RahXephon VS Evangelion Thread

[Duskin]

To be honest they both make me sick.

If I'd had to choose one, it be Eva. Don't you just love penguins, more than enough of a good reason.

 

[hopeful_monster]

To be honest they both make me sick.

If I'd had to choose one, it be Eva. Don't you just love penguins, more than enough of a good reason.

Do you want him Ark or can I have him?

 

[Tasker]

As a neutral party on this one, I say... Both of you sic 'im. :twisted:

 

[Ark]

I don't care if people love or hate Eva but I will respond if people make stupid statements about it. If someone said they thought Digimon was on the same level or better than Eva I'd do the same thing.

 

[CitizenGeek]

I don't think there's anything wrong with what Ark is doing - this is a forum and discussion and debate should be encouraged rather than labeled as "fanboi trolling".

 

[Tasker]

Neither do I on the whole, and like i've said before, I like a little lighthearted banter. :wink:

Sometimes people may like one thing more than another or maybe even like two things to the same degree, it's possible some people may not agree with them and say so, which is fair enough. As the saying goes - if we all liked the same thing, the world would be a boring place.

But when it gets out of hand and starts to turn patronising and insulting, which let's face it, Arks comments have been known to on occasion, that's when phrases like 'fanboi trolling' get used wether they're meant seriously or not. :?

 

[Ark]

I'm not a fanboi though in any sense. I haven't watched Eva for a year. I don't own any merchandise other than the dvds. Plus I don't own the platinum tin like someone else. I'm just a very critical person in general. Mark Kermode is like an idol to me. Speaking of which I know this is totally off topic but I just have to show this to everyone.

Getting back on topic. I challenge anyone to claim that the love story in RahXephon is different to how I described it and explain why.

 

[hopeful_monster]

I'm not a fanboi though in any sense. I haven't watched Eva for a year. I don't own any merchandise other than the dvds. Plus I don't own the platinum tin like someone else. I'm just a very critical person in general.

:? Yet you defend Eva like a samurai protecting his honour. If you haven't watched Eva in a year went did you last watch Rahxephon?

Getting back on topic. I challenge anyone to claim that the love story in RahXephon is different to how I described it and explain why.

Two reasons why I haven't give a proper reply. 1st is that I've been working away from a computer and have only had time to duck into the forums. 2nd almost finished a reply (down to last point) and computer wiped response ARRGH !!

I'm not going to waste time proving that Eva is better than RahXephon because it's much quicker to prove that RahXephon is just plain bad.

That route isn't debate or proof of Eva's superiority. It's mud slinging. You could use that idea to say that Panda Z or VR Troopers (or any other series) is superior. If anything it weakens your argument.

Too many characters and as a result no character development or at least strange character development. Example; They spend the entire fifth episode developing a character who has minimal importance in the show.

While Rahxephon has a larger cast than most, it by no means has too many (watch Infinite Ryvius, 33+ recurring characters). It if anything is more realistic than most anime which seem to have. While the tertiary and quaternary characters have little development as normal there is a larger number of secondary characters all of which get their moments and change and develop as the series goes. A for Kim's episode while it did develop her character it was also used to high light the fact that the Great Mu War was still fresh and raw in people's minds, rather than something in ancient history as Second impact seemed to be to the characters in Eva

The "love story" is totally ridiculous and unbelievable. Not only that it isn't even handled well. There is barely any build up to it and so some early events even contradict the premise it is built on. It comes almost completely out of nowhere.

WHERE WE WATCHING THE SAME SHOW? Saw signs of the love story in the 1st DVD ( eg Haruka's expressions especially went Ayato rejected her), until the 4th and 5th Volume where they the signs were 60 foot high blinking neon sights and your eye's were wired open as in Clockwork Orange.

Similarly too many sub-plots which weren't developed sufficiently. It felt like they were trying to cram in as much as possible. Certain parts of it such as Asahina's death felt totally forced.

As opposed to Evangelion where all the sub-plots are neatly wrapped up with a pretty little bow. Sarcasm aside a lot of the sub-plots were developed in a way that you had to piece things together to get, for example Ayato's dad. While there wasn't a monologue explaining it, from various conversations you can piece together who he is and what happened to him.
As for Asahina, her final episode and death is one of my all time favourites. The only reason it might have felt forced is if you thing Ayato reciprocated her romantic feelings. I believe he did not, but he did feel responsibility towards her as he took her from her work into his, as well as a huge amount of empathy towards her as they had had similar revelations about their 'heritage' and education. There are scenes from both the movie and light novels which help highlight their relationship.

The Mysteries were far too complex too care about and their solutions were uninteresting.

Two words 'Pot' and 'Kettle'

No themes are explored in the show at all despite the fact that it seeks to present itself as being very mature and sophisticated with all the jazz and classical music. It's complete image over substance. There's no way you should have a right to play Wagner right at the start before any situation or mood has been established.

There are lots of theme, ideas and commentary in the show, however it may not be evident as some of the themes are more specific to Japanese than universal, and some of the imagery and motif's used are less well know than ones used in Eva or require certain knowledge to 'get'. An example of the former is Tokyo Jupiter, which at first seems like simply a reversal of the standard 'Tokyo gets whacked' first scenario then seeming reverts to 'Tokyo gets whacked', but also makes commentary about the fact that Tokyo is separated from the rest of Japan, and seeming been invaded by a alien culture (America). There is also the running theme of various religions in Japan, with very Confucian thinking and people still practising Shino beliefs, while Christianity is reduced to a very secular Christmas and a ruined church. The Latter can be shown in the use of Surrealist pictures and imagery, as Surrealist believed that art should show the subconscious unfettered by reason or logic (hence why the young Haruka kept appearing in Ayato's art, despite all memory of her was supposed to be wiped away, and why Rieka (Ixtli, Ayato's true hearts's desire) looked like the young Haruka ). These are just two examples of many themes and use of imagery but unless you know about Japanese social feelings or Study the surrealist movement (or have access to wikipedia :roll: ) it may seem like Rahxephon is barren of them.

 

[Ark]

:? Yet you defend Eva like a samurai protecting his honour. If you haven't watched Eva in a year went did you last watch Rahxephon?

September

That route isn't debate or proof of Eva's superiority. It's mud slinging. You could use that idea to say that Panda Z or VR Troopers (or any other series) is superior. If anything it weakens your argument.

My point is that most people here are saying they thought Eva was good so I only really have to convince them that RahXephon is bad.

While Rahxephon has a larger cast than most, it by no means has too many (watch Infinite Ryvius, 33+ recurring characters). It if anything is more realistic than most anime which seem to have.

I'm not sure you've said exactly what you want to say here.

While the tertiary and quaternary characters have little development as normal there is a larger number of secondary characters all of which get their moments and change and develop as the series goes. A for Kim's episode while it did develop her character it was also used to high light the fact that the Great Mu War was still fresh and raw in people's minds, rather than something in ancient history as Second impact seemed to be to the characters in Eva

I'm not really sure this arguing against my point.

WHERE WE WATCHING THE SAME SHOW? Saw signs of the love story in the 1st DVD ( eg Haruka's expressions especially went Ayato rejected her), until the 4th and 5th Volume where they the signs were 60 foot high blinking neon sights and your eye's were wired open as in Clockwork Orange.

Can you please try spelling better as I can't fully understand the point you're trying to make? I don't remember any rejection in the first dvd. Wouldn't that have to involve one of them expressing feelings for the other? What I do remember is her acting like she'd never met him before during the subway scene which isn't really consistant with the fact she's supposedly had this 13 year long obession with him despite only knowing for possibly less than a year when they were teenagers. Plus the way he decides that he's in love with her at the end is totally unbelievable considering that they actually spend very little time together in the series (infact Haruka actually has very little screen time considering the importance of her character).

As opposed to Evangelion where all the sub-plots are neatly wrapped up with a pretty little bow.

There aren't many sub-plots in Eva really.

Sarcasm aside a lot of the sub-plots were developed in a way that you had to piece things together to get, for example Ayato's dad. While there wasn't a monologue explaining it, from various conversations you can piece together who he is and what happened to him.

There was so little time spent on him that I didn't care who he was which goes back to my point about the number of characters. I don't even remember his name.

As for Asahina, her final episode and death is one of my all time favourites. The only reason it might have felt forced is if you thing Ayato reciprocated her romantic feelings. I believe he did not, but he did feel responsibility towards her as he took her from her work into his, as well as a huge amount of empathy towards her as they had had similar revelations about their 'heritage' and education. There are scenes from both the movie and light novels which help highlight their relationship.

My main problem with it was that she'd hardly been in the series and then they turn her death into an epic event. They hadn't built up enough dramatic credibility.

There are lots of theme, ideas and commentary in the show, however it may not be evident as some of the themes are more specific to Japanese than universal, and some of the imagery and motif's used are less well know than ones used in Eva or require certain knowledge to 'get'. An example of the former is Tokyo Jupiter, which at first seems like simply a reversal of the standard 'Tokyo gets whacked' first scenario then seeming reverts to 'Tokyo gets whacked', but also makes commentary about the fact that Tokyo is separated from the rest of Japan, and seeming been invaded by a alien culture (America). There is also the running theme of various religions in Japan, with very Confucian thinking and people still practising Shino beliefs, while Christianity is reduced to a very secular Christmas and a ruined church. The Latter can be shown in the use of Surrealist pictures and imagery, as Surrealist believed that art should show the subconscious unfettered by reason or logic (hence why the young Haruka kept appearing in Ayato's art, despite all memory of her was supposed to be wiped away, and why Rieka (Ixtli, Ayato's true hearts's desire) looked like the young Haruka ). These are just two examples of many themes and use of imagery but unless you know about Japanese social feelings or Study the surrealist movement (or have access to wikipedia :roll: ) it may seem like Rahxephon is barren of them.

My God and they say that fans over analyse Eva (which they do). I don't buy any of that. Are seriously trying to tell me that RahXephon is about the effect of Christianity of Japan. Some of the things you mentioned are iconography anyway not themes. A theme would be something like the nature of love or morality in warfare.

 

[Sy]

I'm gonna side step these essays and just say that I watched Eva through front start to finish withing a couple of weeks and enjoyed it. I watched only about half of RahXephon and lost inerest. On a second attempt to watch it I lost interest again but a lot sooner.

 

[Ark]

I watched only about half of RahXephon and lost inerest.

If that included ep15 I can pretty much guess why.

Personally I watched it first during nights over a period of about 2 weeks. Thought it was crap but conceded I may have been too tired to appreciate it. Then I marathoned it in one day and found it was still crap.

 

[Paul]

I watched only about half of RahXephon and lost inerest.

If that included ep15 I can pretty much guess why.

You mean this name making episode from Mitsuo Iso? I can't remember much from it (only seen RahXephon once, back in 2004, and enjoyed it immensely), but given the eclectic art style and talent involved, I'm tempted to go back and check it out.

 

[Ark]

I watched only about half of RahXephon and lost inerest.

If that included ep15 I can pretty much guess why.

You mean this name making episode from Mitsuo Iso? I can't remember much from it (only seen RahXephon once, back in 2004, and enjoyed it immensely), but given the eclectic art style and talent involved, I'm tempted to go back and check it out.

Yes. Again I don't care what the stuff looks like.

 

[Paul]

I watched only about half of RahXephon and lost inerest.

If that included ep15 I can pretty much guess why.

You mean this name making episode from Mitsuo Iso? I can't remember much from it (only seen RahXephon once, back in 2004, and enjoyed it immensely), but given the eclectic art style and talent involved, I'm tempted to go back and check it out.

Yes. Again I don't care what the stuff looks like.

Why are you watching anime then? I find it hard to believe that you "don't care" given this is a visual medium that uses visual technique as a form of story telling. If you discard or ignore that style, you also lose out in terms of story telling, which incidentally, exposes a fatal flaw in your critique - after all, maybe you failed you grasp Ayato and Haruka's romance because you didn't pick up on the blatant visual body language?

 

[Sy]

No actually I think it was around episode twelve or thirteen. I didn't really stop watching it because I thought it was particularly bad because from what I remember it wasn't. It just didn't seem to hold my interest and I moved on to other series.

 

[Ark]

I watched only about half of RahXephon and lost inerest.

If that included ep15 I can pretty much guess why.

You mean this name making episode from Mitsuo Iso? I can't remember much from it (only seen RahXephon once, back in 2004, and enjoyed it immensely), but given the eclectic art style and talent involved, I'm tempted to go back and check it out.

Yes. Again I don't care what the stuff looks like.

Why are you watching anime then? I find it hard to believe that you "don't care" given this is a visual medium that uses visual technique as a form of story telling. If you discard or ignore that style, you also lose out in terms of story telling, which incidentally, exposes a fatal flaw in your critique - after all, maybe you failed you grasp Ayato and Haruka's romance because you didn't pick up on the blatant visual body language?

I meant I don't care what it looks like within reasonable limits. For example the fact that RahXephon has much better animation than Macross isn't an innately positive thing in my view.

 

[Paul]

* The "love story" is totally ridiculous and unbelieveable. Not only that it isn't even handled well. There is barely any build up to it and so some early events even contradict the premise it is built on. It comes almost completely out of nowhere.

I do think this point is fundamentally wrong. It definitely builds up over the series. I really loved that aspect of RahXephon. I've only seen this series once, but I still remember Haruka giving her gloves to Ayato; the kind of embarrassed look on her face in that scene immediately caught my attention. That one little moment was fantastic.

* Similarly too many subplots which weren't developed sufficiently. It felt like they were trying to cram in as much as possible. Certain parts of it such as Asahina's death felt totally forced.

Her death was supposed to feel forced. It's a shocking moment that's encapsulated by some wonderful art direction; specifically, the electronic billboards flashing up with the romantic dialogue. This was definitely my favorite episode of RahXephon.

* The Mysteries were far too complex too care about and their solutions were uninteresting.

I probably agree with you on this point. The romance and the drama was so much more interesting than the sci-fi plot. That said, I thought the concept of "Tokyo Jupiter" was fascinating - I wish they spend more time exploring that and the way life and culture is different inside and out of the bubble.

* No themes are explored in the show at all despite the fact that it seeks to present itself as being very mature and sophisticated with all the jazz and classical music. It's complete image over substance. There's no way you should have a right to play Wagner right at the start before any situation or mood has been established.

The central theme is that of love; that it transcends time. And because such strong human emotion can swing in a moment from a sense of all-conquering glory to the end of the world, the soundtrack needs to emphasize that feeling of world affecting love. It's one of the better soundtracks I've heard - the OP and ED themes are especially good.

***

After saying all of that, I do think that Evangelion is the better series. The direction is strong, the characterization is absolutely gut-wrenching and the art direction is iconic; I absolutely adore Gainax's style, their use of colors and so on, their work just feels fun - even in a series lie Evangelion, it's so much more watchable because everything is so colorful and drenched in nostalgia. RahXephon is stiff in comparison, a bit of a one-trick pony; that doesn't mean it's bad, but Evangelion is rightly a milestone in anime.

 

[Ark]

I do think this point is fundamentally wrong. It definitely builds up over the series. I really loved that aspect of RahXephon. I've only seen this series once, but I still remember Haruka giving her gloves to Ayato; the kind of embarrassed look on her face in that scene immediately caught my attention. That one little moment was fantastic.

However this only starts later in the series. That doesn't correspond to what is supposedly going on. Plus like I said his attraction to her is completely baseless, unbelieveable and contrived. Also my point isn't just that the "love story" isn't handled well but that the premise itself is ridiculous.

Her death was supposed to feel forced. It's a shocking moment that's encapsulated by some wonderful art direction; specifically, the electronic billboards flashing up with the romantic dialogue. This was definitely my favorite episode of RahXephon.

You're proving my point. It's image over substance. The Overfiend films have cute girls with little background being ripped apart as well.

The central theme is that of love; that it transcends time. And because such strong human emotion can swing in a moment from a sense of all-conquering glory to the end of the world, the soundtrack needs to emphasize that feeling of world affecting love. It's one of the better soundtracks I've heard - the OP and ED themes are especially good.

That isn't a theme. That's just something that happens in the series. For it to be a theme it would have to be more promenantly explored. However even if were a theme I'd say it was totally fatuous in the way it's presented by the show thereby making it redundant.

 

[Paul]

I do think this point is fundamentally wrong. It definitely builds up over the series. I really loved that aspect of RahXephon. I've only seen this series once, but I still remember Haruka giving her gloves to Ayato; the kind of embarrassed look on her face in that scene immediately caught my attention. That one little moment was fantastic.

However this only starts later in the series. That doesn't correspond to what is supposedly going on. Plus like I said his attraction to her is completely baseless, unbelieveable and contrived. Also my point isn't just that the "love story" isn't handled well but that the premise itself is ridiculous.

Her death was supposed to feel forced. It's a shocking moment that's encapsulated by some wonderful art direction; specifically, the electronic billboards flashing up with the romantic dialogue. This was definitely my favorite episode of RahXephon.

You're proving my point. It's image over substance. The Overfiend films have cute girls with little background being ripped apart as well.

The central theme is that of love; that it transcends time. And because such strong human emotion can swing in a moment from a sense of all-conquering glory to the end of the world, the soundtrack needs to emphasize that feeling of world affecting love. It's one of the better soundtracks I've heard - the OP and ED themes are especially good.

That isn't a theme. That's just something that happens in the series. For it to be a theme it would have to be more promenantly explored. However even if were a theme I'd say it was totally fatuous in the way it's presented by the show thereby making it redundant.

The theme of love wasn't prominently explored in RahXephon? The whole thing is rife with romance, all of the characters are in love with each other; it's a series about what love will make you do. Have a think about the way all the characters act in RahXephon - all of them are motivated by love in some way or another.

"image over substance"? I've already made this point - the image IS the substance because this is a visual medium. RahXephon creates several lasting images - given I'm writing all of this from my memories of 2004. And no, it isn't all about the image, it's about what you infer from you what see.

And finally, complaining about a ridiculous premise? How about this - a depressed boy trying to save the world in a robot that's possessed by the soul of his dead mother. Everything about anime, to a certain degree, is ridiculous. It seems like you're applying double standards simply to hate on RahXephon. As far as I can see it, your problem comes from the fact that you aren't feeling something the rest of us are - so maybe that's more to do with you than any perceived failing of RahXephon itself.

 

[hopeful_monster]

What I do remember is her acting like she'd never met him before during the subway scene which isn't really consistant with the fact she's supposedly had this 13 year long obession with him despite only knowing for possibly less than a year when they were teenagers.

What was she supposed to say

'' Hi, l'm your girlfriend from 3 years ago. You don't remember be cause you evil step mom re-engineered you memory cause she didn't like me. Why do I look twice your age? Oh that's be cause there is this weird time dilation thing to do with the absolute barrier system you step mom put up. I causes time inside to pass more slowly on the inside than on they outside.'

Yeah that's really going to inspire him to go way with her. Not run in the opposite direction screaming.
But that scene shows the start of hints of her relationship with him. As he runs onto the train with Reika and leaves the look on her face is not one of an intelligence officer who's lost her mark, but of something else.
Skip on to episode 3 where she ends up pick out his clothes after his fashion disaster, again would just an intelligence officer do that? Also you see him show some interest in her (even if it was just a quick perv while she was changing).
Next episode has a biggy. when Ayato says that people outside Tokyo seem to to think the people inside weren't human Haruka said 'You don't think i'm one of those people do you? then who cares what they think.' She cared a lot about what he felt about her.
The rejection in episode 5 was when they were going to take Ayato to his accomidation, Haruka reaches for his hand (a bit over familiar) and he jerks away then says 'don't touch me'. Haruka looks devastated by this.
All this was just in the 1st DVD, and while each individual bit wouldn't be a dead give away they all build up a picture hinting that there is more and more to their relationship than just intelligence officer and subject.
For a a sweet little AMV showing many of the scenes check out this one

here
Next time i have a few moments will address you other comments and make some about Eva.