Shonen series discussion

[Smeelia]

You should definitely watch Brotherhood ASAP. It's amazing and quite cheap now.

I've already got the whole series and I think it's available on Netflix anyway so I don't really have an excuse. I've partly been holding off to watch it with my brother (both because that seems appropriate somehow and because we watched the original anime together) but he doesn't have so much time to watch anime these days so maybe I should just try it myself (or start pestering him more intensely).

With that being said, I am under no under no illusion of what Bleach is, it's loud, dumb, over the top nonsense where OP cartoons beat the crap out one another with crazy powers, but you know what sometimes that's all I want, just brain dead fun.

I guess that's true but I did feel that Bleach could have been something a bit "more" based on the first season (not sure "more" is the right word since that'd imply the way it is now is somehow "less"). I suppose some people might argue it is anyway, I've only seen some 60-70 episodes or thereabouts so I can't judge the whole thing (and even what I've seen was a while ago now).

 

[ilmaestro]

Shounen manga used to be OK until Shueisha cancelled Oumagadoki Zoo.

 

[Morcombe]

This post will contain spoilers, especially for Bleach.

Read Dragon Ball/Z, Rurouni kenshin, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Bakuman, kekkaishi, Flame of Recca, rave Master, Samurai Deeper Kyo, Fullmetal Alchemist and so many more. if it's shounen and published in english then I probably own it.

I follow many series being published right now like nisekoi, Toriko, Magi, Food Wars, Seraph of the End, Seven Deadly Sins and so on.

The only Manga I read consistently on a week to week basis because I've been doing it for the last 10 years is One Piece, Naruto, Bleach and Fairy Tail.

One Piece is for me is one of the best series ever and if Oda pulls of all these mysterious he's set up it may very well be a masterpiece but that's far in teh future.

Naruto I enjoyed until the end of the Pain arc where everything then became talk no Jutsu and the world war was just awful.

Fairy Tail is just dumb fun.


Bleach for those first 27 volumes was great, then we entered Hueco Mundo and everything just got awful. But I keep reading because I didn't spend 10 years on it to not finish it.

the rumors say that Kubo was forced to start the soul society arc early because readers didn't like the substitute shinigami stuff so Tatsuki, Keigo and the other guy never got the development and spirit power they were originally planned to have so they could join Ichigo's team, dunno if true but considering Tatsuki could sense spirits at the beginning I think it is true.

Second problem the popularity polls came in during the Arrancar arc (Volumes 21 - 27) and the shinigami pretty much ruled the roost in them and so the human cast who we had been following for 27 volumes was all but abandoned except for Ichigo in favour of the shinigami and the series just became an absolute bore to read because the shinigami are too powerful, none of the Espada or thur minions could touch them and then after 100 odd chapters of all these meaningless minions that had almost no prior screen time or character development getting destroyed Aizen went ahead and solo'd everyone, wtf. Then finally after years of waiting Ichigo vs. Aizen starts and pretty much ends in a OHKO.......are you kidding me.

We had seen the shinigami as villains for Volumes 6-20, I had no connection to them, I wanted to continue reading Ichigo, Uryuu, Chad, Orihime and so on as they went against all odds against the big villain. that's what works, your little band of heroes go against the opposing evil force against all the odds and that's where you get you an emotional connection as you try and think of how they could win or what will happen if they mess up. but Kubo reversed that situation. It was the villains who didn't have a chance against the good guys and it was so boring and repetitive. Chapter 1 of the fight would make it look like an even fight and end with the villain transformation, chapter 2 would have the villain beat up the good guy who would reveal something about his sword at the end. Chapter 3 would have the shinigami completely destroy the villain with ease making you wonder why we had to spend 3 or more chapters on this when he could have just done that in the first place. I mean I don't know these bad guys, I don't wanna spend a month reading their fight, they just showed up to make sure everyone got a fight and had no chance of ever winning or making me believe they could win.
The Espada weren't much better, Starrk lost to a Shikai, no ban kai needed to beat the number 1 espada.
Kubo wrote hismelf into a corner with Barragan so had to use his own power to kill him and he repeated this stupidity with Gremmy in the blood war arc.
Harribel was cut down by Aizen cause she was useless to him just like every single minion he had, even Kubo knew the whole thing had been pointless but only skipped Harribel's fight instead of all the dumb minions that no one cared about

In terms of tropes the shinigami are the "Big Good" the one you call on when all hope is lost, example would be the Hokage having to save Naruto in every fight or Gildarts in Fairy Tail. Woudl One Piece be as interesting of Shanks crew bailed Luffy's crew out every arc, no and that's what the Shinigami did for Ichigo and his original team.

and the current Blood War arc is just the same, for a very small moment the Quincy looked to have the advantage but as soon as Kisuke got the bankai's back the Quincy were fodder for the Shinigami. Just one squad Zero member wiped out all 4 of the supposed Elite Guard of the major antagonist. and just like Aizen, Ywach is so powerful now he probably doesn't need any lackies to begin with, he could have just solo'd everyone and saved us all this time. It's not like anything was stopping him, like When Frieza is away searching for the password for the Dragon Balls while the Ginyu Force fight Goku and co. Two quincy beat Hitsugaya and Soifon to an "inch" of their lives but ban kai's came back and they one shotted the completely unharmed Quincy despite being vitally injured....how does that make sense.

Ultimately the decision to favour the shinigami probably saved the series in japan but for me it killed it and made it one of the most boring manga. you just look back through the manga and tell me the last fight you read where you believed there was an equal chance that both fighters in a match could win, cause for me it Was Ichigo vs. Grimmjow in Hueco Mundo, everything has been a one sided slaughter ever since either for the shinigami or usually the main villain.

 

[Joshawott]

@Morcombe - One thing that has always bugged me with Bleach is how a lot of battles are artificially prolonged by having characters hold back their power despite what is currently at stake at the time, which is emphasised by the amount of characters who are more willing to activate their bankai once it has been used in the series already. You would think that in a real situation, a Soul Reaper would just want to be done with the enemy as soon as possible, but the only Soul Reapers I can recall who tend to activate their bankai sooner rather than later are Ichigo, Hitsugaya, Renji and Komamura.

In regards to the characters who do consciously restrict themselves in this way, I think Tite Kubo has done a good job of explaining the most notable instances. For example, Suì-Fēng doesn't like using Jakuhō Raikōben because its heavy-artillery nature conflicts with her usual fighting style, Kenpachi restricts his power using the eye-patch because he genuinely enjoys fighting and wants them to last longer, while Ikkaku will only use Ryūmon Hōzukimaru when no other Soul Reapers are around because he doesn't want the Gotei 13 finding out and promoting him to Captain/Vice-Captain.

I think the battle between Kyoraku and Starrk should be given the benefit of the doubt though, considering that not only did Starrk manage to take out both Love and Rose before Kyoraku rejoined the fight, but we don't actually know the nature of Kyoraku's bankai, outside of Ukitake warning him not to use it where others might see. Could that be because they don't want anyone else finding out, or because it would put any witnesses in harm's way? For example, you can see why Yamamoto was reluctant to activate his bankai, because not only is his shikai powerful enough, but the effects of just its activation could be felt throughout Soul Society.

 

[IncendiaryLemon]

One thing I wish we saw more of is Dragonball Kai-esque re-edits of long running shounen shows. I really didn't like the original Dragonball Z, it was just painfully drawn out and had so much filler, I dropped it after about 40 episodes. However, I really liked Kai, as it had none of the issues I had with Z. Obviously you wouldn't be able to do this with One Piece or any show that's still airing, but with Bleach and Naruto ending soon (I think, or they may already be done, I'm not sure) I'd love if they started putting out edited down versions of the shows, with no filler. That's probably the only way I'd want to watch these shows myself.

 

[Morcombe]

One thing I wish we saw more of is Dragonball Kai-esque re-edits of long running shounen shows. I really didn't like the original Dragonball Z, it was just painfully drawn out and had so much filler, I dropped it after about 40 episodes. However, I really liked Kai, as it had none of the issues I had with Z. Obviously you wouldn't be able to do this with One Piece or any show that's still airing, but with Bleach and Naruto ending soon (I think, or they may already be done, I'm not sure) I'd love if they started putting out edited down versions of the shows, with no filler. That's probably the only way I'd want to watch these shows myself.

Considering one Piece started in 1999, I think Toei could remake the East Blue portion of the manga as is it's own year long anime with updated modern animation cause those first 50 episodes are looking really dated now. That way we'd get rid of that stupid dragon arc between loguetown and reverse mountain. I know they gave us stuff like Episode of Nami for the Arlong arc but thur's too much stuff missing from specials like that.


@Joshawott. I have no problems with shinigami holding back thur bankai's for the reasons you stated my main problem was spending so much time on the Fraccion. I didn't care about seeing all those little minions that Barragan and Harribel brought with them, they were just there to fight the shinigami that no one cared about like Kira, Hisage and the vice captain under Soifon and so on. how long did we spend on that monster that the three Harribel girls made by ripping their arms off only for Yamamoto to one shot him and the three girls a few chapters later. There is no reason to drag fights out like that when you have someone there capable of owning the villains. This is why Goku is stalled all the time in DBZ or Luffy is stalled in One piece. so that you can't say, well he was there all the time why didnt he just one shot the baddies in the first place.

One Bankai I do have a problem with came most recently, Rukia's. She had Bankai through the whole fight with As Nodt but refused to use it until she almost died and had to be rescued by Byakuya and that had no good reason. it was just padding to make Rukia's fight last over a month. Renji is probably another padded fight as I saw no reason for him to stall his new updated bankai either.

 

[Joshawott]

One thing I wish we saw more of is Dragonball Kai-esque re-edits of long running shounen shows. I really didn't like the original Dragonball Z, it was just painfully drawn out and had so much filler, I dropped it after about 40 episodes. However, I really liked Kai, as it had none of the issues I had with Z. Obviously you wouldn't be able to do this with One Piece or any show that's still airing, but with Bleach and Naruto ending soon (I think, or they may already be done, I'm not sure) I'd love if they started putting out edited down versions of the shows, with no filler. That's probably the only way I'd want to watch these shows myself.

One of the biggest problems I can see with doing that for Naruto and Bleach is that sometimes, the anime would blend canon material and filler together (especially in the case of Naruto Shippuden).

@Joshawott. I have no problems with shinigami holding back thur bankai's for the reasons you stated my main problem was spending so much time on the Fraccion. I didn't care about seeing all those little minions that Barragan and Harribel brought with them, they were just there to fight the shinigami that no one cared about like Kira, Hisage and the vice captain under Soifon and so on. how long did we spend on that monster that the three Harribel girls made by ripping their arms off only for Yamamoto to one shot him and the three girls a few chapters later. There is no reason to drag fights out like that when you have someone there capable of owning the villains. This is why Goku is stalled all the time in DBZ or Luffy is stalled in One piece. so that you can't say, well he was there all the time why didnt he just one shot the baddies in the first place.

One Bankai I do have a problem with came most recently, Rukia's. She had Bankai through the whole fight with As Nodt but refused to use it until she almost died and had to be rescued by Byakuya and that had no good reason. it was just padding to make Rukia's fight last over a month. Renji is probably another padded fight as I saw no reason for him to stall his new updated bankai either.

I think the most obvious sign of padding was how in the Fake Karakura Town Arc, Yamamoto simply used his Shikai to restrain Aizen, Gin and Tozen while the Soul Reapers fought the Espada and Fraccion. I think if Yamamoto activated his Bankai, the only challenge he might have had would have been due to Aizen's Hogyoku. Instead, he basically just defeated Ayon and stood there until Aizen et al were freed.

You do make a good point though - who actually does care about Kira, Hisagi etc?

 

[Lutga]

I have to admit, the Karakura town arc where the soul reaper captains battle the Arrancars probably is one of my favourites from Bleach, chiefly because by that point, the stakes are so high, and you finally get to see a lot of the soul reaper captains really pushed to their limits.

It always makes me chuckle that most of the battles are up in the air though - I'm sure I remember reading that that was just becayse Kubo couldn't be bothered to draw backgrounds.