Leaders all agreed on TV live debate

Oh and before citizengeek comes on and starts ranting about me being a far-left extremist or a raving conspirator without actually checking any of my information, Id just like to ask.....well that you dont^___^

I know the kind of stuff that I say seems somewhat insane, but weve been gradually conditioned to believe authority, "trust the experts" as it were, gradually to take less adn less responsibility for our selves and our own lives and hand it over to unseen forces with assumed motives, we are logical, free thinking humans, its time to deny ignorance.

This is not the kind of arguement I can just lay out on a forum, this is something that involves literally every single part of society, and if anyone would like me to recommend them some books, please PM me.

Just tryin to help guys^__^
 
my political views are socially Liberal and economically I lean more to the socialist than the capitalist side of the scale, though not to an extreme (well, at least i dont consider my economic views extreme)
 
chaos said:
I've came across this little article. Thought I could share it http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8291688.stm

Ha no offence to you, but that article is a shambles, a completely textbook attempt to jump on the bandwagon thats currently stepping up pace that somehow to be a "conspiracy theorist" is actually a psychological condition, that has quite literally been recently posited in some recent American publications, and of course there is the textbook example of not actually addressing any of the aformentioned "conspiracy theories".

And relating such events as 9/11 to "conspiracy theorists" is an insult to the 60-90 percent plus of Americans who believe it was an inside job on recent polls.

Im not buying this article for a second, though I suppose it at least provides further comfort for those afraid of the prospect of actually finding the truth.

Frankly ANYONE who believes the governments spin on 9/11 for example are sorely lacking in rational, logical thinking capabilities, clearly havint done in depth research into what is one for the greatest crimes and events of our time, that has almost alone created the coming/already here, "post 9/11" orwellian superstate, a state where all who oppose the staus quo are terrorists, radicals and mavericks to be locked away in a secret prison without trial or a court.

Dont buy this tripe for one second.
Deny ignorance!!!
 
Right. Time to lay my cards on the table here. I'd say the reason perhaps I've gotten involved in this conversation (when 90% of the forum haven't) is because I have looked into quite a lot of these things in the past as I mentioned earlier, and I do still keep a wary eye on some of them. However, I'm convinced a lot of people - generally those who become very absorbed with the theories of major proponents of conspiracies such as David Icke (certifiable lunatic yet to provide any solid proof of most of his theories) or Alex Jones (connects far too many dots with lines which are his own conjecture at best, and is a massive fear monger) start to see the hand of design where there really is none (and at that point it does strike me as a bit of a psychological problem, namely paranoia). That is of major significance to me, as I think the point at which I was really turned off by a lot of the things being said by people in that community (especially around the whole 'New World Order' thing) was this idea that there's a plan, that there is a reason for everything - It sounded a lot like religion.

Now I don't believe in a God. I don't believe that there was a creator with a plan for this world, to me it's chance and a very big universe. When I started coming to the conclusions I eventually came to about a lot of conspiracy theories it was because I saw the same kind of attitudes from these people I see and abhor in say, proponents of intelligent design. People who say things are the way they are because God / Satan / The Illuminati planned it like that - and actually, that strikes me as the same kind of abdication of personal responsibility and denial of the facts to the contrary. I found the same attitude in both camps:

"Life is **** but it's not me who's to blame. Unseen forces are in control of our lives!"

And it wasn't only that but the shared belief in the coming 'apocolypse'. I have a book about 'God's Final Judgment' which some religious nutter left in my shop and (I'm laughing as I type this) it has several epilogues which have been added by glueing new pages into the back - and every one says the same thing: "Judgement is at hand! Very soon now! Really soon! Okay, this time for sure!" If the last 2000 years has taught intelligent people anything, it's that the day of judgement never comes. And it will never come. All progress is slow, and if against all odds there is a malevolent World Government conspiracy, it will come to power in several hundred years after very slowly manipulating everything into place. It will happen so gradually no-one will even notice (mainly because they'll die and be replaced by a new generation, just as we didn't notice the radical changes which have taken place since the middle ages), and as such it won't need to be achieved by force. In fact you might say it wouldn't look like a conspiracy at all, more like progress.

Once I looked again and made sure I was examining things with a critical mind, the result was that most of these theories just fell apart as surely as religion did. There are certain theories which persist in my mind due to evidence or lack or evidence to the contrary. I do try, and I think, largely succeed in keeping an open mind about things, but also a critical one. I'm not going to believe anything anyone says whether they be politicians, scientists or otherwise unless they have some solid proof to back it up. This post isn't aimed at anyone in particular, I just wanted to make clear where I stand at this moment in time with regards to this topic. Other people of course are free to have their own beliefs, but as always I reserve my respect for those who allow me the same courtesy.
 
ayase said:
Right. Time to lay my cards on the table here. I'd say the reason perhaps I've gotten involved in this conversation (when 90% of the forum haven't) is because I have looked into quite a lot of these things in the past as I mentioned earlier, and I do still keep a wary eye on some of them. However, I'm convinced a lot of people - generally those who become very absorbed with the theories of major proponents of conspiracies such as David Icke (certifiable lunatic yet to provide any solid proof of most of his theories) or Alex Jones (connects far too many dots with lines which are his own conjecture at best, and is a massive fear monger) start to see the hand of design where there really is none (and at that point it does strike me as a bit of a psychological problem, namely paranoia). That is of major significance to me, as I think the point at which I was really turned off by a lot of the things being said by people in that community (especially around the whole 'New World Order' thing) was this idea that there's a plan, that there is a reason for everything - It sounded a lot like religion.

Now I don't believe in a God. I don't believe that there was a creator with a plan for this world, to me it's chance and a very big universe. When I started coming to the conclusions I eventually came to about a lot of conspiracy theories it was because I saw the same kind of attitudes from these people I see and abhor in say, proponents of intelligent design. People who say things are the way they are because God / Satan / The Illuminati planned it like that - and actually, that strikes me as the same kind of abdication of personal responsibility and denial of the facts to the contrary. I found the same attitude in both camps:

"Life is **** but it's not me who's to blame. Unseen forces are in control of our lives!"

And it wasn't only that but the shared belief in the coming 'apocolypse'. I have a book about 'God's Final Judgment' which some religious nutter left in my shop and (I'm laughing as I type this) it has several epilogues which have been added by glueing new pages into the back - and every one says the same thing: "Judgement is at hand! Very soon now! Really soon! Okay, this time for sure!" If the last 2000 years has taught intelligent people anything, it's that the day of judgement never comes. And it will never come. All progress is slow, and if against all odds there is a malevolent World Government conspiracy, it will come to power in several hundred years after very slowly manipulating everything into place. It will happen so gradually no-one will even notice (mainly because they'll die and be replaced by a new generation, just as we didn't notice the radical changes which have taken place since the middle ages), and as such it won't need to be achieved by force. In fact you might say it wouldn't look like a conspiracy at all, more like progress.

Once I looked again and made sure I was examining things with a critical mind, the result was that most of these theories just fell apart as surely as religion did. There are certain theories which persist in my mind due to evidence or lack or evidence to the contrary. I do try, and I think, largely succeed in keeping an open mind about things, but also a critical one. I'm not going to believe anything anyone says whether they be politicians, scientists or otherwise unless they have some solid proof to back it up. This post isn't aimed at anyone in particular, I just wanted to make clear where I stand at this moment in time with regards to this topic. Other people of course are free to have their own beliefs, but as always I reserve my respect for those who allow me the same courtesy.


I can genuinly say that as much as I respect your opinion, I heartily disagree.

I mean seriously, as much as some people ARE paranoid, and as much as some people DO have mental problems, I can assure you I and many others aside are just as critical as you say you are, the way you discount for instance Alex Jones(and this isint implying Im some sort of fanboy) as a fear monger is completely missing the point, and the way you discount what David Icke has written is also completely missing the point, both have told more truth over the years than all the mainstream crap that comes out of the corporate media moguls.

Ultimately to relegate such "theories" to the fringe of paranoia and insanity, and seeing dots where there is none, is fine, if thats the way you see it, but I can can assure you that in terms of where I stand, there is no motive to fit reality around my current stances, a la most of modern science, I am nothing more than someone who has a large interest in everything, whether it be science, history, theosophy, ancient civlizations astro-theology, psychology, mythology etc and when you do enough research more than just a pattern become apparent in the guiding of history by a select few.

And that is my current stance, if you want to do some Alex-Jones less research, etc, Id advise you read the works of Eustace Mullins, Andy Sutton, Alan Watt, Carol Quigley, Jim Marrs, and Id be glad to reccomend more if you car to actually study the subject deeper, without such notions as you posited.


No offence intended bro!
 
Spyro201 said:
Hehe...

Anyway man i've gotta shoot.It's time to watch various Presentations for an hour! Chat to you soon :)

Hey can ya tell me if you got my pm, cause its not appearing in my sentbox, even though its apparently sent.
Thanks!!
 
Outlawstar said:
Spyro201 said:
Hehe...

Anyway man i've gotta shoot.It's time to watch various Presentations for an hour! Chat to you soon :)

Hey can ya tell me if you got my pm, cause its not appearing in my sentbox, even though its apparently sent.
Thanks!!

That means he hasn't read it yet, till its read it'll reside in the outbox.
 
Tachi- said:
Outlawstar said:
Spyro201 said:
Hehe...

Anyway man i've gotta shoot.It's time to watch various Presentations for an hour! Chat to you soon :)

Hey can ya tell me if you got my pm, cause its not appearing in my sentbox, even though its apparently sent.
Thanks!!

That means he hasn't read it yet, till its read it'll reside in the outbox.

Thanking you Tachi;)
 
Outlawstar said:
Tachi- said:
Outlawstar said:
Spyro201 said:
Hehe...

Anyway man i've gotta shoot.It's time to watch various Presentations for an hour! Chat to you soon :)

Hey can ya tell me if you got my pm, cause its not appearing in my sentbox, even though its apparently sent.
Thanks!!

That means he hasn't read it yet, till its read it'll reside in the outbox.

Thanking you Tachi;)

I just got it through 3 times, but, on the college terminal nothing shows up. When I hit "Quote" I see it all. When I get home il reply to it saying if I can see it all :)
 
I believe this, though I would like it if you could recommend some books.

Since the financial crisis I took the direction of looking into the financial system. How inflation is set, how money is created and destroy, how recessions can be purposely forced and actually feel bad that it took this for me to even take notice, I would never have looked into the banking system if this current economic situation hadn't taken my attention.

I know more about the American political system then ours. The people above the senate are the lobbyists. They are the corporations who financially back the parties and back the senate. Most of the politicians in America are owned, bills are passed based on what the corporations want to happen. The real fight in the senate is not between the parties but instead is between wall street and those willing to oppose it. You don't have to believe that but its unfortunately true.

Federal reserve is a private bank as has already been said. All of Obama's cabinet which he has selected is connected to wall street (the financial centre in america, private). The US treasurer was the head of the federal reserve before his current post. Hidden is that america doesn't actually control the dollar, the federal reserve does. It can decide what its worth, it has the control over the whole US economy or rather the people behind it do.

Hmm that's just a very very brief summary, people don't want to hear this sort of stuff.

I don't know all that much about our government though I do know that in the Lisbon treaty there is an article that puts the European central bank as the official bank in charge of the euro. It controls the euro in 14 European countries currently I believe.

The Bank of England (private) is really in control of the pound as it can create and destroy 90% of our money, I am against the Euro as that would give the European central bank even more control over us, it has full control over the euro and it would be harder to break away from than the bank of England.
 
Outlawstar said:
I am nothing more than someone who has a large interest in everything, whether it be science, history, theosophy, ancient civlizations astro-theology, psychology, mythology etc
Now here is somewhere I can agree with wholeheartedly. I have been interested in all of the above for quite some time, and while I might not have come to the same conclusions I can say that there are a lot of 'out-there' theories which I don't entirely discount - I just need a few more pieces of evidence before I can believe them. A lot of this stuff is entirely possible, but it isn't currently provable.

And no offence taken whatsoever. :)
 
ayase said:
Outlawstar said:
I am nothing more than someone who has a large interest in everything, whether it be science, history, theosophy, ancient civlizations astro-theology, psychology, mythology etc
Now here is somewhere I can agree with wholeheartedly. I have been interested in all of the above for quite some time, and while I might not have come to the same conclusions I can say that there are a lot of 'out-there' theories which I don't entirely discount - I just need a few more pieces of evidence before I can believe them. A lot of this stuff is entirely possible, but it isn't currently provable.

And no offence taken whatsoever. :)

All I can say is that you will have to do deep research yourself, no-ones gonna truly lay it out on a plate for ya.I mean thats my genuine impression, that youve done a lot of research, but not nececarily the right research, I mean you cant just research for a while and say, right, this is the way it is you know, like I said Id reccomend some great books to anyone who wants to PM me.
 
Asdrubael said:
I believe this, though I would like it if you could recommend some books.

Since the financial crisis I took the direction of looking into the financial system. How inflation is set, how money is created and destroy, how recessions can be purposely forced and actually feel bad that it took this for me to even take notice, I would never have looked into the banking system if this current economic situation hadn't taken my attention.

I know more about the American political system then ours. The people above the senate are the lobbyists. They are the corporations who financially back the parties and back the senate. Most of the politicians in America are owned, bills are passed based on what the corporations want to happen. The real fight in the senate is not between the parties but instead is between wall street and those willing to oppose it. You don't have to believe that but its unfortunately true.

Federal reserve is a private bank as has already been said. All of Obama's cabinet which he has selected is connected to wall street (the financial centre in america, private). The US treasurer was the head of the federal reserve before his current post. Hidden is that america doesn't actually control the dollar, the federal reserve does. It can decide what its worth, it has the control over the whole US economy or rather the people behind it do.

Hmm that's just a very very brief summary, people don't want to hear this sort of stuff.

I don't know all that much about our government though I do know that in the Lisbon treaty there is an article that puts the European central bank as the official bank in charge of the euro. It controls the euro in 14 European countries currently I believe.

The Bank of England (private) is really in control of the pound as it can create and destroy 90% of our money, I am against the Euro as that would give the European central bank even more control over us, it has full control over the euro and it would be harder to break away from than the bank of England.

No prob, Ill pm ya.

You are utterly correct and obviously versed on the subject, and dont even get me STARTED on teh extraordinarily criminal Lisbon treaty, I always knew it would be passed if those at the top wanted it past, just ask the French and Dutch about that, but Lisbon is real groundwork being laid and a step in the right direction for the few, but 2 huge steps in the wrong direction for us the many, God it really riles me that us Irish were so gutless to vote yes, let alone vote again, all thanks to pure fear-mongering about the economy and how we cant manage without Europe, which is of course absolute garbage!!!
 
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