Possible Missing Evolutionary Link!

[Ammish]

Muslims deny evolution, though. That makes them as bad, and as anti-science, as U.S. Evangelicals.

But Catholics were like that. It's just that Islam still stuck to their original text and refused to move on like Catholic has. But I strongly believe that they were all one religion anyway, just been broken up into fractions because of the 'next holy book'.

Islam isn't anti-science, more like anti-evolution. Otherwise, there are scientific methods which dates back to the usage by Islamic Scientist and Scholars.

 

[CitizenGeek]

Exactly, Catholics were like that. They got over it, they accepted science. Kudos to them (it's odd admiring an organization for accepting scientific fact, though), but Islam is denying science and therefore it is anti-science. Muslims overwhelmingly reject Darwin's theory for religious reasons, that's a bad thing.

 

[chaos]

Evolution is a theory, not a fact yet.

 

[CitizenGeek]

That the Earth rotates around the sun is technically a "theory" too. So it's reasonable to deny that as well?

 

[ayase]

Evolution is a theory, not a fact yet.

But then all religion is based on theories with even less evidence, so I guess that makes it even.

This is pretty exciting stuff though, the more we learn and prove / disprove the better off we are. Truth of the matter on denial of evolution is that it's an individual thing. It's pretty obvious there are some Catholics who don't believe it and some Muslims who do - it's not fair to tar all the members of one religion with the same brush.

 

[Ammish]

Exactly, Catholics were like that. They got over it, they accepted science. Kudos to them (it's odd admiring an organization for accepting scientific fact, though), but Islam is denying science and therefore it is anti-science. Muslims overwhelmingly reject Darwin's theory for religious reasons, that's a bad thing.

Oh ******* hell, at least call them by the correct term. Antiscience is a term to reject anything that can be explained by scientist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-science

They are anti-evolutionist, not anti-science. Otherwise, how can they be antiscience when muslim have explained aspect through science itself? The only thing they don't want to believe is: Evoltion.

Oh and: I have knowledge of imams in my area who are willing to accept evolution as one of God's tools. Sure, that's partly denying the Qu'ran. But then again, they also deny the rule that is 'you shouldn't live in a non-islamic state'.

But you, Citizengeek, should stop with the pointless stereotyping. There are always fractions of religion that will either wholeheart/abhor certain aspects.

 

[CitizenGeek]

I don't care if there are minute factions within Islam that accept evolution or within Catholicism that refute it. The official line of both major Islamic sects is that evolution is not true, and that creationism is. When someone rejects science because it's not compatible with their religion, then they are obviously being anti-science. Just because you know some people who are Muslims who are not blinded by their faith doesn't alter the fact that the overwhelming majority of Muslims brazenly reject scientific fact. Islam is a destructive, awful thing (more so than any other religion on Earth at this time) and the anti-science attitudes are just part of the reason it's so destructive.

 

[Ammish]

Again with the stereotype, Citizengeek. Yes, the official line is: Islam rejects evolution. But that does not mean that Muslim reject evolution.

You, Citizengeek, have never met a muslim (as far as I know from your past post), so all you can rely on is the glorious world of the internet and some ******** from news reporter.

Islam is a destructive, awful thing (more so than any other religion on Earth at this time) and the anti-science attitudes are just part of the reason it's so destructive.

...You do know that Catholic were as bad? We did have Catholic Terroism. Any religion is dangerous if you have violent, ignorant followers. And in today's case, Islam have ignorant followers.

But CG, stop stereotyping because you may know about the religion, but you know nothing about the followers. Try speaking to one or read the Qu'ran.

 

[CitizenGeek]

What are you talking about? I'm stereotyping Muslims by describing their official stance on evolution? I don't think so. I never said every single Muslim rejects science, but a great deal do and that's unacceptable.

I don't see how the Catholic comparison works either. Catholics may have done bad things in the past (and continue to do them to this day) but they've changed their stance on evolution and the church officially recognizes that the Bible is not literally true.

I have met Muslims - I go to a university in Dublin that has students from every background.

You seem to make out that I've only heard whisperings or innuendo about Muslims "probably" doubting evolution from the internet or from the news. It's official Islamic doctrine that adheres to the appallingly ignoring 'creationist', anti-science world view. Why is that so hard to understand? The polls listed on that Wiki entry (and backed up with references) show that clear majorities of people in Muslim countries don't believe in evolution.

I'm right, you're wrong.

 

[ayase]

Anti-science?

I'm stereotyping Muslims by describing their official stance on evolution?

Uh, you don't think that sentance itself is in any way stereotyping? Their official stance? Each person should be treated as an individual not lumped in with other people of their race / religion / nationality / whatever. Sure enough there are a lot of Muslims who's views I personally don't agree with, but there are a lot of non Muslims who's views I don't agree with either.

Not many people who've been brought up in a faith are likely to question or demand that official doctrine be changed. They're a lot more likely to just not follow their religion to the letter in their own personal lives, as a lot of professed Muslims, Catholics and others do. Most people who follow a religion are not the fundamentalist nutcases we see on TV - You could say they're still part of the problem by not being part of the solution, but given that everyone isn't likely to abandon their religion tomorrow I'd sooner encourage religious moderates than drive them to become fundamentalists by attacking their religion.

 

[Tachi]

Sorry but i'm taking CG's side on this.
in my opinion without being PC right now. Muslims are hypocritical of themselves in general. Their holy book is just as much bullsh*t as the bible. yet christians/catholics understand that science is just as important as faith. and thus use it.
and some muslims misinterpret their holy book sometimes and thats how problems start.
you've already said that the Qu'ran says that muslims shouldn't live in a non muslim country. yet they are in england?
they aren't allowed to eat non hallal meat. yet i see em in macdonalds eating a big mac....last time i checked macdonalds don't sell hallal meat. and their not allowed to drink or smoke...yet i see em down the pub and the muslims i went to highschool with smoked sheesha pipes....which is 5 times more harmful than normal smoking. so why can't they understand that evolution is just as likely as a god creating the world and everything with it.

I'm not against muslims in the entirety. infact i'm still mates with muslims i went to school with. but in many cases i find that in times they'll do whatever they want...and when someone says something about it...then scream their religion and faith at people. ofcorse, this is just an opinion being spoken aloud.

 

[ayase]

But that's partly what I mean Tach - A lot of people don't follow their faith to the letter but they don't make a big fuss about the fact that they don't. The British Muslims who enjoy a McDonalds (or believe in evolution) aren't likely to be the same ones who are stoning people to death in Saudi Arabia, but nor are they likely to shout about it from the rooftops (they're probably as scared of coming under attack from the fundamentalists in their own religion as other people are).

If someone is doing some things their faith tells them not to and then complaining when other people do the same then yeah, that's hypocritical, but I think it's safe to say that you can draw a pretty clear dividing line between radicals and moderates in any religion. I don't happen to think religion is good for people either, but it's fundamentalism (of any religion) which is the real enemy of science and society. Attacking moderate members of a religion just makes them feel under attack and makes them more likely to become radicals.

 

[chaos]

ROI is a catholic country. ROI allows homossexual civil marriage, AFAIK.

I believe that nothing illustrates the matter better than this the moderate side of the church will make it evolve, but in the end, just like in politics, it won't happen overnight. If church do not evolve, it loses it's followers with more progressive thinking. It's simple like that.

@CG - earth's rotation is not a theory, it's been photographically proved by sattelite photos. Initially it was theorized by changes in the star charts over the year (the reason why, it's been known from such ancient times).

I also do not believe any religion is destructive as you claim. I grew up under the same as a catholic mother, a shintoist father and spiritualist sisters. I was educated in a protestant high school. AND none of this is unnatural or unnusual in Brazil. Also part of the reason I felt so alien in Northern Ireland.

Me? I believe in God, but I din't find any religion to follow. I'm very inclined to Kardecism or Shintoism myself, but I'm not a follower.

 

[CitizenGeek]

Anti-science?

Do you and Chrono understand the concept of history or the past? Islamic science, centuries ago, was hugely productive. But now, as in these days, as in not centuries ago (is this starting to make sense?) Muslims reject any science that may contradict their faith. And this is unacceptable, as unacceptable as it is for Christian Evangelicals.

Uh, you don't think that sentance itself is in any way stereotyping? Their official stance? Each person should be treated as an individual not lumped in with other people of their race / religion / nationality / whatever. Sure enough there are a lot of Muslims who's views I personally don't agree with, but there are a lot of non Muslims who's views I don't agree with either.

Whoa, are you for real? If an individual chooses to be a Muslim, then that individual now belongs to a grouping of people. You're being incessantly pedantic and it's unhelpful. The official Islamic stance (irrespective of which sect we're talking about) is that evolution is an anti-religion lie. Are you seriously telling me that when a person joins an Islamic sect, they cannot be assumed to be supportive of this position?

That whole "oh, I don't agree with Muslims BUT I ALSO DON'T AGRRE WITH OTHER PEOPLE!" spiel is unnecessary. This argument isn't about the merits of Islam, it's specifically about the anti-science stance Muslims have taken.

but given that everyone isn't likely to abandon their religion tomorrow I'd sooner encourage religious moderates than drive them to become fundamentalists by attacking their religion.

So we shouldn't criticize idiocy like Islamic Creationism because Muslims might be offended?

Their holy book is just as much bullsh*t as the bible. yet christians/catholics understand that science is just as important as faith. and thus use it.

I appreciate the sentiment (that Islam is as much ******** as Christianity), but I disagree that you can say Christians are reasonable when it comes to science and Muslims are not. Very many Christians (particularly in the United States) reject evolution and think, just as Muslims do, that the world is only 6,000 years old (which makes it younger than the domestication of dogs, and human writing).

ROI is a catholic country. ROI allows homossexual civil marriage, AFAIK.

I believe that nothing illustrates the matter better than this the moderate side of the church will make it evolve, but in the end, just like in politics, it won't happen overnight. If church do not evolve, it loses it's followers with more progressive thinking. It's simple like that.

I assume you mean "Republic of Ireland"? My country does not, however, allow same sex couples access to marriage as of yet. I suppose a better example for your argument is Spain, where gay marriage is legal and the Catholic church is still very strong. In any case, the Catholic church ordered mass protests on Madrid the days before the Spanish socialists passed marriage equality. The support for the bill came from secular people (the majority of Spaniards are secular), not from very religious people.

 

[chaos]

ROI is a catholic country. ROI allows homossexual civil marriage, AFAIK.

I believe that nothing illustrates the matter better than this the moderate side of the church will make it evolve, but in the end, just like in politics, it won't happen overnight. If church do not evolve, it loses it's followers with more progressive thinking. It's simple like that.

I assume you mean "Republic of Ireland"? My country does not, however, allow same sex couples access to marriage as of yet. I suppose a better example for your argument is Spain, where gay marriage is legal and the Catholic church is still very strong. In any case, the Catholic church ordered mass protests on Madrid the days before the Spanish socialists passed marriage equality. The support for the bill came from secular people (the majority of Spaniards are secular), not from very religious people.

Should have got my facts right first. But although I stand corrected on Ireland, simply saying the bill passed because of the seculars sounds a bit ludicrous. Correct me if I'm wrong, but being secular does not means being an atheist altogether. My understanding is a secular is someone who believes in separation of politics and the church.

In other words, they could be all catholics for all that we know, but still let such a bill pass, which I believe is the case here.

 

[ayase]

Anti-science?

Do you and Chrono understand the concept of history or the past? Islamic science, centuries ago, was hugely productive. But now, as in these days, as in not centuries ago (is this starting to make sense?) Muslims reject any science that may contradict their faith. And this is unacceptable, as unacceptable as it is for Christian Evangelicals.

Yes, that was in the past. But it also proves that if Muslims can make all these scientific advances, it isn't fair or accurate to accuse Muslims of being anti science (which is what you're doing) even if official Islamic doctrine is. A person's own views and those of their religion are not inextricably linked.

If an individual chooses to be a Muslim, then that individual now belongs to a grouping of people. You're being incessantly pedantic and it's unhelpful.

And using "I'm right, you're wrong" as an argument is helpful?

I don't mind a debate, but let's not get bogged down in personal attacks... again.

A lot of people don't choose to join a religion, they are born into one. And the choice to leave a religion is very hard for a lot of people to make, even when they don't believe some of that religion's teachings. Even if official Islamic doctrine is explicitly anti-evolution as you claim, you can't use that to say "this is what all Muslims think." I don't like organised religion, but I at least separate "Islam" and "Shahid who lives down the road".

 

[Ammish]

What are you talking about? I'm stereotyping Muslims by describing their official stance on evolution? I don't think so. I never said every single Muslim rejects science, but a great deal do and that's unacceptable.

If you worded as that, fair enough. But the fact is that: Islam aren't anti-science and your comment on it 'being' past isn't going to change a thing. As there are muslim scientist to this day.

I don't see how the Catholic comparison works either. Catholics may have done bad things in the past (and continue to do them to this day) but they've changed their stance on evolution and the church officially recognizes that the Bible is not literally true.

...The comparison I'm trying to make is the: That Islam is a violent religion can be said for any religion.

Islam is a destructive, awful thing (more so than any other religion on Earth at this time) and the anti-science attitudes are just part of the reason it's so destructive.

That's what pissed me off, Citizengeek. You called Islam 'violent'. Granted, I've met a few violent muslims for speaking out my opinion. But these are ******* people. In the Qu'ran "Religion should be spread through love'. That counts in all religion. So really, all these violent people are not really muslim and if the books are to be true, they are going in hell anyway.

Catholic were violent. Other religions were violent and they have all moved on. It's a matter of time before they moved on. But why are you calling Islam a violent religion? Followers make it violent.

I have met Muslims - I go to a university in Dublin that has students from every background.

Congratulations, you met 'other people' of ethnicity. Have a beer... on me.

I'm right, you're wrong.

...You know what, I'm not going to even bother with you. I could've opt for the '**** off' option, but I rather keep my mouth shut because I hate that line. It just makes you egotistical and a twat.

Sorry but i'm taking CG's side on this.

Oh dear...

in my opinion without being PC right now. Muslims are hypocritical of themselves in general. Their holy book is just as much bullsh*t as the bible. yet christians/catholics understand that science is just as important as faith. and thus use it.

Haha, so is every religion. I'm not going to say anything more because I'm more inclined to agree with you. Their Holy Book however... being honest, it makes more sense than the Bible.

and some muslims misinterpret their holy book sometimes and thats how problems start.

Again, happens with all religion. Though the biggest problem in Islam, female rights. Islam has given Women rights to vote and own property as well as others stuff 1,500 years before the Westerners did. I'm not even joking.

I guess the Muslims don't want to acknowledge that

you've already said that the Qu'ran says that muslims shouldn't live in a non muslim country. yet they are in england?

Yep, I'm confused by that.

they aren't allowed to eat non hallal meat. yet i see em in macdonalds eating a big mac....last time i checked macdonalds don't sell hallal meat. and their not allowed to drink or smoke...yet i see em down the pub and the muslims i went to highschool with smoked sheesha pipes....which is 5 times more harmful than normal smoking. so why can't they understand that evolution is just as likely as a god creating the world and everything with it.

Smoking isn't Haram, it's Makroo. It means that it's allowed, but you shouldn't do it anyway. As for eating 'big mac', keep in mind that there are Muslim children/teenagers who don't want to follow their religion, yet they had to do it for their parent's sake. Because trust me, these parents aren't afraid to kill their own children because...

leaving Islam = Death in a Islamic State. And they are trying to bring that rule here, saying it's part of their religion. Tis a sad case. But most of the time, it's either 'well, okay. But as long as you're under my roof, you must do what I say' or 'Out of my house, you're no longer my son/daughter;.

There are muslims who accept evolution. It's just that they proclaimed they kept their qu'ran unchanged throughout the years and is the one 'true book from once it came down the earths'. With that message drilled in, admitting that is like death.

Though that's why there are many muslim fractions because of that.

I'm leaving this topic to be: Because it strayed away from its original point, so citizengeek. Make another topic about Islam and leave it be.

 

[chaos]

I'm leaving this topic to be: Because it strayed away from its original point, so citizengeek. Make another topic about Islam and leave it be.

Or just agree on disagreeing and leave this thing die. Back home we have a saying - Never discuss politics, religion and football.

 

[Voddas]

So.. yeah... fossil... wooo... aaah forget it.

 

[chaos]

So.. yeah... fossil... wooo... aaah forget it.

Fossil? Where?

Seriously, I've checked the videos at that website and it seems to me they have quite a way to prove something yet. It did though surprised me to find out that lemurs are actually primates as well.

i must confess that before this article, I've never seen a real lemur and my image of them was basically from "I like to move" in the Madagascar movie... =P