Gender roles, men + women, equal rights: discuss it all here

[awadama]

As a single white male I tend sometimes to feel that I am being discriminated against, not through direct discrimination but by the positive discrimination applied to others. When ever overtime is required they come after the single males, because obviously the women need to get home to their families, and the single guys have nothing better to do or go home for.

All you need to do is refuse. If you refuse something often enough, people just won't ask.

Or you could see it as a vote of confidence, that management has enough faith in your skills to offer you extra work. If they thought you were a waste of space, they'd surely want you out of the door as soon as your contracted hours were up.

At least you get the priviledge of having the option of overtime...it's more than I get (as in, they decided to remove it)... >_>

 

[Lin]

I work with two male colleagues with young children and I always do the overtime so they can spend time with their families and give them first choice of holiday dates so they can sync up with family trips etc. I honestly prefer it that way so their families don't miss out on time with their dads. Is this really a man/woman thing or a singles/family thing?

I'm totally for supporting people who work and have families, but I really cannot stand people who use their families as an excuse to get out of stuff. Like my boss at work, he sets it so he can take days off for his family, ahead of other people who asked way way in advance. Sure, it's understandable he wants to spend time with his kids, but it's not really fair to assume he's far more important just 'cause he has a family.

I think that's true - a lot of feminism has gone a little far and just seems to want to stamp on men as some kind of warped punishment for the injustices of the past (when the original intent, as far as I know, was just to gain equality). The way I try to live is to see everyone as humans first with their sex just being another feature like hair colour or height. As soon as any kind of gender stereotyping is put on anything it invariably ends up with one side trampled in the name of "equality".

My partner sews as I'm terrible at it I cook though, usually. Teamwork is definitely the way to go in dual earning households.

R

Look at the scientific breakthroughs where women can become pregnant now without men at all, feminists must be pretty happy, guys are becoming obsolete.

Anyway, teamwork is sensible, but I usually end up taking on a "You'll do it wrong anyway, so I should just do it" attitude, much to everyone else's chagrin.

See, now I usually end up cleanin' too, since I'm liek, supah dupah OCD.

A whirling dervish of cleanliness! Begone foul demons of dirt!

The lines defining genders by tasks have, most definitely, disappeared, but there are still plenty o' things that are linked to a specific sex and people (read : idiots) make judgements on that.

"HOH NOEZ, U LIEKZ PINK N CUTE TINGZ, UR GAY!"

So then I go stroke 'em on the arm and act all affectionate, and it totally freaks 'em out, it's awesome; I'm a raging heterosexual at heart.

 

[kupocake]

Look at the scientific breakthroughs where women can become pregnant now without men at all, feminists must be pretty happy, guys are becoming obsolete.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian

One of these things is not like the other.

Gender Equality hasn't really been achieved in all areas of society. Sure things a better and pathetic court cases are occasionally won over petty claims, but you can say that about just about any facet of modern life. The real crime of feminism is nothing to do with any resulting positive discrimination of men, it's that they went too far in all the wrong places and have made it harder for women to go further in sections of society that actually matter.

When I think feminism, I don't think about powerful, highly paid women putting a swift middle finger the way of their equally powerful, equally highly paid male colleagues. I think of feminist literary critics and other ultimately useless human beings in the humanities sticking it the patriarchy by analyzing sentences in century old books, oblivious to the fact that sitting pretty, reading books and moaning about them is exactly what their alleged oppressors would want them to do. Worse still, it creates a book-club culture where girls as intelligent as any boy in their class are channeled into the safe, chit-chatty world of the feminist dominated humanities without ever considering careers in the sciences and all the other disciplines which have the highest paying jobs at the end of them. Perhaps there is pay-inequality because of prejudice and sexism. But if there aren't as many qualified women for these roles in the first place, no amount of bitching at the misogyny in the works of D.H.Lawrence is going to change that.

And if you couldn't tell, I'm an English student

The whole equality thing is interesting though, because virtually no one wants absolute gender equality. Only the most radical of radical Feminism wants to make Women and Men meet at some kind of pleasant middle point where you can't tell the difference who's who anymore. 'Equality' still involves being something fundamentally different to what you're trying to equal, and that's surely impossible. Even people who want the right to be whoever the hell they want to be define themselves on the unequal normals that they started out with.

 

[Tachi]

i was laid on my bed thinking about this thread lastnight, found a few questions that could make me sound stupid but awwell.

1 why is their such prejudice over what some sexes can go but if the other sex did it they'd be frowned upon.

example: if two girls hug its all okay. i have girl friends who have kissed each other in public and nobody said a thing.
but if two guys hug then its frowned upon and the guys have to act all manly and act like their basically rugby players and all macho about the whole thing.

and out of a spare of the moment of randomness which i found funny; girls shave their legs and thats all ok.
if a guy shaves his legs and hes not a cyclist or swimmer or distance runner then your frowned upon aswell.

its just abit random.

 

[Dracos]

When ever overtime is required they come after the single males, because obviously the women need to get home to their families, and the single guys have nothing better to do or go home for.

I work with two male colleagues with young children and I always do the overtime so they can spend time with their families and give them first choice of holiday dates so they can sync up with family trips etc. I honestly prefer it that way so their families don't miss out on time with their dads. Is this really a man/woman thing or a singles/family thing?

R

I think it is a bit of both singles/family and man women, In my case it may also have something to with the actual women as either they have refused in the past so don't get asked again, or they do the bare minimum work required to get paid the overtime and sit there on personal calls or texting to rack up a bit more money to make it worth their time, of course the company know this and instead of dealing with it directly just don't ask them to do overtime.

Although this is pretty moot now as they company stopped all overtime to try and save/make more money.

In a previous job a couple of times doing overtime on a weeked a couple of the women bought their kids in with them, instead of taking it in turns to look after them they both sat and played with them together. At the end of the day they both claimed 4 hours of overtime and had not done one piece of work between them. Although this is quite an extreme case I can't say I did not see guys there wasting as much time either.

As a single white male I tend sometimes to feel that I am being discriminated against, not through direct discrimination but by the positive discrimination applied to others. When ever overtime is required they come after the single males, because obviously the women need to get home to their families, and the single guys have nothing better to do or go home for.

All you need to do is refuse. If you refuse something often enough, people just won't ask.

Or you could see it as a vote of confidence, that management has enough faith in your skills to offer you extra work. If they thought you were a waste of space, they'd surely want you out of the door as soon as your contracted hours were up.

At least you get the priviledge of having the option of overtime...it's more than I get (as in, they decided to remove it)... >_>

I have to admit however much I complain, I did actually like the extra money and I always felt I got more work done without the distractions of the phone and such.

Alas the overtime is no more the company thought it could do without it and save/make more money. However the piles of work still used to pile up so every so often they asked people to do a bit of overtime. Now I am in a different depart ment there is no overtime at all.

 

[CitizenGeek]

The whole equality thing is interesting though, because virtually no one wants absolute gender equality. Only the most radical of radical Feminism wants to make Women and Men meet at some kind of pleasant middle point where you can't tell the difference who's who anymore. 'Equality' still involves being something fundamentally different to what you're trying to equal, and that's surely impossible. Even people who want the right to be whoever the hell they want to be define themselves on the unequal normals that they started out with.

I agree with the fact that most people don't want absolute equality, but I disagree with your attempt to characterise the concept of equality as some kind of paradox.

Most women just want men to think outside the traditional belief that "housework and child-raising is for women alone". I'm sure that no one wants to see typical "chivalrous" actions like 'ladies first' or the man paying for dinner on a date or something come to an end. It's really not that complicated.

 

[Tachi]

Most women just want men to think outside the traditional belief that "housework and child-raising is for women alone". I'm sure that no one wants to see typical "chivalrous" actions like 'ladies first' or the man paying for dinner on a date or something. It's really not that complicated.

Agreed that the stereotypical views should cease, in todays society the amount of single parent families isn't confined to a certain sex. theres loads of single dads. and single mums.

the chivalry thing shouldn't be seen as a bad thing.

 

[Kurogane]

I'm all for gender equality, though if I had to institutionalise it based on the work ethic in my course, I'd have to say HEEEEEELL NO.

Can't speak for every group obviously, but I've noticed that all the women are the ones ******* around/calling someone/applying makeup almost on a continuous cycle, whereas the guys just get on with it and **** around on the designated ******* around period; dinner time.

I keeps me' hijinks in clock.

 

[Rui]

Sounds as though a lot of you have lazy colleagues! I work hard though and I know plenty of women who do. It's very annoying when a coworker isn't pulling their weight whatever their gender is but I don't think it's particularly something women have a predilection towards.

Shaving of legs etc is to attract a mate and conform to society (just like men shaving their beards and wearing branded clothes), nothing in the rule book saying they have to; though if we go out in a skirt with stubbley pins we invariably get snarky comments from men and women alike

On the chivalry thing; a question. How would one of the fans of chivalry feel if a woman, or even another man, started unnecessarily helping them and letting them have priority like that? Now and again, it's nice I agree, and I always get smiles when I hold doors etc for men (common courtesy in my opinion!). But when it's all the time or in front of others, it makes you feel like you're not taken seriously. That's what I object to mostly; where it becomes a persistent sense that I'm being given special treatment because I'm an incapable woman, rather than just general human politeness.

Some guys throw it back in your face too, the whole, "girls want equality but also want chivalry" schtick. So I'd much rather reject special treatment from the outset where possible to make sure there's no excuse for moaning later when I ask to be treated as an equal!

Love your comments about OCD Lin, my partner is a lot like that in some ways! So long as the arrangement works for both of you it's not a problem.

I agree with CitizenGeek on the organised religious views of women in certain faiths. Nothing propelled me away from my Catholic brainwashing as a child faster than the realisation I was being entirely marginalised for no reason whatsoever beyond not having been born with a penis. Nobody has even been able to give me an acceptable reason for why that kind of thing exists now.

R

 

[Tachi]

chivalry is okay every once in a while, like today while on lunch a woman had a push chair so i kept the door open for her. but anyone else has limbs too and can do it themselves, theres no need for good samaritans. there's a line to being helpful and just being walked all over. The samaritans just haven't realised that yet lol.

Thanks for answering my question rui, now it makes sense :thumb:

you were born into a catholic background Rui?
wow learn something different everyday :lol:

 

[CitizenGeek]

On the chivalry thing; a question. How would one of the fans of chivalry feel if a woman, or even another man, started unnecessarily helping them and letting them have priority like that? Now and again, it's nice I agree, and I always get smiles when I hold doors etc for men (common courtesy in my opinion!). But when it's all the time or in front of others, it makes you feel like you're not taken seriously. That's what I object to mostly; where it becomes a persistent sense that I'm being given special treatment because I'm an incapable woman, rather than just general human politeness.

Yeah, that's actually a fairly good point. I guess chivalry can become condescending and even undermining if overdone.

 

[Lin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian

One of these things is not like the other.

Sorry, should have clarified myself moar.

Super mega ultra "God all men are bastards, I don't want to be associated with them, lets change 'woman' to 'womyn' so it doesn't have man in it" feminists.

Original concept of feminism = good, ULTRA feminism = bad. You're right, it got screwed up by the very people who tried to champion it, so very sad. P.S. I hate Germaine Greer, she ruins Newsnight Review, even moreso than that dull, dull Irish guy...

Anyway, lesbians would just man up and get a sperm donor!

 

[Liquid Skin]

Wow this kicked off better than i expected it to, keep up the debate peeps, ill post something more substantial when i can

 

[Tachi]

Wow this kicked off better than i expected it to, keep up the debate peeps, ill post something more substantial when i can

When another thread loses track??

 

[kupocake]

Wow this kicked off better than i expected it to, keep up the debate peeps, ill post something more substantial when i can

Don't get your hopes up. Within a page we'll be talking about Final Fantasy X-2 and then Bam!

 

[Gacha]

On the chivalry thing; a question. How would one of the fans of chivalry feel if a woman, or even another man, started unnecessarily helping them and letting them have priority like that? Now and again, it's nice I agree, and I always get smiles when I hold doors etc for men (common courtesy in my opinion!). But when it's all the time or in front of others, it makes you feel like you're not taken seriously. That's what I object to mostly; where it becomes a persistent sense that I'm being given special treatment because I'm an incapable woman, rather than just general human politeness.

Yeah, that's actually a fairly good point. I guess chivalry can become condescending and even undermining if overdone.

But it's still expected thats the problem, i believe a lot in being chivilarious and i'll admit i sometimes get the feeling that i'm being more insulting than helpful.
But no one will speak up, if someone said "don't worry you first" sure i may feel a little dejected(most people would) but at least i(and everyone else) would know were they stand.
I speak more personally than for everyone but we seem to be living in a soceity where no one will speak up yet expect the treatment they believe they deserve.

 

[Ammish]

Wow this kicked off better than i expected it to, keep up the debate peeps, ill post something more substantial when i can

Don't get your hopes up. Within a page we'll be talking about Final Fantasy X-2 and then Bam!

I've heard a rumour that two members on here are dating each other? >.> Is this true?

Topic change ftw

 

[Liquid Skin]

Wow this kicked off better than i expected it to, keep up the debate peeps, ill post something more substantial when i can

Don't get your hopes up. Within a page we'll be talking about Final Fantasy X-2 and then Bam!

I've heard a rumour that two members on here are dating each other? >.> Is this true?

Topic change ftw

Ooo do tell

Why am i assisting the change of topic in my own thread?

 

[Liquid Skin]

On topic:

To be honest i pick and choose my chivalry. I mean when it comes to stupid things like helping a lady to her seat or standing up when they come to a table....i just dont do it (unless its for a girlfriend in which case its just romantic hehe) It does feel rather wierd and honestly slightly like a "come on" move - like you're being unnecessarily nice just to get into her pants or something. Thats kind of what stops me from pushing the whole chivalry thing, ill help when i can but i wont go totally out of my way, chucking coats down into the puddles etc, acts like that seem more like a flirtatious move than something done purely out of the goodness of your own heart.

But yes i do the basic stuff like open doors and give up my seat to....well older women at least (come on people my age need the exercise hehe) but then again its not only because "its the done thing".....its just nicer Women are (in the main) less scary than men and when you do a good deed in my experience you at least get a smile, most men ive opened the door for barely offer a grunt whereas i nearly always get a "thank you" from women.

 

[Tachi]

Wow this kicked off better than i expected it to, keep up the debate peeps, ill post something more substantial when i can

Don't get your hopes up. Within a page we'll be talking about Final Fantasy X-2 and then Bam!

I've heard a rumour that two members on here are dating each other? >.> Is this true?

Topic change ftw

WHO???

:lol: