Mai Mai Miracle is done (February 4th 2014 - December 1st 2016)

I backed it, honestly just happy to have the film. Rather indifferent to whether people get it at retail the same day/6 months later.

Little more upset that AL won't be doing any more kickstarters, though I can totally understand why.
 
You're speaking a little like a robot, humans are as you put it often devoid of any rationality or reason. It doesn't matter what makes logical sense, I want mine and don't care what anyone else gets because the world revolves around me and I want to feel special.
Being irrational and unreasonable isn't inherently a problem. The problem is that the irrational and unreasonable attitude in question includes demanding that others miss out without any measureable gain for anyone. It's basically asking that others should miss out because it makes the individual feel good. I can't really see why anyone would support that, especially when there doesn't seem to be anything to gain.

Backers can feel special for being part of the project and helping make the release happen, they can also feel special with their backer rewards. They have plenty of ways to feel special, they don't need the one that causes problems for others.

The people at Anime Limited are free to make whatever decision they want and people in general are free to be as irrational and/or unreasonable as they want, but people are also free to comment and point out the issues.

Now I have to ponder whether Robots count as people...

To be blunt @Smeelia, if some people are going to be upset either way, doesn't it make more sense for Anime Limited to ensure that the least upset side is the 1,000+ people who have already collectively forked over $107,000 for this release, over an undetermined number who have yet to pledge even a penny? No one has ever said that we want Mai Mai Miracle to remain Kickstarter exclusive; just that we are in favour of Anime Limited honouring the previously promised hold-back period, before releasing to general sale.
Well, Anime Limited do already have the money from the Kickstarter, so you could argue they'd be better to focus on getting more customers from the release. It's also worth noting that only an undetermined number of backers might be upset by an earlier general release and the undetermined number of non-backers could potentially outnumber them.

Either way, making decisions based on trying not to upset people isn't necessarily the best way to operate. It's certainly in Anime Limited's interests to keep people happy as part of their business but there are times when other considerations should take precedence.

Outside of the pricing differences between Kickstarter and expected retail, this isn't even about an idea of "losing out" because a non-backer owns the same items we do. After all, only the standard edition of Mai Mai Miracle will reach retail (although the backer tier for that was $35; far more than market value of standard edition movies). It's about mutual respect between Anime Limited and the backers; as @fabio de lunatico noted, backing this release was more than just a glorified pre-order and under the worst of circumstances, we could have potentially lost our investments and had nothing to show for it. This hold-back is a token of appreciation for the trust backers placed in Anime Limited, as noted in their first mention of it (November 2015; a whole year ago...so why is it suddenly an issue now?):
The quote from Anime Limited is interesting, they did put themselves into a slightly more difficult position with that one. I didn't think they'd originally given a specific reason for the delay, if they made a point of it being included as part of backing then it's a bit more difficult for them to change their position.

I'm still not convinced that following through on that promise is the best option, but at least there's something of a reason there. Still, that doesn't make the needless delay, or demanding a needless delay, any more reasonable or rational, nor does it make the original decision to do so any more sensible.

It would be interesting if Anime Limited asked the backers how they'd feel about an earlier general release. That way, they could at least discover if they actually need to maintain the delay to show respect or if most backers don't actually care about the delay anyway.

As to why it's "suddenly an issue now", it was always an issue but it just happens to be a topic of discussion at the moment.
 
Put it this way, from the very start of the Kickstarter campaign the fact that Mai Mai Miracle would only get a wider release 6 months after backers had received their copies was being used as a perk and a selling point, a way in which to entice people to back the KickStarter and so although it’s impossible to figure out how positively (or negatively) this affected the trajectory of the campaign and its eventual completion one cannot refute this impact either and one has to assume that it had it had an effect. You may consider it foolhardy and naive to assume that the campaign mightn’t have reached it goal without the six month exclusivity but it's impossible to say otherwise at this point. Nobody put this on Anime Limited, they themselves insisted on this perk and so it’s right that they stand by their words. The way I look at it, the wide release for Mai Mai is not delayed, the actual release is six months away, backers (investors) are just getting copies earlier, no different to people picking up copies of BD’s and DVD’s at conventions before street date. Is six months early excessive? Sure but them's the breaks, Andrew could have said 1 month or whatever arbitrary number but I’m sure he deep down knew that Six months exclusivity sounded a lot more enticing to would-be backers. Anime Limited are producing a set amount of sets, made to order for people whom put hard earned money down 2 years ago, the fact that everyone else would have to wait 6 months later was never hidden. Printing and shipping thousands of copies to retailers has risks, producing these doesn't because they've already been paid and accounted for.
 
On the topic of backers, here's the full total:

1,903 backers in total

$1 - Wallpaper | 144 backers
$10 - Wallpaper + Post Cards | 21 backers
$25 - Digital Reward Package | 248 backers
$30 - Early Bird Basic Amaray Combi Edition (Standard Edition Combo) | 117 backers
$35 - Basic Amaray Combi Edition (Standard Edition Combo) | 184 backers
$45 - Early Bird Collector's Edition | 250 backers
$55 - Collector's Edition | 648 backers
$75 - Physical Artbook only | 18 backers
$130 - Collector's Edition + Physical Artbook | 201 backers
$250 - Collector's Edition + Physical Artbook + Exclusive Cinema Quad | 58 backers
 
Well, Anime Limited do already have the money from the Kickstarter, so you could argue they'd be better to focus on getting more customers from the release. It's also worth noting that only an undetermined number of backers might be upset by an earlier general release and the undetermined number of non-backers could potentially outnumber them.
Except that the people who have already paid them money have yet to receive the promised goods; so they should ensure their backers* are happy and their side of the contract has been met before seeking customers.
Either way, making decisions based on trying not to upset people isn't necessarily the best way to operate.
Exactly; which is why they should uphold this hold-back despite it potentially making an undetermined number of non-backers upset.
It's certainly in Anime Limited's interests to keep people happy as part of their business but there are times when other considerations should take precedence.
While there are certainly times where that is the case, I disagree about this being one of them.
The quote from Anime Limited is interesting, they did put themselves into a slightly more difficult position with that one. I didn't think they'd originally given a specific reason for the delay, if they made a point of it being included as part of backing then it's a bit more difficult for them to change their position.
Which is why they shouldn't; it was explicitly promised to roughly 1,500 people who backed the project.
I'm still not convinced that following through on that promise is the best option, but at least there's something of a reason there. Still, that doesn't make the needless delay, or demanding a needless delay, any more reasonable or rational, nor does it make the original decision to do so any more sensible.
Whether the decision was reasonable or rational is something that we'll have to agree to disagree on, as we both have our own biases there (me being a backer, you being a non-backer). However, as the decision has long-since been made, the reasonable thing to do would be to stick to it.
It would be interesting if Anime Limited asked the backers how they'd feel about an earlier general release. That way, they could at least discover if they actually need to maintain the delay to show respect or if most backers don't actually care about the delay anyway.
As I noted when the suggestion was brought up earlier, I highly doubt backers would vote for forfeiting the hold-back, as they have nothing to gain by doing so. Although through no fault of Anime Limited, backers have received numerous emails informing them of delays for over two years (the fulfilment estimate on my account still says November 2014!). While I certainly hope most of their comments have and continue to be civil, would you want to risk poking that hornet's nest by suggesting an aspect of their pledge condition be taken away?

I'll be honest, when the hold-back was first promised, I thought six months sounded like a long time and would have been cool with three, had that number been suggested instead. However, now that six months has been locked in for over a year, I think that period should be upheld.

EDIT: *Originally, I used the word "investors" instead of "backers". Buzz (indirectly) mentioned on Twitter that some users' definition of "investors" doesn't line up with the legal definition of the word (although he clarified mine in this post wasn't; probably because it was contextually closer to the dictionary definition).

Whether Kickstarter backers should be legally treated as investors is a broader discussion above our pay grades, but just in case there's any confusion, I have replaced the word and just wanted to clarify that my point was essentially, that due to their role in this campaign, backers should simply be treated with more import than non-backers regarding this matter.
 
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Oh no equality is so wrong. Yes I am a socialist but that is a different issue saying we wanting release with a limited holdback is marxism is the stupidest thing I've heard
 
I'm going to be completely honest and say I think we all need to collectively be ashamed of this thread. I fail to see what warranted the namecalling and general ****-flinging, even if you feel the 6 month delay is perfectly fair and valid, all you needed to say was "I'm sorry you missed out, but I really appreciate the delay. Better luck next time." It didn't really need to be dragged out and turned into personal attacks, dogpiles or attempts to justify behaviour you openly acknowledge as selfish with "Screw you, human nature!".

I can only hope nobody judges the forum based on the contents of the thread. Not that I could blame them.


Also, I'm not comfortable with the equation of backers and investors. The rewards are fixed and AL is legally obligated to pay them, I would consider it more of a risky pre-buy. And from an accounting perspective, KS backings should almost certainly treated as liabilities. If AL originally intended to fulfill them within one year, they wouldn't even count as Capital Employed. (It seems clear to me that it meets the definition of liability as specified in IAS 37, "A liability is a present obligation of the entity arising from past events, the settlement of which is expected to result in an outflow from the entity of resources embodying economic benefits.".)
 
You're being way too over-dramatic.

I would suggest you guys seriously misjudged how you were coming across.

I appreciate some of it was an attempt at humour. But you slit the joke's throat, then decapitated it, then shoved the components on a motorcycle before driving said motorcycle over a cliff.
 
I treat all Kickstarters as gambles anyway so I really don't worry about whether/when I get the item. Apparently I backed for the CE. Cool. I already have the film anyway so I think I only backed it to support the wider release in the first place.

Treating a Kickstarter as a preorder seems like a fast track to disappointment. Sad that we won't be getting more; the whole thing was so promising before but then Skip Beat annoyed me and some of the vitriol in the responses to a few of the campaigns I've been on have made me despair.

R
 
I would suggest you guys seriously misjudged how you were coming across.

I appreciate some of it was an attempt at humour. But you slit the joke's throat, then decapitated it, then shoved the components on a motorcycle before driving said motorcycle over a cliff.
Well I apologize for making you feel that way, I feel that everyone has been civil and well articulated within this thread, putting their thoughts and feelings forth in non demeaning manners. The way you describe the atmosphere in this thread you'd think that this was a thread on /a/, or at least what people think a thread on /a/ is like. Nobody flung **** at anyone, dog-piled or called anyone names. If we can't discuss things like this, why even have a forum other than to circle jerk in an echo-chamber? I like joking about, I don't like being serious about anime blu-rays and kickstarters, its bad for the health, I come here to have fun and escape the garbage. That doesn't mean that we can't have serious discussions but we should be bale to poke fun at ourselves and laugh too.
 
I treat all Kickstarters as gambles anyway so I really don't worry about whether/when I get the item. Apparently I backed for the CE. Cool. I already have the film anyway so I think I only backed it to support the wider release in the first place.

Treating a Kickstarter as a preorder seems like a fast track to disappointment. Sad that we won't be getting more; the whole thing was so promising before but then Skip Beat annoyed me and some of the vitriol in the responses to a few of the campaigns I've been on have made me despair.

R

I was speaking with my financial head switched on and from an accounting perspective. I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to assume that position outside of an accounting context. (I appreciate discussing things from that perspective is weird, but the misappropriation(?) of some terms was bugging me.)

From a personal perspective and if I was talking to friends socially, I would suggest Kickstarter was akin to one of those "win every time" teddy picker things, it's really a question of how much you trust the operator. I would also make it absolutely clear that you should approach it like a bet and not back amounts of money you can't afford to lose.
 
Yeesh, this thread man lol.

For what it's worth (nothing really...) I totally get the hold back (that's not to say I'm not laughing at some of the posts in here.....), would I want it held back myself had I pledged? Nah not really, I gain nothing from other people not having it. I want the film, if I still want it in 6 months I'll buy it, if I don't care anymore then meh, whatever, life goes on and all that.
 
I treat all Kickstarters as gambles anyway so I really don't worry about whether/when I get the item. Apparently I backed for the CE. Cool. I already have the film anyway so I think I only backed it to support the wider release in the first place.

Treating a Kickstarter as a preorder seems like a fast track to disappointment. Sad that we won't be getting more; the whole thing was so promising before but then Skip Beat annoyed me and some of the vitriol in the responses to a few of the campaigns I've been on have made me despair.

R
I think it is really disappointing that Anime Limited will no longer be pursuing the Kickstarter route in the future, as it was a really neat idea to help push out great films with little normal commercial prospects, but I can appreciate that this must have turned into a considerable, unplanned headache for Anime Limited. The kind of delays that affected Mai Mai Miracle occur with normal releases too, but I imagine the pressure of having to appease backers would have only added to the stress, whereas these things could be handled differently if it was mostly internal, like normal releases.

That said, I've never held the delays against Anime Limited - each time one occurred, they were thorough with explaining why and have explored ways to make it up to us; such as access to the digital copy and later, the English dub to coincide with the Japanese re-release - and I can't recall a single delay where the cause wasn't external; be it the director requesting further involvement, timing with In This Corner of the World etc. I may have sounded crabby at times regarding the hold-back debate, but my opinion has been more on how I predict others may react (I've seen how things can blow up in the gaming scene >>). I look forward to seeing my copy drop through the letter box - I've had the digital copy for ages but have yet to watch, because I think it's more poetic if my first viewing be on the blu-ray (and the set looks really nice!).

The Collector's Artbook looks really nice and a part of me now regrets not backing enough for that, but I wasn't exactly in the position to do so at the time.
 
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Everyone: Advance warning that I will be locking this thread without prejudice if the arguing continues because it's about as fun to read as a punch to the face. I think everyone has said their piece now but the tone is definitely...off.

An opportunity for someone to turn it around into an actual discussion about Mai Mai Miracle and how much they're looking forward to it is still on the table.

R
 
Except that the people who have already paid them money have yet to receive the promised goods; so they should ensure their investors are happy and their side of the contract has been met before seeking customers.
Even with the promise, I don't think the 6 month delay would be considered an essential part of the contract. Anime Limited could still fulfil the orders for backers then have the general release be less than 6 months without actually cheating anyone.

Thinking about it, you mentioned that the promise was made at the end of 2015 so it wasn't really part of the Kickstarter project so much as an "added bonus" that Anime Limited decided to suggest. I don't think it'd really be binding, even if Anime Limited feel obliged to make good on it anyway.

Exactly; which is why they should uphold this hold-back despite it potentially making an undetermined number of non-backers upset.
Except that they're really only upholding it to avoid upsetting people (even the respect angle is based on that), while going back on the promise has more tangible benefits for people. You can maybe argue that the better option is to avoid upsetting backers but I don't think there's an argument that upholding the delay actually benefits anyone in any other way (aside from any indirect benefits of not upsetting people but, as discussed, people will be upset either way).

Whether the decision was reasonable or rational is something that we'll have to agree to disagree on, as we both have our own biases there (me being a backer, you being a non-backer). However, as the decision has long-since been made, the reasonable thing to do would be to stick to it.
I don't recall saying I wasn't a backer. The idea of needlessly delaying a release when there's no practical reason to do so, purely because seeing other people miss out apparently makes some people happy (and preventing others from missing out would apparently upset them) is highly questionable at best. Any bias in this specific case isn't really relevant, there are significant issues with the basis for the situation.

I think the time since the comments were made could as much be used to defend changing the decision. It's been a long time, circumstances change, people have already waited a long time and now they're being asked to wait longer because otherwise some people won't feel sufficiently "special". I don't think it's any less reasonable to be willing to make changes (even the delay itself was apparently a change quite some time after the project had started).

As I noted when the suggestion was brought up earlier, I highly doubt backers would vote for forfeiting the hold-back, as they have nothing to gain by doing so. Although through no fault of Anime Limited, backers have received numerous emails informing them of delays for over two years (the fulfilment estimate on my account still says November 2014!). While I certainly hope most of their comments have and continue to be civil, would you want to risk poking that hornet's nest by suggesting an aspect of their pledge condition be taken away?
It's true that Anime Limited might not want to bother backers with those kind of questions, especially if their current aim is to avoid upsetting the backers. Still, if they did ask I wouldn't be surprised if most backers were indifferent and merely wanted the release themselves without regard for what anyone else was getting. If most backers were indifferent anyway, then going ahead with the delay would be unnecessary since going against it wouldn't actually upset those who were indifferent or those who support a reduced delay.

I don't expect Anime Limited to change what they're doing, if nothing else they probably wouldn't want to put any extra time into things. Still, I'd like to hope that they'd avoid using an artificial delay for others as some kind of "benefit" to buyers in future. It's unfair and it's always going to upset someone, so it's kind of a silly thing to do. They're apparently not going to do any more Kickstarter projects, so they may not even need to consider such things, but I hope they'd realise that it wasn't such a good idea just on the off-chance something similar comes up in the future.

Honestly though, why should other people enjoy an immediate general release? The backers are the ones who made the subtitling and dubbing of the film possible by entrusting AL with money earned through their own hard labour. They paid up front, effectively contributing wages earned through hard labour to ensure the project would happen. By asking them to rescind the hold back, you're essentially saying it's acceptable to be rewarded for absolutely nothing (which is tantamount to marxism). I mean, in an indirect way, you're freeloading off the labour of others.
That's a bit silly, people would still have to buy their copy of the release so it's not a case of non-backers being rewarded in return for nothing. The delay is closer to a penalty anyway, there's no practical reason for it and it's preventing them from even having the option to buy a copy.

The general release is almost certainly going to happen and backers knew that it was a likely outcome of the project from the start, making a release of the film was the stated purpose of the Kickstarter and that's what backers were paying to support. The actual items that backers receive are "rewards" for taking part, essentially side benefits to being a part of the project. If making the release available was the main goal of the project, needlessly delaying that release seems counter-productive. So I suppose the question remains, why shouldn't there be a general release as soon as is practically possible?

(I hope this doesn't count as continuing any arguing per Rui's post, although I'd written a whole lot by the time I saw that post and I'd feel bad to lose it. I suppose I'd appreciate the joke if Rui deleted my post on the basis that it was unreasonable and unfair and it'd be better to upset me than subject people to that.)
 
I thought that this thread was an enlightening read personally, a thread in which everyone stated their points eloquently and without malice but equally passionate but I guess there's nothing more to be said. I do look forward to the next thread in which we can have a similar, sometimes heated debate because it really beings to light the passion the community has for the animation industry and the paradigm shifts going on in regards to things like KS. Tone is often hard to decipher in text on the internet but I tend to assume the best in peoples posts and hope that people can assume the same in mine, but in the instance that they don't, I will work towards improving that.

As it stands, I look forward to seeing the film.
 
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