blade he see's, the biggest hurdle of any projection mage. he became one of the greatest blacksmiths. Thus the reality marble Unlimited Blade Works within him was created, an unlimited source of weapons the servent Emiya can summon (which can no longer be used in Heaven's Feel as he has a different reality).

Knowing Shirou's path in Fate/Stay Night it isn't too far to think he followed Kiritsugu's path in one timeline, and became an alter of himself, the cynical Archer taken to it's extreme. Inheriting the weapon that Kiritsugu used in Fate/Zero to use one's origin as a magical bullet. Kiritsugu's origin "Severing" had the effect of shredding the enemies magical circuits. It's how he became known as the Mage hunter in Fate/Zero.

Shirou's origin is "Sword" so what would happen if you shot an entire reality marble condensed into a shell at someone? Well you would trigger Unlimited Blade Works from within the enemy. An endless supply of swords piercing the opponent from the inside out.

tl;dr: Yikes.
 
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Takei Daloui said:
You're playing FGO right? You'll see a bit of what we mean in the Seraph event happening right now.
Alternatively you can look up the character on the wiki. Just... be aware that she's... not the most safe for work character lore wise.
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Heh yeah I worked out she would be some sort of nsfw nutter. Not cleared the final singularity yet so sadly can't join in the event now (nor get another free welfare servant!), which is a further shame having just experienced the very interesting storyline of the not very good Extra Lost Encore.
Vincentdante said:
which can no longer be used in Heaven's Feel as he has a different reality
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Very interesting point which would explain the absence of the reality marble in HF, which I hadn't really considered by having assumed that he would never have become the Emiya heroic spirit at all in that universe, and therefore that Emiya in HF was not from the future in his timeline but rather from a future timeline of a different universe. If he still becomes Emiya, I wouldn't expect him to still have had a vendetta which he eventually dropped at the "selfish" choices Shirou made in HF.

Hiiiinteresting points on Unlimited Lost Works, it reminds me of some character exploding from within in something live-actiony (x-men, or maybe marvel, not the Watchmen I don't think...). Looking forward to experiencing the Emiya Alter storyline in Lostbelts now if there is one.
 
Geriatric hedgehog said:
Very interesting point which would explain the absence of the reality marble in HF, which I hadn't really considered by having assumed that he would never have become the Emiya heroic spirit at all in that universe, and therefore that Emiya in HF was not from the future in his timeline but rather from a future timeline of a different universe. If he still becomes Emiya, I wouldn't expect him to still have had a vendetta which he eventually dropped at the "selfish" choices Shirou made in HF.
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So to answer the first question, in Heaven's Feel Shirou abandoned his principals to save Sakura and reluctantly accepted that collataral damage would happen due to his choice, at that instant he had a whole new perspective of the world and Unlimited Blade Works broke so he relied on Archers arm to to create weapons. As a bonus lore dump, one thing the movie doesn't really give to the viewer was that his fight with the corrupted Berserker was both a fight with the most powerful servant and an internal fight with himself. He unsupressed the arm and recreated Berserkers Sword, with his chant "trace on," that alone wasn't enough, there was no way Unlimited Blade Works could give a single sword the magical energy to kill Heracles. So his next chant "trigger off" was obliterating all of the magical ciruits in his head to empower the sword.

For the second question in the spoiler tag The throne of heroes can summon it's counter guardians from different timelines. The servant Emiya in all three routes is actually the same Shirou we followed along with in the Saber route. UBW was Shirou coming to terms with that himself, and Heaven's Feel is probably the closest to a happy ending for Shirou depending on how you see it. He get's a cool new doll body from Touko of Garden of Sinners fame in that route as well.
 
Vincentdante said:
So to answer the first question, in Heaven's Feel Shirou abandoned his principals to save Sakura and reluctantly accepted that collataral damage would happen due to his choice, at that instant he had a whole new perspective of the world and Unlimited Blade Works broke so he relied on Archers arm to to create weapons. As a bonus lore dump, one thing the movie doesn't really give to the viewer was that his fight with the corrupted Berserker was both a fight with the most powerful servant and an internal fight with himself. He unsupressed the arm and recreated Berserkers Sword, with his chant "trace on," that alone wasn't enough, there was no way Unlimited Blade Works could give a single sword the magical energy to kill Heracles. So his next chant "trigger off" was obliterating all of the magical ciruits in his head to empower the sword.

For the second question in the spoiler tag The throne of heroes can summon it's counter guardians from different timelines. The servant Emiya in all three routes is actually the same Shirou we followed along with in the Saber route. UBW was Shirou coming to terms with that himself, and Heaven's Feel is probably the closest to a happy ending for Shirou depending on how you see it. He get's a cool new doll body from Touko of Garden of Sinners fame in that route as well.
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Ah good stuff, thanks as always for filling in the blanks with your extensive lore knowledge! Interesting to be reminded about which timeline he is from and that makes more sense than my previous assumption of him being from a ubw timeline, as really, again he would still go down that route but should be happier for it thanks to Rin.
 
Geriatric hedgehog said:
Ah good stuff, thanks as always for filling in the blanks with your extensive lore knowledge! Interesting to be reminded about which timeline he is from and that makes more sense than my previous assumption of him being from a ubw timeline, as really, again he would still go down that route but should be happier for it thanks to Rin.
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No worries, it's fun to talk about it :)
 
It's worth correcting something here slightly about Archer.
Archer isn't from the Saber route, he's from a similar Saber route. One where things went very similar but he didn't pursue Saber afterwards, to aim for Avalon. He went on, following his dream. It's not a large difference but it does mean that Shirou from Stay/Night won't become Archer because it would mean stopping trying to reach Saber again.
 
Takei Daloui said:
It's worth correcting something here slightly about Archer.
Archer isn't from the Saber route, he's from a similar Saber route. One where things went very similar but he didn't pursue Saber afterwards, to aim for Avalon. He went on, following his dream. It's not a large difference but it does mean that Shirou from Stay/Night won't become Archer because it would mean stopping trying to reach Saber again.
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Yeah officially this is the canon, I sort of treat the differences as a "Fate/Zero on the timeline" level of negligle though but I should have elaborated.
 
Another Lore musing post.

Though this is a spoiler for Heaven's Feel 3 so as such I will hide it.

The anime movie doesn't really do the Berserker vs Shirou fight as much justice as it deserves.

A bit of background.

In the legend of Heracles, Hera had used her influence to force Heracles into murdering his family and his children. In his search for redemption he took on 12 labours and that is the legends that we know. In the Fate universe this is why he has such a fondness for Illya, He wants to protect children at all cost (let's ignore that Illya is an 18 year old homonculous), even as a berserker he surpases his own legend and retains that duty.

When Sakura absorbes Heracles and set's the black spirit loose on the escaping Shirou and Illya. Even then he does so to protect her. His eyes, nose, ears all removed by Sakura so he remains unaware. He has no senses, from his point of view he is still in that desperate fight with Saber to protect Illya.

From Shirou's point of view, he has abandoned the pursuit of justice he held so dear. He knows that Berserker will kill them both unless he can do something, Illya tells him to run and let her return to Berserker. But Shirou has sacrificed many lives to get this far and abandoned his ideals already so he knows he will never escape his crimes anyway.

He removes the wrapping that is protecting him from Archers arm, the flood of power surges into him with the force of a hurricane, there he see's it, a figure in red with his back turned. The figure knows there is no hope for Shirou and walks forward. Though as if to believe in Shirou's new ideals he asks "Can you keep up with me" in this hurricane like force. Shirou filled with determination replies "It's not me keeping up with you, CAN YOU KEEP UP WITH ME"

Shirou fights, he see's every weapon that Archer has ever forged, he needs a weapon that can kill the legendary Heracles, so he traces the stone sword that the berserker uses, retracing the 12 labours to build the foundation. Unlimited Blade Works can't be used as their ideals are too different. So to fill the sword with enough energy, chanting nine lives trigger off smashes all of his magic circuites to energise the sword. Shirou doesn't expect to survive so what does it matter if he breaks them now.

Then the two fight. Shirou holds his own but it's just a matter of time before he will falter. In an instant Heracles smashes down with all his might and to qoute the game "with the force that even the shockwave would shatter his head" but the attack doesn't come. Shirou looks up and see's the giant motionless, tears in his eyes crying. Heracles has realised what was happening and Shirou takes the opportunity to strike him. Heracles thanks Shirou for stopping him from repeating his legend and entrusts Illya to him.
 
Vincentdante said:
Another Lore musing post.

Though this is a spoiler for Heaven's Feel 3 so as such I will hide it.

The anime movie doesn't really do the Berserker vs Shirou fight as much justice as it deserves.

A bit of background.

In the legend of Heracles, Hera had used her influence to force Heracles into murdering his family and his children. In his search for redemption he took on 12 labours and that is the legends that we know. In the Fate universe this is why he has such a fondness for Illya, He wants to protect children at all cost (let's ignore that Illya is an 18 year old homonculous), even as a berserker he surpases his own legend and retains that duty.

When Sakura absorbes Heracles and set's the black spirit loose on the escaping Shirou and Illya. Even then he does so to protect her. His eyes, nose, ears all removed by Sakura so he remains unaware. He has no senses, from his point of view he is still in that desperate fight with Saber to protect Illya.

From Shirou's point of view, he has abandoned the pursuit of justice he held so dear. He knows that Berserker will kill them both unless he can do something, Illya tells him to run and let her return to Berserker. But Shirou has sacrificed many lives to get this far and abandoned his ideals already so he knows he will never escape his crimes anyway.

He removes the wrapping that is protecting him from Archers arm, the flood of power surges into him with the force of a hurricane, there he see's it, a figure in red with his back turned. The figure knows there is no hope for Shirou and walks forward. Though as if to believe in Shirou's new ideals he asks "Can you keep up with me" in this hurricane like force. Shirou filled with determination replies "It's not me keeping up with you, CAN YOU KEEP UP WITH ME"

Shirou fights, he see's every weapon that Archer has ever forged, he needs a weapon that can kill the legendary Heracles, so he traces the stone sword that the berserker uses, retracing the 12 labours to build the foundation. Unlimited Blade Works can't be used as their ideals are too different. So to fill the sword with enough energy, chanting nine lives trigger off smashes all of his magic circuites to energise the sword. Shirou doesn't expect to survive so what does it matter if he breaks them now.

Then the two fight. Shirou holds his own but it's just a matter of time before he will falter. In an instant Heracles smashes down with all his might and to qoute the game "with the force that even the shockwave would shatter his head" but the attack doesn't come. Shirou looks up and see's the giant motionless, tears in his eyes crying. Heracles has realised what was happening and Shirou takes the opportunity to strike him. Heracles thanks Shirou for stopping him from repeating his legend and entrusts Illya to him.
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I did feel basakaar missed out in HF3 due to time limitations. Thanks for that nice bit of background after your previous mention of this scene. It worked brilliantly regardless thanks to the music, direction and animation ufotable, but it certainly felt that there was a lot more behind it left to the imagination. However, would never have guessed on that hesitation and that really fits with the Berserker we know of stay night, the UBW anime in particular for me, so very good to know, thanks again!
 
Geriatric hedgehog said:
I did feel basakaar missed out in HF3 due to time limitations. Thanks for that nice bit of background after your previous mention of this scene. It worked brilliantly regardless thanks to the music, direction and animation ufotable, but it certainly felt that there was a lot more behind it left to the imagination. However, would never have guessed on that hesitation and that really fits with the Berserker we know of stay night, the UBW anime in particular for me, so very good to know, thanks again!
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It's hard to argue with Dr Gil when it's time for eye surgery :p

In the VN, Gilgamesh did that out of mercy. He let Illya live blinded in a fantasy so as to not witness berserkers death. Gilgamesh actually lamented that entire fight as he saw Heracles was holding back right to his own death. Illya's death was very quick and merciful in the UBW route.
 
Vincentdante said:
It's hard to argue with Dr Gil when it's time for eye surgery :p

In the VN, Gilgamesh did that out of mercy. He let Illya live blinded in a fantasy so as to not witness berserkers death. Gilgamesh actually lamented that entire fight as he saw Heracles was holding back right to his own death. Illya's death was very quick and merciful in the UBW route.
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Aaaah even more missing background around these particular set of characters. Gilgamesh is one of my favourites from Fate, but he just keeps going up in my estimations. I thought he was clinically cold in that scene, whilst acknowledging and questioning the sacrifice being made, but interesting to know that whilst ruthlessly pursuing his goal, he was still intending to be sympathetic/merciful.
 
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