Ledford blames fansubs for closing down ADV UK's operations

[KingJimmeh]

I understand the factors as to the price. They've been discussed many times. Just my opinion as too the main factor as to poor sales. Value of american series > anime. I think that is a far bigger factor than fansubs.

I know a lot of my friends don't download animes (prolly don't even realise fansubs exist). They just don't buy as it is poor value compared to other DVD releases.

 

[Urzu seven]

While I have only being watching and buying anime for the last six months after a very long break from it,but having read many of the posts on the forums from some people who seem to keep on complaining about the price and availability of certain anime and that fan-subbing is the only for them.Well since I've started to buy anime again I've been amazed both at the amount of and the cheapness of the anime out there especially from online retailers.And cheap does not equate to bad to give an example Ive bought appleseed,akira,ninja scroll,full metal panic,last exile,bubblegum crisis,gits sac and movies,hellsing,tenchi muyo,area 88,yukikaze,robotech and orguss 02 to name a few all for much less the suggested RRP .All those I've just mentioned are all region 2 releases and even though I've started to buy several region 1 series that are not available or are very expensive over here,I'am still buying several series over here such as bleach ,witchblade,berserk and black lagoon.As for the whole dowloading and fan-subbing anime on the internet ,it's wrong and ultimately it is us the fans who will suffer,because may no mistake people anime companies are not just here to provide us with our fix but like all other companies are here to make a profit and if they believe that the profit margins are not there they could easily pull out the market as geneon did in the states and adv had to turn to a third party in the uk and europe .We're all anime fans but if we don't start supporting those companies that license and release the anime that we love we could be left in a very bad situation indeed.

 

[Neferpitou]

I echo the same thoughts as other that ADV UK collapse was down to choosing titles which lack the ability to sell in the UK. They released too many show which were either poor in quality or shows that no matter how good they were they had little market who wanted to purchase them.

They had released shows like Gantz in the USA which would have been good seller for them in the UK, but they let mvm have the license? that was an awful decision.

Gantz wasn't so much ADV letting MVM have the licence rather than MVM winning the licence from Gonzo. Gonzo have proved time-and-again that they sell their licences on a case-by-case, territory-by-territory basis and whoever licences it in one territory is by no means indicative of who will get it in another. There are Gonzo shows licenced by Geneon in the US that were released by ADV in the UK (MVM historically licenced most shows from Geneon's catalogue) and conversely shows licenced by FUNimation in the US, where MVM holds the UK licence.

ADV have managed to retain the UK licence for a couple of Gonzo releases and FUNimation have managed just one (Kiddy Grade). On top of that GDH have entered the UK market as a direct distributor in their own right, with the release of Afro Samurai. Whether they will release more of their catalogue this way remains to be seen but it makes second guessing the UK distributor of them that much harder.

It was still mistake not but more effort in to getting the Gantz license as an example. It was not like they were bidding against someone like MANGA who with there bigger sales than anyone else could out bid them. MVM are small company with no big company supporting them to my knowledge. If you look at the quality/high profile shows MVM released like samurai 7, samurai champloo, black lagoon, etc, Why didn't ADV tried to get these licenses?

Instead they released in their place titles which had nowhere near the sale potential of the MVM releases and a lot of the time had no chance to even break even.

To do this you need strong ties to your retailers, which is difficult to do unless you can prove steady unit sales. It's a vicious cycle really.

One thing I don't really understand is why don't the UK anime companies encourage the buyers to buy directly off the own websites cutting out the retailer middleman, so increasing profit tremendously and not requiring such strong retailer present to survive.

Only really MVM has bothered to encourage to fans to buy off them, ADV selling DVD'S in its last stages of life for 1-2 pound arent going to make you any profit so doesn't count. I don't think retailers care about it either as there were plenty of mvm titles instore at virgin megastores last time i went.

Manga & Optimum Asia can get away with not encourage people buying directly off them as they have really good sales. But Beez & Revelation Films with lower sales and struggling to break even, I think it wouLd be the way forward to go.

The one main difference between MVM and the other licensors is that MVM started out life as a shop long before getting into anime distribution. They started licencing and distributing anime by happenstance rather than going into business with that goal specifically in mind.

All the UK anime companies already have their own shop that sell their titles already, but they put no effort at all in trying to encourage sales through their online sites. This something that should change as their would be more profit to be made through sales on their own sites than selling through retailers who take big chunk of the profit of the dvd sales. These shop are already here and are staffed, they should be used to their full potential.

 

[beez_andrew]

That's all you'll ever find at Beez is Bandai licenses. as that's who owns them. Andrew that's a pretty nice stance coming from a rep who's company wants to sell us 1 or 2 episodes of Gunbuster 2 on 3 discs.

To clarify, we're not actually from the same company. The Namco Bandai Group is actually made up of many different companies in one strategic business unit. So we may be a part of the same group as Bandai Visual - but that doesn't make us the same or share the same policies - hence our release of Gunbuster over 1 release at the price of 1 of the US DVDs .

We're all more like siblings, we have the same parent but are just related to each other .

Your Concept isn't that original either, though I do support it. I myself had the same idea way back in 2001 and had put the idea across Anime Nation's "Ask John" John Oppliger and his response back then in short was "the Japanese will never do it because they fear back importing and don't think it's worth it anyway". I got pretty much the same reply when I put the idea directly to AIC in Tokyo that same year, and that was the general attitude of many fans, that it would never happen, right up until just last year when things started to look over the precipice before actually going over after the New Years hangovers this year. I don't know if you know about Anime News Network but one of their staff wrote this letter to the industry that pretty much has the same proposal. So far the response has been vague and patchy.

Well I wasn't exactly proposing it as a unique and never considered solution to the problem - it's been one thrown around by people since as you say 2001-ish if not earlier. The thing is, if you look at Japan these things have been happening already to a greater extent - so it's no longer a vague and patchy idea . My question was more to solidify the idea that has been floating around in a long time and see what people say.

(I read ANN + ICV2 each day when possible so am well up to date on the whole letter to the industries that went back and forth from ANN, AoD, Bandai Visual and GDH ^^)

Don't get me wrong. I'm with you on this and can only see it as the only viable solution at present until some other marketing guru comes up with another winning plan, but as one fan put it at ANN "how can a company compete with free and make a profit?". That's a toughy. BTW I voted it was a complex issue because the infestation of fansubs is the result of the anime companies, both in Japan and the US, ignoring it for too long, and not doing anything about it sooner. Also, like some have said, licensing titles only to keep them in the can for far too long before releasing them.

Sorry for above points, I realize you are with me on it - was just clarifying what I meant too ^^!

To be frank I have several answers to that question boiling at the back of my head. I found this to be one idea to help the issue. Theoretically it would negate fansubs after a while - as the goal of them has been to bring anime out quickly in the west when it isn't licensed etc. There are definitely ways to compete anyway - though it's a matter of finding the happy balance really.

Working Sundays is not fun I say! Now away from work for the rest of my afternoon ±_±!

 

[ConanThe3rd]

I'm going to be frank, why buy something that is six month's later than the same deal in the US and twice as expensive.

ADV were pretty **** at geting the price down to a point where I could put down money for it, at least other companies are trying to get it to the magic £10 if not by natural RPP down but by online reductions.
Also, I can't exactly say that I was jumping at the bit for Kanon or any other of that such nonsence ether.

Course, if Leford thinks of me a Pirate then slap an eyepatch on me, grow me a full beard and pearch a parrot on me, I'll be a damn pirate.

 

[Mohawk52]

That's all you'll ever find at Beez is Bandai licenses. as that's who owns them. Andrew that's a pretty nice stance coming from a rep who's company wants to sell us 1 or 2 episodes of Gunbuster 2 on 3 discs.

To clarify, we're not actually from the same company. The Namco Bandai Group is actually made up of many different companies in one strategic business unit. So we may be a part of the same group as Bandai Visual - but that doesn't make us the same or share the same policies - hence our release of Gunbuster over 1 release at the price of 1 of the US DVDs .

We're all more like siblings, we have the same parent but are just related to each other .

That's similar to General Motors, where Vauxhall, and Chevrolet are "in the famly" but sold independently, however unless a francise is a supermarket, you won't see a Vauxhall dealer selling new Fords, so on that premiss, will you be distributing anime titles from anyone else besides Namco Bandai owned studios then?

Your Concept isn't that original either, though I do support it. I myself had the same idea way back in 2001 and had put the idea across Anime Nation's "Ask John" John Oppliger and his response back then in short was "the Japanese will never do it because they fear back importing and don't think it's worth it anyway". I got pretty much the same reply when I put the idea directly to AIC in Tokyo that same year, and that was the general attitude of many fans, that it would never happen, right up until just last year when things started to look over the precipice before actually going over after the New Years hangovers this year. I don't know if you know about Anime News Network but one of their staff wrote this letter to the industry that pretty much has the same proposal. So far the response has been vague and patchy.

Well I wasn't exactly proposing it as a unique and never considered solution to the problem - it's been one thrown around by people since as you say 2001-ish if not earlier. The thing is, if you look at Japan these things have been happening already to a greater extent - so it's no longer a vague and patchy idea . My question was more to solidify the idea that has been floating around in a long time and see what people say.

You'll notice I said the response was vague and patchy, not the idea. :wink:

Don't get me wrong. I'm with you on this and can only see it as the only viable solution at present until some other marketing guru comes up with another winning plan, but as one fan put it at ANN "how can a company compete with free and make a profit?". That's a toughy. BTW I voted it was a complex issue because the infestation of fansubs is the result of the anime companies, both in Japan and the US, ignoring it for too long, and not doing anything about it sooner. Also, like some have said, licensing titles only to keep them in the can for far too long before releasing them.

Sorry for above points, I realize you are with me on it - was just clarifying what I meant too ^^!

To be frank I have several answers to that question boiling at the back of my head. I found this to be one idea to help the issue. Theoretically it would negate fansubs after a while - as the goal of them has been to bring anime out quickly in the west when it isn't licensed etc. There are definitely ways to compete anyway - though it's a matter of finding the happy balance really.

That was a very interesting link and I have bookmarked it for future reference, however in light of more recent events since January this year, with Geneon closing up shop in the west, and ADV going through reorganisation with closures of it own, that report is now looking a bit dated in need of an update. Also the author never takes into consideration that many of the Japanese studios and distributors didn't know what was happening to their overseas market in the first place, as another reason they were so "quiet about doing anything", they were blissfully ignorant. Have you read "JapanAmerica"? However, obviously, by your stance, and response to what Mr Ledford stated, you do not find his belief, that fansubs had at least a slight substantial part in ADVUK's demise, as valid, because Beez has not been affected by the same? Perhaps that could be because your catalogue was not as large, in UK comparison, as ADV's? :wink:

Working Sundays is not fun I say! Now away from work for the rest of my afternoon ±_±!

I know how you feel mate as that's where I am at this posting, working shift until 2100. No rest for the wicked, or heavily indebt.

 

[Ice Climber]

As I see it, we are past the point where fansubs do any good.

 

[rick]

Fansubs once did good? Well I never.

 

[ConanThe3rd]

Well, I don't see Seto No Hanayome, Kamen Rider* or Higurashi Kai geting released over here any time soon, do you?

*Yes, I'm aware of Dragon Knight, but that's stuck in development hell as far as I can see.

 

[beez_andrew]

That's all you'll ever find at Beez is Bandai licenses. as that's who owns them. Andrew that's a pretty nice stance coming from a rep who's company wants to sell us 1 or 2 episodes of Gunbuster 2 on 3 discs.

To clarify, we're not actually from the same company. The Namco Bandai Group is actually made up of many different companies in one strategic business unit. So we may be a part of the same group as Bandai Visual - but that doesn't make us the same or share the same policies - hence our release of Gunbuster over 1 release at the price of 1 of the US DVDs .

We're all more like siblings, we have the same parent but are just related to each other .

That's similar to General Motors, where Vauxhall, and Chevrolet are "in the famly" but sold independently, however unless a francise is a supermarket, you won't see a Vauxhall dealer selling new Fords, so on that premiss, will you be distributing anime titles from anyone else besides Namco Bandai owned studios then?

You can and hopefully will indeed, we regularly discuss and chase after titles outwith the NBG portfolio. Haruhi is one of these, as it's actually a Kadokawa title not one of our own in house ones ^^.

Never know what might be next as well!

Your Concept isn't that original either, though I do support it. I myself had the same idea way back in 2001 and had put the idea across Anime Nation's "Ask John" John Oppliger and his response back then in short was "the Japanese will never do it because they fear back importing and don't think it's worth it anyway". I got pretty much the same reply when I put the idea directly to AIC in Tokyo that same year, and that was the general attitude of many fans, that it would never happen, right up until just last year when things started to look over the precipice before actually going over after the New Years hangovers this year. I don't know if you know about Anime News Network but one of their staff wrote this letter to the industry that pretty much has the same proposal. So far the response has been vague and patchy.

Well I wasn't exactly proposing it as a unique and never considered solution to the problem - it's been one thrown around by people since as you say 2001-ish if not earlier. The thing is, if you look at Japan these things have been happening already to a greater extent - so it's no longer a vague and patchy idea . My question was more to solidify the idea that has been floating around in a long time and see what people say.

You'll notice I said the response was vague and patchy, not the idea. :wink:[/quote]

Man, I really need to learn to read sometimes and you were spot on as well XD!

Don't get me wrong. I'm with you on this and can only see it as the only viable solution at present until some other marketing guru comes up with another winning plan, but as one fan put it at ANN "how can a company compete with free and make a profit?". That's a toughy. BTW I voted it was a complex issue because the infestation of fansubs is the result of the anime companies, both in Japan and the US, ignoring it for too long, and not doing anything about it sooner. Also, like some have said, licensing titles only to keep them in the can for far too long before releasing them.

Sorry for above points, I realize you are with me on it - was just clarifying what I meant too ^^!

To be frank I have several answers to that question boiling at the back of my head. I found this to be one idea to help the issue. Theoretically it would negate fansubs after a while - as the goal of them has been to bring anime out quickly in the west when it isn't licensed etc. There are definitely ways to compete anyway - though it's a matter of finding the happy balance really.

That was a very interesting link and I have bookmarked it for future reference, however in light of more recent events since January this year, with Geneon closing up shop in the west, and ADV going through reorganisation with closures of it own, that report is now looking a bit dated in need of an update. Also the author never takes into consideration that many of the Japanese studios and distributors didn't know what was happening to their overseas market in the first place, as another reason they were so "quiet about doing anything", they were blissfully ignorant. Have you read "JapanAmerica"? However, obviously, by your stance, and response to what Mr Ledford stated, you do not find his belief, that fansubs had at least a slight substantial part in ADVUK's demise, as valid, because Beez has not been affected by the same? Perhaps that could be because your catalogue was not as large, in UK comparison, as ADV's? :wink:

From what I've seen of things now - if Japan didn't pay attention before (which was not for want of reporting) they are bolt right in their chairs about the EU/US markets nowadays. Not all of them but the ones with heavy interest, investment or direct sales over here are. I would not be at all surprised to see the whole game change quite a bit now, though that may well be true for the whole face of DVD distribution.

Bad wording on my part perhaps again! I think it's definitely a case that fansubs have had a negative effect and lead to a decline in sales for everyone, but the demise of ADV UK was not fansubs fault especially. I wish I could say otherwise but Beez is affected as much as everyone in the industry is by piracy! In fact catalogue size is almost irrelevant to it now, if it's a big or even moderate series now you can guarantee many people have seen it before a DVD release.

My response to what Mr Ledford stated does not mean that I don't think fansubs at least had the a slight part in ADV UK's demise, it just means that I know the actual story behind it. So the immediate disbandment wasn't due to what it was cited as and in the context given, the statement given by Mr Ledford was also leaping on the bandwagon.

Hope that clarifies things now .

(Haven't read JapanAmerica btw, will give it a look when I have a spare moment! Thanks for the reference!)

 

[Mohawk52]

It sure has, and thanks for participating. There aren't enough reps on these boards to help clear up the wild speculation and conjecture that unfortunately becomes fact by osmosis.

 

[Akaten]

.

 

[rick]

...

BBFC classification is optional in British cinemas, and I see no reason why the same shouldn't be true of video - especially given that the landscape has changed beyond recognition in 1984."

Just out of curiosity, if classification were to become optional for video, what would studios or licensors etc do if they decided to not run their stuff through the BBFC? Would they just give the product a suggested age classification (or none at all)? It woould cut costs when it comes to putting all these DVDs together, and thus they could be sold at lower prices.

I ask this because I'm not so savvy with the whole law behind age classification for media etc. I don't usually care enough to research things like this, but this made me a bit curious.

 

[Mohawk52]

...

BBFC classification is optional in British cinemas, and I see no reason why the same shouldn't be true of video - especially given that the landscape has changed beyond recognition in 1984."

Just out of curiosity, if classification were to become optional for video, what would studios or licensors etc do if they decided to not run their stuff through the BBFC? Would they just give the product a suggested age classification (or none at all)? It woould cut costs when it comes to putting all these DVDs together, and thus they could be sold at lower prices.

I ask this because I'm not so savvy with the whole law behind age classification for media etc. I don't usually care enough to research things like this, but this made me a bit curious.

That would work until a soccer mum buys Urotsukidoji for her 10 year old because it's a cartoon and all cartoons are for kids right?

 

[Tasker]

...

BBFC classification is optional in British cinemas, and I see no reason why the same shouldn't be true of video - especially given that the landscape has changed beyond recognition in 1984."

Just out of curiosity, if classification were to become optional for video, what would studios or licensors etc do if they decided to not run their stuff through the BBFC? Would they just give the product a suggested age classification (or none at all)? It woould cut costs when it comes to putting all these DVDs together, and thus they could be sold at lower prices.

I ask this because I'm not so savvy with the whole law behind age classification for media etc. I don't usually care enough to research things like this, but this made me a bit curious.

That would work until a soccer mum buys Urotsukidoji for her 10 year old because it's a cartoon and all cartoons are for kids right?

This is where they copy the Yankie boys and put "Definitely NOT for children!!" on the top of the front cover in big glowing letters. If they buy it then, it's their own damn fault.

 

[Mohawk52]

This is where they copy the Yankie boys and put "Definitely NOT for children!!" on the top of the front cover in big glowing letters. If they buy it then, it's their own damn fault.

Is that before, or after the "BAN THIS FILTH" headline reappears on the Daily Mail again? :wink:

 

[KingJimmeh]

This is where they copy the Yankie boys and put "Definitely NOT for children!!" on the top of the front cover in big glowing letters. If they buy it then, it's their own damn fault.

Hell, Waterstones do that with Manga, and i've heard nothing bad on that...

 

[rick]

The Noein and Tokko R1 boxsets (I've not seen anything else) have "not rated" written instead of an actual classification. I imagine those series were never rated in the first place, or is it just my copies?

Its not such a good idea to do something like that for Tokko, considering the amount of violence in the show. But if the front covers are anything to go by, you shouldn't need the classification.

 

[ConanThe3rd]

Um, R1s don't need to be rated cuz they are American.

Us Brits are under the tryrical rule of the BBFC and hence nonsence.

 

[J_C_X]

The Noein and Tokko R1 boxsets (I've not seen anything else) have "not rated" written instead of an actual classification. I imagine those series were never rated in the first place, or is it just my copies?

Its not such a good idea to do something like that for Tokko, considering the amount of violence in the show. But if the front covers are anything to go by, you shouldn't need the classification.

For some reason Television box sets and television shows in general are not rated by the MPAA they only rate movies.

My theory is that the American rating system for television i.e TV-MA is displayed clearly when a programme starts hence the reason MPAA only rates films as most buyers of the TV show will be fans and aware of the content. Makes perfect sense.