The General Conversation Area

While I don't disagree that such a culture exists, it's not every company, and generalising can be a convenient excuse. My boss started the company I currently work for because he didn't like bad attitudes and corporate politics, and I respect him for it in a genuine, non-forced way. Everyone in my company respects everyone else. And yet we can't fill our two empty roles because it's so bally hard to find other human beings in this country who will work fairly alongside us without fooling around or losing motivation the moment anything tough happens.

The "peace with society" type is a vanishing minority down here next to the "I want it all, but without doing anything to earn it" type. I have no desire to process payslips for the latter group.

R, who doesn't really care about society so long as she can afford JoJo BDs
 
I don't agree with the selfish sentiments of wanting something for nothing (my main criticism is that everybody should have the opportunity of a job with a paycheque they can afford live off, and that shouldn't be dependant on the say-so of anyone else) but people have been taught to expect greater returns for easier work since those manual jobs started disappearing in order to encourage them to climb the ladder into the middle class, a ladder that's now being sawn out from under them AND the already existent middle-class. And their children (after also being encouraged with the promise of prosperity to accrue thousands of pounds of student loan debt) now have to work in 2-quid an hour apprenticeships and then fight each other for jobs that can barely even pay their bills or allow them to live in their own homes at the end of it.

Again, my ultimate question is what happens to the losers? Perhaps change will come from these people society has fraudulently promised everything but delivered nothing to. A case of sowing the wind, so to speak. It would certainly be fitting for those who encouraged the "greed is good" mantra to have it come back at them in the form of the anarchic looting we saw in the riots not long ago.
 
teo is spot on that it's vastly easier to get a job if you already have one, or something that resembles one.

I don't disagree that ayase is perhaps vaguely "right" (perhaps "not wrong" is better) in what he posts, but it's so general as to be of no use as advice to any one specific person. I've moved up through my company in large part by being prepared to say where I think we were going wrong, and not by accepting the kowtowing role. I don't think modern companies are actually interested in promoting people with little initiative as simply yes men - the competition is too fierce in many sectors to allow for such indulgences.
 
Hey, "not wrong" is what I aim for.

And it's great that you're part of an organisation with actual opportunities for advancement who listen to their employees maestro, but I'd say that's a pretty rare position to be in these days. The only people most companies are hiring is disposable lackeys, the higher-ups have largely closed ranks and don't want anyone to take their places. Other than the time I worked for myself (and even then) I've never been in a position where to speak out about anything to my superiors wouldn't mean instant career suicide, indeed I think it probably already has. Companies with ****** cultures, whose ****** references now won't allow me to land a job anywhere not equally ******, as I learned a few days ago when my latest job offer was rescinded (I know exactly who was responsible for that reference as well, and was under the impression when last I spoke to them that they understood my reasons for leaving their employ and were happy with the work I did for them. They're going right to the top of the list).
 
I honestly don't think that only hiring disposable lackeys is a realistic long term proposition for any company outside of baseline retail work "these days", far more than back in "those days". I'm sure that the old-fashioned boys club approach still exists, and maybe not in small number, but it is definitely old-fashioned and will inevitably die out in the face of progress.
 
Yeah, I'm with Ayase, **** working for the man, I'm no brick in the wall damn it! Seriously though, it's probably due to my incredibly stubborn attitude, but I seriously struggle to be under the employ of any company, I'm no doubt worse than even ayase on a particularly anarchic day. Trust me.

But you know what I really dislike. Job interviews. I truly despise going for an interview for a retail position at Iceland, and having some absolute chump lecture me about how effin great their company is. YES, I know you were the first effin retailer to start selling all kinds of frozen ****, I did my research, in order (as much as I a HATE it) to impress a guy like you with my pointless knowledge about your organisation. Not that it will help me mind, as he'll then proceed to ask some ******** question like "what animal would you be", and hire the ******* guy who said he'd be a monkey because he's cheeky like a chimp, or some ****!

*phew* thanks for letting me vent guys. I don't know where that came from ahaha.
 
ayase said:
As a counterpoint to Rui and Teo's reasonable "peace with society" commentary regarding low wages and work experience
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Uhm, it seems I was not able to express what I wanted to say (not surprising, due the different language).
I was not making a "macro" comment (on society) but a "micro" comment (on a singular person looking for a job).
If the problem is finding a job that pays enough money to get a living, then everyone (without health issues) can get one. It's just a matter of putting aside the ego and be willing to do some dirty work. All the restaurants I know have troubles finding dishwashers. Same situation in all the restaurants in Europe, at least this is what all my friends that worked abroad say. This is just an example, there are many more dirty jobs than dishwasher. So when someone says "I can't find a job that allows me to pay my living", then I can only answer "********". If someone wants the money for a living then it's totally simple, he just needs to go looking for a dirty job and get it. Few energies and few time, certain result. If that someone doesn't like to get dirty then it's just an ego problem, not a poverty or social problem. If someone REALLY needs money to live then it doesn't matter what kind of job he got offered, what matters is being able to get the money. But if someone can't find a job of certain level and then complains that he needs money, then this is a total sign of hypocrisy: if he REALLY needs money then he would be available to accept any kind of job that pays decent money. Those jobs are out there, but few people are willing to get dirty and prefer to complain they can't find the job for them (while in most cases they don't get offered one because they are not skilled enough).
Here in Italy we have some worrying data about unemployed people between 20 and 30. They are unemployed not because there aren't jobs, but because they are not willing to accept a "lowly" job, so they prefer to stay at home at the expenses of their parents (and their parents don't kick them out, which was what would have happened up to 20 years ago and what I think is the right thing to do in these cases). There are a lot of nice advantages in the actual society, for example nowadays almost all people (in Western Europe) are able to go to university and study what they want. That's really nice and fine. But after that you need a job. Problems come out when there are too many people that chose some kind of studies. For example we have a huge surplus of people that studied literature and philosophy. The workplaces for those degrees are limited, this means the best get them and then all the others remain unemployed. And start complaining they can't find a job. Is it true they really can't find a job? No, because they are not willing to do dirty stuff. Do we need to blame society because all the cleaning should be done by aliens, so all humans could be free to philosophize? We don't live in a dream society, we live in a real society, where most of the jobs are dirty ones and the good ones are for a minority. If someone does not have the skills to get a "high" job then he had better to realize it, put aside his ego and start considering other solutions for his life. It's obvious that most people would like to be paid bazillion money to be behind a desk, but these places are really few.
About how people are chosen for jobplaces, I repeat what I wrote: employers look for reliable people. This means people that will be willing to put aside their egos and do some unrequested stuff if needed. Unforeseen troubles occur to each and every business, if they are faced in the correct way and then solved, then the business goes on, otherwise bad things start. When you look for a new employer and see he is qualified (on paper) but hasn't worked for a sensible amount of time, then it's red alert. This means that he does not have enough skills to find the job he is looking for and/or he did not want to get dirty in the meantime doing something "humble" if compared to his skills on paper. The consequences in the first case are obvious. The second case says much more things, and these things are bad at the eyes of each employer with a bit of brain. Soon or later a trouble will occur, the only way to get it solved is when people in that business are willing to do dirty stuff, work more hours (even unpaid), do unrequested works and so on. This is how healthy businesses survive and prosper. If a good amount of workers will say stuff like "I signed to work this amount per week and not more", "I did not sign to do this mansion" and so on, then they have their rights to do so (they are not breaking any law), but they are "simply" putting at risk the business where they are working. You can dislike these things as much as you want, but this is how it goes in the current real world. Employers want flexible and reliable people, not because they can abuse of them, but because everyone with a bit of experience about managing a business know that not having those kind of workers will lead to huge troubles, sooner or later that depends by fate, but it will.

A simple example. Let's hypotize I'm an employer and need to hire an engineer. I have 2 choices. Mr X graduated with A 1 year and a half ago, but still hasn't worked, in the interview he says "blabla" but it's clear he is looking for a job that is befitting his high qualifications. Mr Y graduated with B half a year ago, in the past 6 months he worked as street-sweeper, in the interview he says he did that because he needed money even if he graduated as engineer. Without any second thought I'm going to hire mr Y and not mr X. Because I know I'll be able to count on him each time something will need to be solved as soon as possible. While mr X demonstrated being great in theory but not in practice.

About skills and ladders and being able to get nice jobs... I can assure you that if someone is really skilled then he has no troubles finding the job he wants. If it's not at a firm then its at another one, but the job comes. As I can assure that it doesn't matter how you are dressed, if you are too young or whatever. If you prove you have qualities then you will be respected and listened. I've seen some extreme cases, like a 18 years old guy dressed badly (and dirty) going to a bigwig (with a degree in engineering), insulting him and telling him he's damn wrong (doing his work as engineer) and needs to wake up. Facts proved the 18 years old was correct and after that he got respected.
What it takes is been flexible and willing to work hard. With those qualities you will be respected and will be able to go up on the ladder. Skills are very welcome too of course, but those previous are the mandatory qualities.

I'm here on AUKN from a bit more of one year, but I recall you and Josh have always been complaining you can't find a job. Is it really true you can't find ANY job? Or is it that you can't find the job that you would like to do?
To my eyes it's not wise to complain about not having a job that pays decent money, while you are sitting in front of a computer and watching anime. If you really had real life troubles (aka or you get money or you don't eat) then you would not be here writing in a forum, you would be dishwashing, cleaning streets or whatever would allow you to pay for food. Complaining while you could be doing SOMETHING (be it going for a dirty work or trying to fulfill your revolutionary ideals) but you are not... well, not good on my book.



Teo
 
I used to do all those dirty jobs, but even they don't pay enough. They lowered the wage to £4 an hour, removed the heaters (so we'd work faster and they'd save money, despite the fact that we were in a metal warehouse), removed our breaks, shortened our lunch, work without saftey equiptment etc

So, late last year I decided to go back into education so I could get a better job, not just money wise, but quality of work.
 
Well, to be honest I think pretty much all of my comments are "macro" comments so perhaps that's where *I* get confused. Maestro said my comments are too general to be of use to one person... Well that's because they're not intended to be. Everybody is different, everybody's situation is different so all I was attempting to do was to represent another way of looking at things which didn't appear to be being acknowledged by others. People are more than welcome to disagree or even think my comments are unhelpful, but I always feel balance is important in these situations.

I understand where you and Rui are coming from Teo. I understand, perfectly, the reasoning behind all of the things you have described. This doesn't mean I have to like it or accept that's the way things should be. Yes, that's the current real world, but that's not good in my book. Perhaps that makes me a head-in-the-clouds idealist but if I resigned myself to the idea that this is the way things have to be, I don't imagine I would have any motivation at all.

Of course I can't speak for Josh (and I think "always complaining" is a bit of an exaggeration, we've had I think two conversations about it, this being the second) I left school in 2001. Since then, I have had one break in employment for 6 months when I moved towns (in order to look for work as I previously lived in a small village) which ended when I started my own business. As for my situation now, I have been out of work since January last year, but lived off savings and only started looking seriously for work in August. Since then, I've applied for literally hundreds of jobs completely earnestly, using a CV drawn up with help from a guy who used to be a recruiter. I have had two job interviews, both of which went very well. I was even offered one, but it turns out my previous employer has decided to hold a grudge against me for leaving abruptly. They're absolutely entitled to do that despite the fact that it was their own shoddy business practices (despite putting in plenty of hard work and extra hours I was absolutely *not* respected) which caused me to quit, but I wish they had given me some indication they were going to do so before they gave me a bad reference which cost me the job - I was under the impression until now my leaving had been amicable. Of the other businesses I worked for, one was my own and one has closed down. So I have ten years work experience but no references to count on. I'd do the dirty jobs, but because of the UK's minimum wage system, employers hire younger people for these jobs who they can pay less. You don't need experience or references to wash dishes, after all. As for being able to live off those jobs... I don't know what the rents are like in Italy but there's no way you'd be able to live off them here. A full time job at minimum wage you can live off, or a part time job at a good wage, but certainly not a part time job at minimum wage. Again, that's why the kids are more keen to do them because they still live with their parents and don't need to earn a real living yet.

I don't think I do have serious troubles and I know there are people much worse off than me - But I do feel f*cking useless, and tired of this dance I have to carry on with in order to find employment. And the only area I have experience in (so the only area I'm likley to find work in again) is being a salesperson, something I've come to loathe anyway. How did Morrissey put it - "In my life, Why do I smile, At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye"? That's how I feel about being a salesperson. I'd rather work down a damn mine or in shipyard, but they were all closed down of course.
 
GolGotha said:
I used to do all those dirty jobs, but even they don't pay enough. They lowered the wage to £4 an hour, removed the heaters (so we'd work faster and they'd save money, despite the fact that we were in a metal warehouse), removed our breaks, shortened our lunch, work without saftey equiptment etc

So, late last year I decided to go back into education so I could get a better job, not just money wise, but quality of work../quote]]/quote]]/quote]
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^ This, and what ayase said too. Don't get me wrong, I know you have to do what you have to do in order to make ends meet when your back is up against the wall. But I think it's all a bit easy and inconsiderate to just say "You don't have a job? Stop being a lazy sod with too much pride, there are plenty of ****** jobs out there for you!". I've done my share of ****** jobs over the years, and I agree with what Golgotha said, first of all they pay like crap as one would expect, but most importantly (for me anyway) the actual quality of the conditions your expected to work under are often terrible. In certain jobs, some can put up and deal with these conditions, and others simply can't, everyone is is different. And if I feel like if I can't put up with the conditions an employer is expecting me to work under, f*ck it, I'd rather get on Job seekers until I can find one I can put up with, as I really don't want to either damage my body, or put up with an unusually high amount of daily stress for a minimum wage. And this has nothing to do with me thinking jobs are too "lowly" for me (I've actually been a dishwasher, and had no problem with the work, though thanks to some complete ********, I was unjustly fired from that job), it's just that different people are made differently and suited to different forms of work, so I don't think it's fair to simply say "why are you on Job seekers? Get off your arse and get first piece of **** job you can get". Because I swear, if you expect me to work under that psychotic and supremely aggressive Russia supervisor who doesn't speak English properly and so can't explain to me how to do my job, he's gonna kill me or I will kill him, it's going to be a bloodbath either way.

Don't get me wrong, there'll always be jobs out there if you keep looking hard enough, but I don't think it's fair to make it sound quite as straight forward as you are Teo, I also think it's a bit harsh on Josh and other unemployed AUKN'ers, to somehow make them feel guilty for having no job and taking the liberty of using an internet forum. Even bums like me need some respite.
 
I just found out that a weekly bus ticket for my area apparently now costs £32 (or £79 a month for a monthly recurring payment). So that's pretty much the entirety of a week's wages gone already. Food will probably cost me roughly £5 a day (and probably £1million if I choose to actually eat at the hospital), so that's another £25 a week gone. So that's roughly £179 a month gone, leaving me with £221. I get £224 a month on Jobseeker's Allowance. So I'll actually be down £3 a month. The only reason I want a job is so I put money into the house - Mum's on long term incapacity benefit and is even now thinking of looking for work due to the situation our household is in at the moment, so yeah...

I'm getting pretty fed up now.
 
Ah, I don't think Teo is being harsh Vash, and feeling guilty about something is a choice... It's just a matter of people's different experiences in life. Some have had to work harder and have had that hard work rewarded, some coast along and are fine, some put their all in and receive little in return. None of us really know (unless we let each other know) what our lives have been like up to this point, so it's easy to come at a scenario from a certain angle and neglect the other angles people might be approaching it from. The most important thing is recognising that those other situations exist and not presuming life is the same for everyone, I think.
 
I know he wasn't deliberately being harsh and just trying to be helpful, but in all honesty the last paragraph in his post is the kind of awfully presumptuous thing that always irks me. There are some who just like to rag on others because they aren't happy either, and there are some who say such things because they genuinely think it will be inspiring and helpful. But having myself been in the position of basically an unemployed person feeling pretty ****** about his prospects, I know that such advice often just makes one feel like even more of a bum- and not in a motivating way.
 
There are a LOT of points throw down and plenty of shared feelings in both of these "sides" of the debate. As someone who has been in the retail sector for his entire employment history, and has never achieved anything higher than the lowest rank of any job, you might understand that I have a sceptical view on how "common" ranking and promotional schemes are followed through.

Teo, you are absolutely correct when it comes to pen-to-paper theories of how people SHOULD act, and how work SHOULD progress. I agree that if you really want something, get you bloody hand into the ground and dig up some treasure-trove of an opportunity. Just because it don't glitter and look nice, don't mean you can't use it and be happy in the long run.
Vash - to think of your safety and stress levels in a job is fine, but do I have to go to the lengths of pointing out there are REALLY crappy jobs out there, to the point of extremes, and it's still done? I remember a guy climbing up a tall, thin pole that goes 100's of metres high, and all he does is look at something at the top, see it still working, and then takes about 3 hrs to get back down to safety.
Or maybe lets visit some places in Asia ("Middle East" and further east), where people have to take days to travel the toughest and most dangerous roads in the world, just to send sheep from lower to higher grounds, and it is done over days of foot travelling. Or in China, where you have every health and safety regulation we are comfortable knowing about thrown out the window in smog, leaving company owners to help build things with little concern with their own employee's safety or for employees to worry about themselves/others. But you know what? The job gets done, even if it's someone else pulling the heavy duty for a time.
From someone like me, who hates/loathes/disrespects the very invention of money, to hear that the 1st thing someone says they're going to do is sponge off a decrepit and flawed system like Job seekers - And from the sounds of their description, to then look for a job of "convenience" more than ANY job, then I can say with no guilt that you are stealing money from a bunch of suited thieves who are stealing what I declare is rightfully mine in this society. Maybe not outright taking it, but more like taking advantage of what it gives you, and I'll be the selfish jerk to say that I get nothing from this situation.

But lets get back to Teo here for a second - The word "should" should be replaced with either is/are/am or isn't/aren't/not. (Yeah, even I'm saying should, but let me work with what I've got.) As Ayase has said, eveny person - and let's think things more accurately - each event in life is individual. The word "should" is really only a word for guidelines and rough drafts, not for a real situation or final stage of something. And what does that say about the reality of our working society? That some people are luckier through one mean or another when it comes to opportunities, and then there are others with the same efforts or chances as the lucky ones that don't get that luck. But that's not because of some lottery result or "fate," it's because the reality is that there is no definite formula for getting a job, as you may be a hard worker/searcher and still be a "2nd candidate," or you can just walk into your 1st interview with the gift-of-the-gab and stroll into a new position, or you can be one of the situations in between them.
So if things went to how things SHOULD do, we wouldn't need a Job Seekers Allowance scheme, and we wont have people thinking that the 1st damn thing they would do is go onto it. Not blaming the person for doing so to a point, but more of that idea that is given to them thanks to the circumstances, and to the fact that not every person on any rank (but especially those of a more advantageous position) acts like they supposed to.

Rui's workplace sounds like something I would be more than proud to be part of and to work for (paid/volunteered/social responsibility, doesn't matter.) That is something as describes as almost a goldmine when it comes to a group of people working together and committing to a cause. I'm not in that situation, however, but I am very lucky to have what I have at the moment.
I am possibly the most quiet and reserved man in my workplace, but I have somehow managed to put on a smile at the interviews, have the collected research I've compiled on the company, and shown something that must of made them thought "He's the one." I don't think I did anything special either, I just did what I could to the best I could - nothing else. And I got the job, in fact it was my 2nd job at the current time. I then chucked my old job to be able to get more hours permanently for my job at Booths, and I was happy doing my best in the bakery. Things then changed dramatically, as they then wanted me to take on Stage 2 of my ICQ training - of which half-way-through, the managers (that decided I was the right man for the job for a year after contract signing) to suddenly change everything in job requirements, giving more workload to me with more responsibilities that myself (and some of the others) couldn't keep up with. I was in a downward spiral at work and at home, I went to disciplinary meetings feeling like I'm going to loose my job and I was humiliated. I did everything I could to convince them otherwise, in my own time, and maybe instead of firing me it was those measures that proved I wanted to work for them no matter what. Which then left me in a position of till staff. I personally don't want to be there, as I like to be active and not stationary, but I will take the position to keep some stability in life. I will go in every day and plaster a smile on my face, whether or not I need to or feel like it, and say to myself "This is not the customer's fault I'm in a skill deprived station." Then the day will go with me doing my best to keep the job, doing tasks I'm asked to do or I ask to try out/help.

But is this a job that is convenient for me? No, I make it work for me - even though I know that I will gain nothing further in it than a minimal sense of stability, and a lot of grief towards my old managers and probably from my current ones. And I still count myself lucky to even have a job, because even I know without it, I'd be in a trap I don't want to be locked in called unemployment.

So let me revise and collect myself again - I can see that both sides have their arguments. There is a system, but it doesn't work 100% of the time, as people and their events/views are different. Tomorrow, I'm still going to think that the managers would rather try to stretch things out than go for the last resorts - employ the unemployed or promote someone like me. This has led to people desperately depending to JSA, and when I see a family having a place to live, kids, a TV, toys and not having to work, spending time with their kids, all supported on benefits - It's sickening that the society and it's state is driving good people (forcing them) towards the "gimme, gimme" lifestyle of these cheats that live off our (the employed, mainly working class or lower) hard work!
We dont need a wishy-washy society that looks to half-arsed decisions from "democrats" who dont keep promises. I'd rather live in a monarchy, a strong one that stands on it's own, than the present mish-mashed and contradicting ideals of a pen full of well dressed pigs.
 
Adding my 2 pence on it all, Ego plays a part in jobs too.

It would be naive of me to say "theres a job out there for everyone but people are too damn picky about what they want to do in life" but i do believe that there is a job out there for those who are willing to work towards getting it.

Ayase you know my logic on jobs and the way the current way of the world works is almost identical to your own, i find it repulsive that one person who has gone to college then bummed through uni can walk into a job that people who left school and started working on day 1 can't even work to. The Class divide is disgusting in the world; you only need to look at the government to realize that 90% of MP's are private schooled and went to the best colleges and Uni's to get into their current jobs... and once they are in, its a festering pit of rats and fat cats who will pass taxes through the houses to benefit themselves and screw over the working class.

It should all end, f***ing hell just look back 100's of years... you'd learn your trade from the owner of the establishment you worked for, no jimmy cockarm strutters was walking about fresh out of school with papers that say "i can now do this, i learnt it in a classroom so im now qualified as a master of it" it was worked towards by blood, sweat and f***ing tears and only after working your arse off would your colleagues in the same profession stand there and see you as an equal.

Speed it up to modern day and i've been working for the past 6 years since i left high school, sure i attended night classes at a local college and sure i was accepted into the best college in the county but decided to work instead, i chose the road of a grafter so to speak... my friends went on to college, uni and some left uni last year, the same people who now have degree's and Honours to their name can't get a job to save their life... Why? Because some of us (meaning people who went straight into working) & Immigrants who come across to work and work bloody hard have worked our way through the **** years of crap wages and build foundations to our own career path... employers prefer someone who has prior work experience in the field they work in. So my point is; why the F*** are the government keeping the whole "the higher education you go through, the more you will earn" Its a pipe dream in about 50% of cases, they come out of uni with debt & no job experience stops them getting a job to pay it off.

The debt goes back to the government, those who have been funded by the bank of mum and dad carry on through to power in the government and realize how cushy it,is; dont fight for equality of all and the cycle continues.

We need someone to go through it all, become a PM and decide "i'm fighting for the people, enough of this ********"

Anyway, I think i've said enough.

Peace!
 
Unemployment (and even housing) benefit is actually a tiny, tiny proportion of government spending Chaz - The whole "scroungers on benefits taking our hard-earned cash " is a diversionary tactic by the people at the top. I'm sure you've heard the joke about members of each class sat round a table with a plate of ten biscuits - The upper class person takes nine, then nudges the middle class person, points to the working class person and says "watch he doesn't steal your biscuit".

Out of the benefits pot, JSA is a measly 3bn a year. By contrast state pensions stand at a staggering 63bn (as much as the entire department for education and children) but I don't see anyone telling the pensioners to get off their arses and work (considering the retirement age plenty of them are capable of it, and who's to say they were all hard working when they were younger?). Hell, we pay 25bn just on interest on the national debt.

This article just appeared on the BBC website and is pretty relevant, I feel: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21755034
 
to think of your safety and stress levels in a job is fine, but do I have to go to the lengths of pointing out there are REALLY crappy jobs out there, to the point of extremes, and it's still done?
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I don't really know what point you were trying to make with this. That there are people who can, will and have do this work, and that there are countries with a lack of human rights? Yeah I know. I'm not opposed to a hard working job at all, in fact I would probably prefer climbing up a pole or whatever than do any kind of desk job, but maybe climbing up a pole isn't for everyone and there are some who just wouldn't be able to handle it. It doesn't have to be such a dramatic example, maybe there are people who have dyslexia and also struggle to maintain around hordes of demanding customers, for whom a job say like working the tills at M&S over the Christmas period might be the absolute definition of hell on earth, while someone who doesn't struggle with numbers, coordination and people skills might find the same job a doddle. I'd say if someone in that situation chooses to abandon their job in order to claim JSA while they actively search for a more suitable job, they are doing it for more than just a lazy convenience.

as for the whole "lazy scrounging families stealing our money" thing, see ayase's post. Accounts of that kind of stuff that you see in the Sun or whatever are usually greatly exaggerated, and there are far, far greater wastages of money.
 
vashdaman said:
I know he wasn't deliberately being harsh and just trying to be helpful, but in all honesty the last paragraph in his post is the kind of awfully presumptuous thing that always irks me. There are some who just like to rag on others because they aren't happy either, and there are some who say such things because they genuinely think it will be inspiring and helpful. But having myself been in the position of basically an unemployed person feeling pretty ****** about his prospects, I know that such advice often just makes one feel like even more of a bum- and not in a motivating way.
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Actually I was being harsh in some ways, voluntarily (I'll try to explain in this post) and involuntarily (my natural harshness is proverbial, I don't like being politically correct).
I was being harsh because personally I can't stand young men (people in their 20s) that are not willing to strive finding a job, or refuse jobs that they think are not up to their standards. Here in Italy it's simply full of those kinds of mama-boys, who prefer to stay at home at the expenses of their parents instead of putting some efforts to enter the working world. I'm totally convinced that one of the main sources of the actual crisis in Italy is due to this huge laziness by that demographics. For sure the main reason is elsewhere (count me in the ones who really dislike how actual society is structured). But the fact that a whole generation (the one that should be the main motor to start changing things now) is full of apathy and is facing this crisis totally passively, well, let me be blunt (at the risk of being offensive) and say I find it totally disgusting. So if there is the chance to say to lazy people that they need to move their asses, then I'll be in first line doing so and I'll be harsh.

Having said this and continuing being direct and harsh, I don't see why someone who isn't lazy could find offensive my prevous post. I was addressing my harshness to some precise kind of behaviour. If you are not part of it (as you wrote), then honestly I just can't see why my words had touched you. I apologize if you got offended by what I wrote, I hope now things are more clear.

After writing this clarification and after reading your answer, I dare to say my opinion on your (Vash and Ayase) situation. To me it seems that you still haven't found your talents, aka the jobs you are good at and you really WANT to do. I'm convinced that everyone has his fitted job out there, the job for which he is talented and at the same time he enjoys doing it. And I'm convinced that when someone knows what his fitted job is, then he just needs to put all his passion and efforts and soon he'll be employed. Sometimes it takes time and a lot of inner search to find what you really want to do in your life, but this struggle must be done if you want to live happily.
Maybe my personal experience is far from the statistical average (totally possible), but all people I met who knew what they really wanted to do in their life had succeeded finding their fitted jobs. Sometimes easier, sometimes facing troubles, but good will and hard work led them to find what they wanted. It's just a matter of strong passion and strong will.



Teo
 
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