RahXephon VS Evangelion Thread

[Ark]

The theme of love wasn't prominently explored in RahXephon? The whole thing is rife with romance, all of the characters are in love with each other; it's a series about what love will make you do. Have a think about the way all the characters act in RahXephon - all of them are motivated by love in some way or another.

Harem anime's have love in them as well.That isn't a theme though. For it to be a theme it has to be explored through the story. In RahXephon it's just something in the story. By this logic you could say that music is a theme.

And finally, complaining about a ridiculous premise? How about this - a depressed boy trying to save the world in a robot that's possessed by the soul of his dead mother. Everything about anime, to a certain degree, is ridiculous. It seems like you're applying double standards simply to hate on RahXephon. As far as I can see it, your problem comes from the fact that you aren't feeling something the rest of us are - so maybe that's more to do with you than any perceived failing of RahXephon itself.

Why are you bringing up the science fiction aspects of Eva? Do you see me complaining about the science fiction aspects of RahXephon?

What was she supposed to say
'' Hi, l'm your girlfriend from 3 years ago. You don't remember be cause you evil step mom re-engineered you memory cause she didn't like me. Why do I look twice your age? Oh that's be cause there is this weird time dilation thing to do with the absolute barrier system you step mom put up. I causes time inside to pass more slowly on the inside than on they outside.'
Yeah that's really going to inspire him to go way with her. Not run in the opposite direction screaming.
But that scene shows the start of hints of her relationship with him. As he runs onto the train with Reika and leaves the look on her face is not one of an intelligence officer who's lost her mark, but of something else. Skip on to episode 3 where she ends up pick out his clothes after his fashion disaster, again would just an intelligence officer do that? Also you see him show some interest in her (even if it was just a quick perv while she was changing). Next episode has a biggy. when Ayato says that people outside Tokyo seem to to think the people inside weren't human Haruka said 'You don't think i'm one of those people do you? then who cares what they think.' She cared a lot about what he felt about her.
The rejection in episode 5 was when they were going to take Ayato to his accomidation, Haruka reaches for his hand (a bit over familiar) and he jerks away then says 'don't touch me'. Haruka looks devastated by this.

Pretty standard gender tension anime antics. You can tell the writers realised they made a mistake as they change the subway scene in the film to have it fit better with the rest of the story. Like I've said several times now it's certainly not indicative of this unhealthy fixation she allegedly has with him, which if the roles were reversed (gender wise) would be seen as pretty disturbing.

On a side note I think the Japanese put too much importance on the power of high school relationships. Possibly because those are the only kind they are having nowadays.

 

[Paul]

To say love isn't a theme of RahXephon is to say that loneliness isn't a theme in Evangelion. I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong on this point. The end of RahXephon, in particular, is symbolic of this theme. Go back and watch it, because you clearly missed it.

Also, your harem anime comparison is fairly pointless. Mecha is "just something in the story", but love is the central theme that binds it altogether.

And yes, I do see you complaining about the science fiction aspects of RahXephon, given you've claimed the premise is "ridiculous" - after all, the central love story has its roots in science fiction. My retort to which is that the premise in all science fiction anime borders on madness; that you were able to accept the ideas in Evangelion and not in RahXephon strikes me as odd, or rather, being intentionally nit-picky. It's enough just to say that you didn't feel the emotion between the characters. Obviously, we did.

But you know what, we already had this debate back in 2005and back then I was on the other side of the fence. What I'm trying to say is that I'm tiring of this argument; RahXephon is not a bad series, it's actually quite good, but Evangelion is better. That's pretty much my stance.

 

[Ark]

To say love isn't a theme of RahXephon is to say that loneliness isn't a theme in Evangelion.

On its own no I don't think it is a theme in Evangelion. However at the same time it is actually analysed through the story. It isn't just an issue of the characters being lonely.

I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong on this point. The end of RahXephon, in particular, is symbolic of this theme. Go back and watch it, because you clearly missed it.

I've watched the ending many times because I like the scene on the beach but that doesn't prove that love is a theme. Anyway for something to really be a theme you should be able to put it in a sentence.

Also, your harem anime comparison is fairly pointless. Mecha is "just something in the story", but love is the central theme that binds it altogether.

I just don't agree.

And yes, I do see you complaining about the science fiction aspects of RahXephon, given you've claimed the premise is "ridiculous" - after all, the central love story has its roots in science fiction. My retort to which is that the premise in all science fiction anime borders on madness; that you were able to accept the ideas in Evangelion and not in RahXephon strikes me as odd, or rather, being intentionally nit-picky. It's enough just to say that you didn't feel the emotion between the characters. Obviously, we did.

I'm not talking about the science fiction elements being ridiculous though. I'm talking about the "love story" situation. You could conceivably create the same situation in a less science fictional way but my problems with it would remain. This is really more a criticism of the character portrayal. You could also make the assertion that the situation is so totally removed from reality that it can't have any meaning. Compare with Eva in terms of Shinji's character development which I would say is the central theme. I don't find the fact that Yui's "death" is fantastic a problem in the way Shinji's character has developed at the start of the show. The point is though she could have died in any fashion and it would still be believeable. My problem with Rah is that the "love story" isn't believeable with or without the science fiction aspect.

But you know what, we already had this debate back in 2005and back then I was on the other side of the fence. What I'm trying to say is that I'm tiring of this argument; RahXephon is not a bad series, it's actually quite good, but Evangelion is better. That's pretty much my stance.

Well my stance is that Evangelion is better but by much more than a few degrees. If it was just the case of a few degrees I wouldn't even be having this debate.

 

[Ramadahl]

I'd go as far as to say that RahXephon is a love story in a sci-fi setting: - the romance between the characters is the overriding theme. And Ark - it was very present right from the beginning.

While I didn't think RahXephon was bad, I'd still rank it lower than Eva - not due to the sci-fi plot elements (which I rather liked), but the characters - all the characters in RahXephon were so dull. I couldn't care less about any of them.

 

[Ark]

And Ark - it was very present right from the beginning.

We're gonna have to disagree

all the characters in RahXephon were so dull. I couldn't care less about any of them.

Apart from Megumi I totally agree.

 

[hopeful_monster]

And Ark - it was very present right from the beginning.

We're gonna have to disagree

Since this seems to be what is going to happen from now on in regards to Rahxephon I'm going to abandon that route (as we have reached the end of the road with it) and change tact. Should point out at the start that I like Eva, seen it may times, and it has my all time favourite fight anime scene (mecha or other wise).
BUT I'm going to show the points in Eva which detracted from it, why i don't rate it as high as other as series.
Story structure. - The series has a very bitty story structure. Individual episodes often have little impact on the next (unless it's a 2 parter) and the plot seemed to move in fits and starts often plots reverting to the 'monster of the day' fall-back. Also the arcs often don't join well together. Episodes 1-7 work well as a kind of darker physiological look at Shinji and him coping with the huge burden of being a Eva pilot. By the end of episode 7 you see him just coming out of his shell a bit.
The you get to episode 8 and everything changes and until episode 17 the series shows little of the depth it showed in the 1st arc. This part has the most 'monster of the day' type episodes with the emphasis on how to defeat the Angels above most else. Yes bits of the over plot are slipped in (Human Instrumentality project which i'll get to later), but the main focus is let's kick angel arse or what ever functions for an arse on a giant pretzel. 18-24 well thing go a bit down hill for everyone, but its gettimng towards the end of the series, so some adversity for the protagonists (can't really say hero's with a strait face) to over come is acceptable, almost expected. Then comes the last two episodes ...
Character progression - coming full circle is not progression, neither is going backwards. And as for the ending, death may be easier to write but it's no where near as satisfying as emotional maturation.
Human Instrumentality project- moving humanity to the next stage of evolution ... yeah... if you say so. First while it was mentioned a lot it was never really explained much beyond that. Had something to do with the foetus like thing in Gendo's hand, and 'Adam' i think, oh and Lillth (the weird thing in the basement on the cross). But it was never really explained what it was. Now after finishing it read many article about eva in a number of sources and no two agree oh what the **** it is.
Moreover why did they leave this monumental action in the hands (or mind) of a 14 yr old kid i wouldn't leave in charge of a popcorn stand, and in no way try and condition the child to make sure he makes the 'right' decision. What ever Seele though that should be.
Also did they ever look up evolution in dictionary? Evolution is a reaction to external influences, not something you or any individual can do. But I'm a biologist and kinda nit picky about things like that.
Last 2 episodes - WTF. No really W T F . Episode 25 seemed to be character torture for no reason. Fracturing their minds for little or no purpose other than the directors sick kicks. Turner off half way throught last time i watched as although i may not have like that characters wouldn't wish that on anyone ( well may M, but that's another story). 26 falls kinda into the HIP trap as well read many article about eva in a number of sources and no two agree oh what smeg is going on.
Now I've heard one chain of thought saying 'Well the ending was kinda bad , but the series still was the best,' But that doesn't wash with me. The entire thing has to work other wise it just fails. It's like saying 'The operation was a success but the patient died.'
While the first few quibbles are mearly personal preference, and i can see how other people might not be so put off by the the last two episodes i defy anyone to explain.

 

[Ark]

We're gonna have to disagree

Actually I'm withdrawing that statement because it's a copout.

And Ark - it was very present right from the beginning.

This is incorrect. In the episodes before the Christmas one (ep 8 ) there is no real indication that Haruka has any feelings for Ayato. Choosing clothes for him and blushing when he grabs her to stop her falling into the water is pretty standard anime stuff and certainly doesn't serve as indicator of any 13 year long obsession she's had.

 

[Noratav]

I have to agree with Paul here. I really don't recognise your description of RahXephon as being the same show I saw. Whilst I agree that Rahxephon has too many characters, most of whom aren't that interesting, the rest of the criticisms you level against the show are just plain wrong. Rahxephon is ultimately a love story wih mecha in it. It is clearly about the relationships each of the different characters have to each other, together which create the theme. The show might not spell the theme out explicitly, but it's clearly there in the background governing the relationships between the characters.

As for Haruka's crush on Ayato, it's clearly there. It's quite true that all the signs others have mentioned are standard anime stuff, after all they're standard anime indicators that a person has some sort of feelings for the other. Taken individually they might not represent that, but there are so many of them that it's almost impossible to ignore. Combined with the knowledge that Haruka once did love Ayato, which becomes blatantly obvious surprisingly early on, I really can't see how your arguments can be true.

Incidentally, I will say this about RahXephon. It took me a very long time to work out the theme of the show and how each episode related to it. I could see a theme was there, but I wasn't sure what it was. A large part of that is keeping track of the large cast, but for most of the show I wasn't really totally sure of the plot. I enjoyed the show immensely despite that, but it's exceptionally rare for that to happen to me.

 

[Noratav]

I really disagree with a number of points that you make here. I hope in point in the point of answering them, I'll meet your challenge. The one that really stuck out to me was this one though.

Character progression - coming full circle is not progression, neither is going backwards. And as for the ending, death may be easier to write but it's no where near as satisfying as emotional maturation.

The fact you clearly have no clue what's going on in the final episode might explain why you state this, but you are balatantly wrong here. It is perfectly clear that at the very end of the final episode Shinji resolves his emotional issues. That's the whole point of episode 26 - it shows Shinji inside his head getting over the issues which Anno diagnoses in episode 25. To say more than that would require a scene by scene analysis of the episode which I cannot be bothered to do. You are meant to infer that all the other characters go through a similar sequence, but we don't see those because of time constraints. The characters don't die, despite the result of the human instrumentality project, they continue to live. Which brings me on to your next point.

Human Instrumentality project- moving humanity to the next stage of evolution ... yeah... if you say so. First while it was mentioned a lot it was never really explained much beyond that. Had something to do with the foetus like thing in Gendo's hand, and 'Adam' i think, oh and Lillth (the weird thing in the basement on the cross). But it was never really explained what it was. Now after finishing it read many article about eva in a number of sources and no two agree oh what the **** it is.
Moreover why did they leave this monumental action in the hands (or mind) of a 14 yr old kid i wouldn't leave in charge of a popcorn stand, and in no way try and condition the child to make sure he makes the 'right' decision. What ever Seele though that should be.
Also did they ever look up evolution in dictionary? Evolution is a reaction to external influences, not something you or any individual can do. But I'm a biologist and kinda nit picky about things like that.

To be fair, what the human instrumentality project actually is, isn't explicitly explained, this is particularly true of the TV series. The how isn't particularly well explained - but it involves some sort of union between Adam and Lillith with Lillith being Rei. Ultimately though the goal of Human Instrumentality Project is obvious in End of Eva - third impact, but with SEELE in control. Gendo also wants the same thing, but with himself in control. In both endings, the third impact actually happens and everyone becomes part of Rei. What that entails, and the effects it has are explained through the strange sequences seen during both endings, which are meant to reflect what's going on inside everyone's head. That's a necessity of the plot, given that the effects of the HIP are primarily pyschological. HIP is designed to rectify the pyschological problems the characters have experienced by addressing the root cause of the problem, as explained in episode 25. I'm not going to bother arguing with you being picky of the meaning of the term evolution except to say that for most people HIP is an external influence on them and a major one. Only one person controls it, in the series thats Gendo and in the movie thats Shinji.

I really can't be bothered to address your comments about the series pacing, I may do another time.[/spoiler]

 

[Ark]

I have to agree with Paul here. I really don't recognise your description of RahXephon as being the same show I saw. Whilst I agree that Rahxephon has too many characters, most of whom aren't that interesting, the rest of the criticisms you level against the show are just plain wrong. Rahxephon is ultimately a love story wih mecha in it. It is clearly about the relationships each of the different characters have to each other, together which create the theme. The show might not spell the theme out explicitly, but it's clearly there in the background governing the relationships between the characters.

Love on its own isn't a theme though. It has to be coming from an angle. I'm not a film or literature student so I don't have the relevant vocab to describe this clearly but the presence of something doesn't make it a theme. Infact I'd say that love isn't really a theme at all unless a certain view is being provided of it. In the same way I'd say that "war" on its own couldn't be a theme.

As for Haruka's crush on Ayato, it's clearly there. It's quite true that all the signs others have mentioned are standard anime stuff, after all they're standard anime indicators that a person has some sort of feelings for the other. Taken individually they might not represent that, but there are so many of them that it's almost impossible to ignore. Combined with the knowledge that Haruka once did love Ayato, which becomes blatantly obvious surprisingly early on, I really can't see how your arguments can be true.

In the first two episodes there's no indication at all that Haruka feels anything for Ayato whether recent or long term. Just look at how cocky she is in the subway. The point is that their relationship (in both directions) isn't a normal relationship. They do the whole girl blushing on the back of the bike thing in FMP Fumoffu as well but the difference is that doesn't involve a deranged 13 year long obsession. I've noticed that no one is taking issue with my statement about the nature of the relationship in general rather than how it was executed by the writers.

 

[hopeful_monster]

Love on its own isn't a theme though. It has to be coming from an angle.

Love isn't the theme, the themes (plural) are about love. the main was is what you will do for the one you love. To get them, to keep them safe, to keep them happy Ayato sacrifices his humanity for Haruka sacrifices everything (time joining Terra, body to Isshiki, and life at the end), Megumi puts others love and happiness before her own etc.

In the first two episodes there's no indication at all that Haruka feels anything for Ayato whether recent or long term. Just look at how cocky she is in the subway. The point is that their relationship (in both directions) isn't a normal relationship. They do the whole girl blushing on the back of the bike thing in FMP Fumoffu as well but the difference is that doesn't involve a deranged 13 year long obsession. I've noticed that no one is taking issue with my statement about the nature of the relationship in general rather than how it was executed by the writers.

Ark, I know its kind of a personal question but have you ever been in love? Asking because if you haven't it may explain why you have trouble seeing what the rest of us see. I see nothing wrong two consenting adults having a relationship. As for the 13 year 'obsession' as you put it, well this is more difficult to explain if you haven't been there.
First you can't just switch off any feelings you have, and she couldn't for Ayato. They became a part of her and influenced her personally and her goals, hence joining TERRA, etc.
Why did it seem like they were meeting for the first time at the subway station? Cause they were, she was a different person to he met 3 years ago, and he had had his memory rewritten. She was 'cocky' as she was trying to make a good first impression. Rescuing him, saying she was a champion of justice, etc. The 'older women' comment probably stung a bit. The reason she didn't say much more was cause anything like the truth would have him reaching for the straight jacket.
You have twice dismissed the hints we've mentioned as 'standard gender tension anime antics', and as Noratav said they imply attraction. Now the reason they were not as overt as you think may have been because she was rediscovering her feelings. The last 13 yrs she has been devoloed towards finding Ayato again, but she failed to work out what to do once she had found him. How do you approach some one you love, but who doesn't remember you and is 13 yrs your junior?

I really can't be bothered to address your comments about the series pacing, I may do another time.

My point generally about the general pacing and the last two episodes in particular was that the sections were not in keeping with the rest of the series. It felt like Robotech, 3 or 4 different series stuck together to make one. The last two episodes, which are supposed to be the climax of the series, the crowning glory, flopped like a jellyfish out of water, and while it may have provided the character development I thought the series lacked leaving it till the last episodes rarely is a good idea, and putting in such a difficult form to understand is also unhelpful.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you being picky of the meaning of the term evolution

Sorry, studied evolution and its effects for 3 yrs at uni. Overly picky about it. :roll:

 

[Ark]

Love isn't the theme, the themes (plural) are about love. the main was is what you will do for the one you love. To get them, to keep them safe, to keep them happy Ayato sacrifices his humanity for Haruka sacrifices everything (time joining Terra, body to Isshiki, and life at the end), Megumi puts others love and happiness before her own etc.

Again that's not a theme. It's just stuff that happens in the series. Ayato decides to fall in love with Haruka in the end and become one with the robot something it's not really clear he understands the implications of. He just does it. In other words its not developed. It doesn't provide any insight into anything. I don't understand what you're supposed to take from that.

Ark, I know its kind of a personal question but have you ever been in love?

Being in love is a subjective thing. I can't claim to have been in love any more than I can claim to have found God. I've had close relationships with the opposite sex if that's what you mean. Anyway it isn't that important as any situation I've (or anyone else) been in is highly unlikely to share any similarities with what we're talking about.

I see nothing wrong two consenting adults having a relationship.

I didn't say it was wrong or right though I'd guess that if the genders were reversed it would seem more disturbing. Would you trust a 30 year old man who wanted to date your 17 year old daughter? My point is that it isn't believeable in a general sense and they don't even try to make it more believeable by developing the relationship. I've said before if you actually look Ayato and Haruka spend very little time together in the series. I felt half way through that the writers had just got bored with that thread (I knew they'd end up together from AMV's).

As for the 13 year 'obsession' as you put it, well this is more difficult to explain if you haven't been there.

Been where? The situation involved isn't very likely.

Why did it seem like they were meeting for the first time at the subway station? Cause they were, she was a different person to he met 3 years ago, and he had had his memory rewritten. She was 'cocky' as she was trying to make a good first impression. Rescuing him, saying she was a champion of justice, etc. The 'older women' comment probably stung a bit. The reason she didn't say much more was cause anything like the truth would have him reaching for the straight jacket.

I'm not questioning her not revealing the truth. The point is she doesn't have any reaction at all. This doesn't match up with the the claim that she's been thinking of him for 13 years. She either has or she hasn't. It can't be that she's had this huge obsession but there's no emotional stimuli behind it.

 

[Ramadahl]

And Ark - it was very present right from the beginning.

This is incorrect. In the episodes before the Christmas one (ep 8 ) there is no real indication that Haruka has any feelings for Ayato. Choosing clothes for him and blushing when he grabs her to stop her falling into the water is pretty standard anime stuff and certainly doesn't serve as indicator of any 13 year long obsession she's had.

Um, well, not straight away, no. It just serves as a small indicator, and they build up from that.

My point generally about the general pacing and the last two episodes in particular was that the sections were not in keeping with the rest of the series. It felt like Robotech, 3 or 4 different series stuck together to make one. The last two episodes, which are supposed to be the climax of the series, the crowning glory, flopped like a jellyfish out of water, and while it may have provided the character development I thought the series lacked leaving it till the last episodes rarely is a good idea, and putting in such a difficult form to understand is also unhelpful.

It's true that they were out of keeping with the rest of the series, but I don't think that's a bad thing per se. Also, the last two episdoes didn't "provide the character development" - they were the culmination of the character development that went on throughout the series. As to being difficult to understand, I think that's more of a subjective statement.

Love isn't the theme, the themes (plural) are about love. the main was is what you will do for the one you love. To get them, to keep them safe, to keep them happy Ayato sacrifices his humanity for Haruka sacrifices everything (time joining Terra, body to Isshiki, and life at the end), Megumi puts others love and happiness before her own etc.

All this talk of what is or isn't a theme is losing me a bit... sooo... theme. From that, as far as I can tell what hopeful_monster was saying in the quote qualifies on the first point, and even just saying "love is the theme" qualifies on the second (although it's a little weak just saying it like that).

My point is that it isn't believeable in a general sense and they don't even try to make it more believeable by developing the relationship. I've said before if you actually look Ayato and Haruka spend very little time together in the series.

I kinda agree with you in that they should have spent more time developing the relationship, it did fall a little flat when they hardly ever spent any time together.

Why did it seem like they were meeting for the first time at the subway station? Cause they were, she was a different person to he met 3 years ago, and he had had his memory rewritten. She was 'cocky' as she was trying to make a good first impression. Rescuing him, saying she was a champion of justice, etc. The 'older women' comment probably stung a bit. The reason she didn't say much more was cause anything like the truth would have him reaching for the straight jacket.

I'm not questioning her not revealing the truth. The point is she doesn't have any reaction at all. This doesn't match up with the the claim that she's been thinking of him for 13 years. She either has or she hasn't. It can't be that she's had this huge obsession but there's no emotional stimuli behind it.

Um... so, you have a problem with her reaction (or lack thereof) at meeting him for the "first time" (if I'm reading this right)? It seemed ok to me... what sort of reaction would you have considered more appropriate?

 

[Ark]

Um, well, not straight away, no. It just serves as a small indicator, and they build up from that.

Accept they don't really. As you said;

I kinda agree with you in that they should have spent more time developing the relationship, it did fall a little flat when they hardly ever spent any time together.

Since this is an Eva vs Rah thread let's draw a comparison. Asuka and Shinji's relationship is not the central plot thread in Eva even though it does become more significant in the film. Look how much development was put into it though. Not only was time spent on it but it developed clearly and believeably. I completely understood how they felt about eachother in the end and why. Yet Haruka really isn't in the show that much at all and her interaction with Ayato is very thinly spread. You can't do that and then turn their "deep" relationship into the central part of the story.

Um... so, you have a problem with her reaction (or lack thereof) at meeting him for the "first time" (if I'm reading this right)? It seemed ok to me... what sort of reaction would you have considered more appropriate?

Well look at how she is later in the series and compare. Let's be honest though we know why she doesn't give much of a reaction. Plot contrivance. We're supposed to be suprised when it's revealed that she's his old girl friend. In the film that scene is done much more believeably, with the assumption by the writers I'd guess that anyone watching has probably seen the series.

 

[hopeful_monster]

Again that's not a theme.

How can you say that it isn't a theme if you CAN'T SEE IT. I think we have hit upon the main reason you didn't enjoy this series as much as everyone else. If you can't see the love story (the main theme of the show) everything else doesn't work. While there is comedy, action and drama there are series that are more focused on the other genre's.

Ayato decides to fall in love with Haruka in the end and become one with the robot something it's not really clear he understands the implications of. He just does it.

He doesn't 'decide' to fall for her, that's the problem with love it has very little to do with choice of who, the only real choices you have are what to do next . And the reason he becomes one with the 'robot' even though he doesn't really know what it'll do to him is to protect the one he loves.

Being in love is a subjective thing. I can't claim to have been in love any more than I can claim to have found God. I've had close relationships with the opposite sex if that's what you mean.

I'll take that as a no then, especially after your comment about 'deciding to fall in love'.

though I'd guess that if the genders were reversed it would seem more disturbing. Would you trust a 30 year old man who wanted to date your 17 year old daughter?

Depends on what he was after her for and if he had proved his devotion for her. Haruka isn't in for the sex, or to satisfy any ego, she just wants to be with him. Also Ayato's father Watari, if you didn't work it out doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

I've said before if you actually look Ayato and Haruka spend very little time together in the series.

What is 6 months not enough? By the time he returns to TJ in vol.4 he's spent 6 months outside, living, working and relaxing with Haruka and company. While most is off screen you see them eating together, going to the beach or into town for food and shopping. You saying nothing happened off screen?

As for the 13 year 'obsession' as you put it, well this is more difficult to explain if you haven't been there.

Been where? The situation involved isn't very likely.

13 year time shift? No, but loving some one who doesn't love you, or even know you exist? Been there, done that, got the frequent flier miles.

The point is she doesn't have any reaction at all. This doesn't match up with the the claim that she's been thinking of him for 13 years. She either has or she hasn't. It can't be that she's had this huge obsession but there's no emotional stimuli behind it.

Huh? She does we've pointed this out, what she doesn't do is come on too strong. She plays it cool so as not to scare him off. She is an intelligence agent, there for she must be fairly good at controlling her emotions.

 

[Ark]

How can you say that it isn't a theme if you CAN'T SEE IT.

I clearly can see it as is obvious I just don't buy it.

He doesn't 'decide' to fall for her, that's the problem with love it has very little to do with choice of who,

I mean there's no build up to it.

Depends on what he was after her for and if he had proved his devotion for her.

Oh give me a break. Are you sure you're a biologist?

Haruka isn't in for the sex,

Well actually in the film she is.

What is 6 months not enough? By the time he returns to TJ in vol.4 he's spent 6 months outside, living, working and relaxing with Haruka and company. While most is off screen you see them eating together, going to the beach or into town for food and shopping. You saying nothing happened off screen?

I'm not talking months I'm talking about how close their relationship is portrayed by the writers. I think I made this point quite clear with the Eva comparison.

No, but loving some one who doesn't love you, or even know you exist? Been there, done that, got the frequent flier miles.

I was referring to the obession. You didn't say anything about unreciprocated love. You said I couldn't understand the 13 year long obsession unless I'd been there.

Huh? She does we've pointed this out, what she doesn't do is come on too strong. She plays it cool so as not to scare him off. She is an intelligence agent, there for she must be fairly good at controlling her emotions.

I'd don't think I can make this point any clearer.She's either been emotionally attached to a memory for 13 years that's been motivating her actions or she hasn't. If that is the case then intelligence agent or not that scene just isn't believeable or the rest of her early interactions with him.

 

[Ramadahl]

Um, well, not straight away, no. It just serves as a small indicator, and they build up from that.

Accept they don't really. As you said;

I kinda agree with you in that they should have spent more time developing the relationship, it did fall a little flat when they hardly ever spent any time together.

Uh, they do build up on it, just not nearly as much as I think they should've done.

Since this is an Eva vs Rah thread let's draw a comparison. Asuka and Shinji's relationship is not the central plot thread in Eva even though it does become more significant in the film. Look how much development was put into it though. Not only was time spent on it but it developed clearly and believeably. I completely understood how they felt about eachother in the end and why. Yet Haruka really isn't in the show that much at all and her interaction with Ayato is very thinly spread. You can't do that and then turn their "deep" relationship into the central part of the story.

In short... yes, I agree with you totally. Mind you, I'd say that the characterisation is pretty much the strongest part of Eva, so comparing it directly to any other show will leave most of them in the dust.

Um... so, you have a problem with her reaction (or lack thereof) at meeting him for the "first time" (if I'm reading this right)? It seemed ok to me... what sort of reaction would you have considered more appropriate?

Well look at how she is later in the series and compare. Let's be honest though we know why she doesn't give much of a reaction. Plot contrivance. We're supposed to be suprised when it's revealed that she's his old girl friend. In the film that scene is done much more believeably, with the assumption by the writers I'd guess that anyone watching has probably seen the series.

Well, I guess I'd agree that plot contrivance was involved to an extent to make the big reveal all the more shocking, but I still think her reaction makes sense... I'll try to break it down...

First off, although Haruka wants to get back together with Ayato she knows him well enough to know that if she comes on strong he'll probably reject her. I figured her plan was to act as if it wasn't anything special, then slowly they could becomes friends with one another, etc., like how they first met. Only when he doesn't act with her like he used to does she become more desperate.

Still, that's just how I seem to recall reading the situation retrospectively, and given that the one and only time I watched RahXephon was in the early hours of a Saturday morning 4 years ago, some details may have been clouded over with time.

 

[Ark]

Uh, they do build up on it, just not nearly as much as I think they should've done.

How do they build it up?

In short... yes, I agree with you totally. Mind you, I'd say that the characterisation is pretty much the strongest part of Eva, so comparing it directly to any other show will leave most of them in the dust.

Like I said though Asuka-Shinji is a minor part of Eva whereas Ayato-Haruka is the central part of RahXephon.

First off, although Haruka wants to get back together with Ayato she knows him well enough to know that if she comes on strong he'll probably reject her. I figured her plan was to act as if it wasn't anything special, then slowly they could becomes friends with one another, etc., like how they first met. Only when he doesn't act with her like he used to does she become more desperate.

I don't really see any evidence for that.

 

[Ramadahl]

How do they build it up?

...
Their relationship is developed every time they're in a scene together?

I don't really see any evidence for that.

Uh, well, there isn't any explicitly stated - that was just my rationalization of the events after the fact. It holds together solely on the basis that it's a rather simple explanation (Occams razor ftw), and is consistent with what we know of the characters. Ultimately if you don't like this explanation that's fine, I was just presenting an alternative.

 

[Ark]

...
Their relationship is developed every time they're in a scene together?

Can I have some examples? I recall what interaction there was between them being quite disjointed. Much more so than the interaction between Megumi and Ayato.

It would be interesting to measure how much time they actually spend talking together.