Podcast Goes Fourth...with Helen McCarthy!

[Professor Irony]

Thank you.

Yeah, it was quite a score that we managed to get Helen on the show - especially at such an early stage in the series. Our collective hat well and truly goes off to Chaos for that one; it's entirely him we have to thank for arranging things.

It would of course, be an honour and a privilege if we could persuade Jonathan Clements to give us a word or two as well, but I think that might take a bit more doing. We can always hope...

 

[ilmaestro]

Maybe I mis-read vash's question as "why aren't there more anime that are like Jackie Chan movies", but if we're going as far as to include boxing then there are definitely more series such as Rokudenashi Blues and Katsu!.

 

[alexrose1uk]

Once again interesting podcast, I enjoyed listening to it.
The only downside, is that it's almost all panned to the right. Centering it would sound better

 

[ilmaestro]

I'm surprised that modern anime didn't get panned left, right, and center.

/ba-dum tish

 

[Vashdaman]

Surely Yawara! would count.

Thanks for the suggestion! Based on my limited Google search, I'd say it definitely counts and it actually sounds quite good. Did it even come out in English, either anime or manga?

Realistic martial arts seem to come up so often in the background of other shows that it's oddly difficult to think of things which revolve around them.

Yeah, I agree. Martial arts do frequently pop up in anime. But even just semi-realistic and considered portrayals of martial arts, as a central focus for a film/show seems to be nearly no existent in today's anime landscape. I mean, we could very well consider Naruto as a martial arts series(I did actually find the shows description of Chakras to be very amusing, but probably more for the fact it's a mixing of yogic terminology with a show about Japanese ninja's, I assume this is purely down to the translation work, however) , but it's probably more of a kid's superhero show in reality.

Since it lists sword styles and ninja then the likes of Ninja Nonsense and Rurouni Kenshin should count. Also there is Baki the Grappler.

True, Samurai certainly were martial artists. But I suppose it just comes down to what your definition of a martial arts movie is. I've personally never really considered Seven Samurai and the like as 'martial arts' movies, they've always been in they're own category of 'historical samurai movies' for me. I've never seen any Kenshin stuff though apart from Trust&Betrayal which was probably as much of a character driven drama as much as anything (though the fight scenes it did have were of class A potency). Sword of Stranger was a little more excessive (in a good way) in it's fights and the fact that it didn't just focus on Samurai but on Chinese warriors too set the film apart from the usual samurai suspects, and makes it feel a bit more martial artsy, in my opinion.

So yeah, swordplay definitely seems to be the best, realistic martial arts action we're getting in anime right now. But Japan does have other well known martial systems it could use for proper inspiration for anime, such as Judo,Karate, ect, (I don't really know much about Japanese martial arts) but I think they also have various fairly well established variants of Chinese Martial art systems over there as well.

@teo
Thanks for the recommendations! Personally I wouldn't really define a boxing anime any more a martial arts show than I would Rocky, so it's not really what I was after. Some of the other ones look interesting though, if a bit more comical looking than what I would usually go for. Still it's interesting to not that even these shows are quite old now too. I guess Martial arts just don't particularly fascinate the current crop of anime industry creatives?

Ooh, sorry. I've practically written my own pod cast here! :lol:

 

[Vashdaman]

Maybe I mis-read vash's question as "why aren't there more anime that are like Jackie Chan movies", but if we're going as far as to include boxing then there are definitely more series such as Rokudenashi Blues and Katsu!.

Hmm, who really refers boxing movies as 'martial arts' movies? I don't think anyone does. However simply labeling them as Jackie Chan movies is still rather limited scope to say the least. And it's not like Japan hasn't already had a long history of producing proper martial arts live action films, so why not anime?

Heck even the UK has it's own Shaolin movie now

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Although, I don't think I'll ever be able to watch 'Iron Monk' without cringing, for a couple of reasons I can't really be bothered to detail, Though that footage actually looks surprisingly good.

 

[ilmaestro]

Maybe I mis-read vash's question as "why aren't there more anime that are like Jackie Chan movies", but if we're going as far as to include boxing then there are definitely more series such as Rokudenashi Blues and Katsu!.

Hmm, who really refers boxing movies as 'martial arts' movies? I don't think anyone does.

My point in a nutshell. Similarly (? maybe not so similarly, but Alanis Morissette got away with calling the song "Ironic", so whatever), I was using "Jackie Chan" as shorthand for the style of movie you instantly thought of, rather than specifically limiting it to one man's body of work and broken bones.

Not to mention the fact that Jackie Chan has made some of the greatest martial arts movies of all time, so if you instantly thought of films also featuring "comedy" American actors, you actually don't know what I meant by "Jackie Chan movies".

PPS. You should still read Rokudenashi Blues. In fact, I should really check out the dorama that aired recently.

 

[Rui]

Surely Yawara! would count.

Thanks for the suggestion! Based on my limited Google search, I'd say it definitely counts and it actually sounds quite good. Did it even come out in English, either anime or manga?

The anime started coming out then there was a licensing problem, and it was cancelled after the first box set came out. The licensor was just as disappointed as everyone else

I think there's still hope for the manga though one day. Even though it's a different kind of series, Urasawa seems to be considered a hot property in the US and someone might take a chance on it.

R

 

[teonzo]

@teo
Thanks for the recommendations! Personally I wouldn't really define a boxing anime any more a martial arts show than I would Rocky, so it's not really what I was after. Some of the other ones look interesting though, if a bit more comical looking than what I would usually go for. Still it's interesting to not that even these shows are quite old now too. I guess Martial arts just don't particularly fascinate the current crop of anime industry creatives?

I suppose it's just a matter of trends. In the 70's and 80's one of the major trends was sport: there was an anime for almost every sport existent (even golf). As I wrote in my presentation I'm quite ignorant on series that were aired after 1995, but from what I'm reading I can count on one hand the number of sport anime that were released in the last 10 years.
Another major theme was that the protagonist of the anime was the most unlucky person on earth, having experienced the saddest childhood ever and having to face countless and totally absurd tragedies. So the series just showed how miserable were the starting conditions of the main characters, how terrible were the adversities he/she had to face, and how strong he/she was to overcome them and find a sort of cathartic revenge.
The series about fighting sports (or martial arts) usually united these 2 trends, it was quite natural. Even on non fighting sports you could find totally absurd scenes against the main character. For example on Akakichi no Eleven (an anime on football) the players were forced to kick iron balls (spheres made of full iron of the size of a standard football) to get stronger (and the tone of the series was serious and tragic, not funny); on Kyojin no Hoshi the father of the main character was simply the most bastard father on the face of earth.
Trends are quite different in modern anime, so I suppose this can be a major reason why there are few/no anime on martial arts nowadays.

I can write some brief resumes about the overall stories of the series I listed if you are interested. I put them under spoilers so people who don't want to read can avoid them. I've rewatched in the past years only Tiger Mask and Ashita no Joe (they were aired on a sat TV), about the other series I have faded memories because I watched them 25 years ago or more.

- Kurenai Sanshiro
The father of Sanshiro is a judo master (as is Sanshiro himself) and gets killed by a man with a glass eye. So Sanshiro starts his voyage looking for this man with a glass eye to avenge his father. It has the usual structure of the "monster of the week", Sanshiro arrives in a new village where an evil bastard is oppressing the people, he fights, wins and everytime he leaves breaking the heart of the weekly beauty.

- Tiger Mask
Naoto is the most promising wrestler of an evil organization that aims to control the wrestling business. They kidnap children from all over the world, train them brutally (most of them die during the training years) and then send them to fight in the main wrestling federations over the world to win the titles and the money (the organization gets half the money). At one point Naoto faces some ghosts from the childhood, and decides to leave the organization, starting to fight loyally and becoming a positive hero. But the organization of course is not happy about this, and sends a lot of brutal wrestlers to kill him, failing each time. Another "monster of the week" series with a lot of blood, splatter and deaths. There are also a lot of touching moments about orphans and ruined childhood, I would dare to say they reach the levels of Grave of the Fireflies (same tone and same quality).

- Ashita no Joe
Joe is a hot-head boy, the usual stubborn homeless that is wasting his life. A boxe trainer, now ruined due to his vices, notices Joe's talent for boxe and decides to train him to make him a world champion. But Joe is not exactly the perfect example of a disciple, and continues to act recklessly both on the ring and in real life. This leads to all sorts of possible tragedies.

- Ninpu Kamui Gaiden
Faded memories here. Kamui is a ninja that decides to change life after becoming sick of seeing all sorts of abuses made by the rich people towards the poor. So he diserts and escapes from his clan (which is, of course, at the service of rich people). The clan is not happy with this, and sends their ninjas (former friends of Kamui) to kill him.


- Sasuke
Faded memories even here. After loosing a feudal war, the clan of Sasuke is mass killed by the other faction. After seeing his mother being killed, Sasuke decides to escape and to fight the oppressors. The usual series where the main character is fighting against the whole world ad nothing good happens.

- Ore wa Teppei
Teppei lives with his father, who is a miner and not the perfect example of a wise man. But his grandmother (quite resolute and violent) forces him to go to live at her house in a city and to start to conduct a "normal" life. So Teppei is sent to school, and there he signs to the kendo club. Kendo requires a strict discipline, while Teppei is just the opposite kind of boy: restive, reckless, stubborn, rebellious and disobedient. So the kendo master and the other boys hate him and try to boycott him in all possible ways. But Teppei is totally stubborn, developes his own weird kendo technique and starts to win against the others. It can seem a serious anime, but it's totally based on fun scenes.

- Ganbare Genki
Other faded memories. Genki is the son of a boxer, who gets killed on the ring by his opponent. So Genki brings the boxe gloves of his father, and decides to train himself to become a professional and defeat the killer of his father for revenge. To reach this he gets one of the most brutal and sick trainings ever (true Japanese spirit in the vein of Kyojin no Hoshi).



Teo

 

[Vashdaman]

My point in a nutshell. Similarly (? maybe not so similarly, but Alanis Morissette got away with calling the song "Ironic", so whatever), I was using "Jackie Chan" as shorthand for the style of movie you instantly thought of, rather than specifically limiting it to one man's body of work and broken bones.

Not to mention the fact that Jackie Chan has made some of the greatest martial arts movies of all time, so if you instantly thought of films also featuring "comedy" American actors, you actually don't know what I meant by "Jackie Chan movies".

PPS. You should still read Rokudenashi Blues. In fact, I should really check out the dorama that aired recently.

I'm a huge Chan fan! I grew up on movies such as Police Story, Drunken Master and my personal favourite Snake in Eagles Shadow. Still there is a lot more to the genre than Jackie's (undeniably brilliant) specific flavour.

Some of my favourite Chan scenes

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I think there's still hope for the manga though one day. Even though it's a different kind of series, Urasawa seems to be considered a hot property in the US and someone might take a chance on it.

It would be brilliant if it did happen. I shall keep my fingers crossed!

 

[Vashdaman]

Wow, thank's for taking the time Teo. Great post!

 

[cercia]

I just listened to it on the link. Anime getting worse is a topic that I've been wondering about for a long time because I definitely think anime is getting more static, however I think the directing is getting back on track again.

I don't want anime sanitized to the point that there is no sexuality...>< Anime is very sexy.

 

[Professor Irony]

I don't want anime sanitized to the point that there is no sexuality...>< Anime is very sexy.

If you're interested in the more sexual side of the medium, I can highly recommend Helen's "Erotic Anime Movie Guide" (assuming you don't already have it). Far from being a guidebook for hentai-fans, it's actually a pretty fascinating series of essays.

I suppose it's just a matter of trends. In the 70's and 80's one of the major trends was sport: there was an anime for almost every sport existent (even golf).

I'm curious now - do you know the name of the golf series? I've seen golfing manga, but I didn't know there was golf anime as well.

 

[teonzo]

I'm curious now - do you know the name of the golf series? I've seen golfing manga, but I didn't know there was golf anime as well.

The name of the series is:
Ashita Tenki ni Nare!
Beware it was quite crappy, at least that was what I thought when it was aired here in Italy ages ago. The Italian dub contributed a lot, it was really dumb. For example, when the protagonist wanted to concentrate in the moments before swinging and hitting the ball, he was shouting "SPA-GHE-TTI". I don't know what was the original Japanese version, but the Italian one was simply and totally dumb (the show was meant to be serious and not funny).



Teo

 

[Rui]

Dan Doh!! is another golf series, though not mega serious. It was released in R1 for some reason and probably sold spectacularly badly on a level rarely seen.

That "spaghetti" story is hilarious.

R

 

[Professor Irony]

The name of the series is:
Ashita Tenki ni Nare!

Ah, cheers for that. Most of the series seems to be up on youtube in Italian, but there's no sign of the original version for comparison, I'm afraid.

I also spotted another more recent golfing series called "Dan Doh", but neither of them look particularly interesting. Still, it amuses me that such series exist.

Edit: beaten on Dan Doh. Not a phrase I expected to be using today.

 

[ilmaestro]

The Italian dub contributed a lot, it was really dumb. For example, when the protagonist wanted to concentrate in the moments before swinging and hitting the ball, he was shouting "SPA-GHE-TTI". I don't know what was the original Japanese version, but the Italian one was simply and totally dumb (the show was meant to be serious and not funny).

Heh, I was intrigued enough to look this up - apparently he says "cha siu mein" in the Japanese, so actually not a million miles away!

 

[teonzo]

Heh, I was intrigued enough to look this up - apparently he says "cha siu mein" in the Japanese, so actually not a million miles away!

Just googled it, it seems it's a version of noodles with pork. I thought it was one of the many cases of creative Italian dub totally screwing the original, but it seems it was dumb from the beginning. Oh well, this anime is just a bad memory, I'll never try to rewatch it.



Teo