freedom of speech vs censorship
- Thread starter mangaman74
- Start date
chaos
The Boss
Overkill on my part.SundayMorningCall said:
On my part, I only think this benefits culture is flawed by design. What is happening is that your giving a roof and food for those who need, but also, for those who will come and kick you dead because they felt like doing so.
I would not go as far as saying taht you're more compassionate than most. After all, the law is somehow designed the way you expelled above.
Anyway, if I were in a situation I needed (or could) claim benefits, I would surely like to have that safety net around. If people didn't like that, there would have been a revolution already, considering how heavy taxes are.
Tachi
Mushi-shi
SundayMorningCall said:
Well, when your the one saying
"you would force an IT wiz to work at a prison as a cleaner? in what way is that fair or reasonable? all that person did was claim money for food and travel while they look for a new job, these people BROKE NO LAW'S yet you suggest we criminalise them?"
Nobody has said anything of the sort. so where you got all that from is completely beyond me.
"the question then is, do you want thoose people on street corners stealing from you or in a cheap house with enough to live on? for me thats a simple choice, but im more compassionate than most it seems"
No....i'd want the little scrounging scum to work for their money. Sod being carried by the tax's of those who are willing to go get a proper job and fit in with society in a civilized manner. Just because you give them a free house and money....doesn't mean they won't steal from you, if you believe that it will....your a bigger fool than you look.
As i said though....the governemt took away parents rights to teach kids right from wrong and because of that we have cocky little ba**ards going up and down the streets threatening people and damaging property.
and when you stand up to them and grab them so they can't run away their so cocky they say "you can't touch me, this is assault" regardless of them trying to mug you or assaulting you to begin with.
I live in a fairly decent area in Luton....however there are still yobs walking around in town and they DO try all sorts. when questioned why they do the things they do....nearly all chavs reply "i was bored init?", "there's nothing to do"
Now thats the reasoning of todays kids. they where bored so they went and mugged someone and because they put up a fight...they gave em a good kick in.
When i was bored at 15.....i'd turn on the tv, the pc or the ps2 or go to the cinema or bowling with the lads...
We live in times of too much political correctness, health and safety. A culture which lacks personal responsibility as something is always somebody else's fault and a culture of suing anyone you can which in turn encourages the health and safety, some of those laws may seem stupid but businesses are just protecting themselves.
Tachi- said:
someone mentioned making people on JSA do community service I think, thats why I brought that up.
the rest of your post reeks of ignorance and arrogance, people are like that for any number of reasons and right and wrong? thoose two terms are highly subjective for a start, if people are breaking the law, the best way to stop it, is to figure out why they do so, personally I think its a combonation of bad education, badly educated parents and deprived upbrining or where they live or even all of the above, to tackle that, I think the government should invest more in Education, Welfare and also create more local things to do and take into account what local people think is causing the problems, im not saying this will fix the problems, but I think its at least a start, and its a damn sight better than labeliing them all scum and writting them off as criminals, society wont get better if you just yell and scream and hit them, you have to actually think about how you solve these problems, being angry and bitter about it solves nothing.
Tachi
Mushi-shi
I'm not saying be bitter and beat them.
What i'm saying is, we've got a load of kids running around with knives and if not to threaten, then to defend themselves.
We shouldn't have 15 year olds running about with a knife.
Now the only way to deter them from doing this is to find out from them themselves. i agree with you on that, they should have help from welfare officers and teams like the one my dept share the floor with....a community team who go out and sit down with these kids and find out why they do what they are doing.
I'm not just pulling things out of a hat. i've spoken to the community team and they agree that these kids, 9/10 will or have said that they where bored. there was nothing better to do.
Because you can't smack kids when they misbehave, and they grow up to learn that nobody can touch them....they get cocky. they know tht by law, nobody can touch them at all.....or they can file it as assault.
with that in their mind....whats to deter them from doing whatever they like? where's the boundaries?
I don't agree with this whole wishywashy approach or political correctness. There's only so far you can go with them....You send the teams in, you have family councilling and other things to try and sort them out....its not working.
So the only way i can think of making things better....is to either give parents back their rights to chastise their kids...Or as soon as everyone leaves compulsory education....their made to do a 2 year stint in the army. It'll instill discapline, show them respect for each other, their elders and show them that the best way to make their lives a productive, civilized life, where their more likely to progress to a higher job with aspirations.
The army teaches you all that. self respect and respect for the way you look is important. i'm more likely to employ someone who's dressed in a suit, speaks properly and is repectful, than someone who walks in in their adidas trackies, nike trainers and a t shirts...swaggers in, slouches in the chair and demands a job, not even speaking properly.
the words "oi blad, gimme a f***in job yeh" won't get them anywhere.
What i'm saying is, we've got a load of kids running around with knives and if not to threaten, then to defend themselves.
We shouldn't have 15 year olds running about with a knife.
Now the only way to deter them from doing this is to find out from them themselves. i agree with you on that, they should have help from welfare officers and teams like the one my dept share the floor with....a community team who go out and sit down with these kids and find out why they do what they are doing.
I'm not just pulling things out of a hat. i've spoken to the community team and they agree that these kids, 9/10 will or have said that they where bored. there was nothing better to do.
Because you can't smack kids when they misbehave, and they grow up to learn that nobody can touch them....they get cocky. they know tht by law, nobody can touch them at all.....or they can file it as assault.
with that in their mind....whats to deter them from doing whatever they like? where's the boundaries?
I don't agree with this whole wishywashy approach or political correctness. There's only so far you can go with them....You send the teams in, you have family councilling and other things to try and sort them out....its not working.
So the only way i can think of making things better....is to either give parents back their rights to chastise their kids...Or as soon as everyone leaves compulsory education....their made to do a 2 year stint in the army. It'll instill discapline, show them respect for each other, their elders and show them that the best way to make their lives a productive, civilized life, where their more likely to progress to a higher job with aspirations.
The army teaches you all that. self respect and respect for the way you look is important. i'm more likely to employ someone who's dressed in a suit, speaks properly and is repectful, than someone who walks in in their adidas trackies, nike trainers and a t shirts...swaggers in, slouches in the chair and demands a job, not even speaking properly.
the words "oi blad, gimme a f***in job yeh" won't get them anywhere.
forced national service is slavery imo
hitting people is wrong, sorry, but I think that should allways be illegal, especially hitting children, thats just sick imo
I really doubt either would solve the problem, they may even make things worse, both are likely to make people angry and bitter at society for forcing them to do national service or being hit as a kid.
hitting people is wrong, sorry, but I think that should allways be illegal, especially hitting children, thats just sick imo
I really doubt either would solve the problem, they may even make things worse, both are likely to make people angry and bitter at society for forcing them to do national service or being hit as a kid.
chaos
The Boss
I said that.Tachi- said:
Issue here is a bit different. There are those genuinely looking and failing to find work.Tachi- said:
Hunt down those abbusing the system, but keep the system around. Everyone who pays taxes knows there will be those that will abbuse the system, but i don't believe that the majority abbuses it.
That's not true:Tachi- said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_p ... ed_Kingdom
If parents are not educating their kids properly, then this is another matter completely different.
Like I said, give them something to do. It's a social issue that needs to be tackled.Tachi- said:
That's what the middle class kid would do, I guess.Tachi- said:
I seriously doubt there are well off chavs. Media created a consumerist society, which feels the need and urge to consume. But not eveyone has the means to consume, so what they do? some of them gets bored and do all this stuff you mentioned, simply because they do no know any better.
Tachi
Mushi-shi
Which is why you ship them into the army.
Give them the knowledge of right and wrong.
instill respect and discapline (i swear i'm spelling that wrong.....nevermind)
as for corporal punishment.....you pretty much validated what i said.
"In a 2004 survey, 71% of the population would support a ban on parents smacking their children.[15] In a 2006 survey, 80% of the population said they believed in smacking, and 73% said that they believed that any ban would cause a sharp deterioration in children's behaviour."
Parents know that without chastising their kids....they will become unrulely. and we'd end up with kids who are too far from help.
SundayMorningCall"]
20, before you claim this means my opinion is less valid, id like to say that doing so is just pointless agism.[/quote]
Come off your high horse a moment.
I was asking out of mere curiosity.
Give them the knowledge of right and wrong.
instill respect and discapline (i swear i'm spelling that wrong.....nevermind)
as for corporal punishment.....you pretty much validated what i said.
"In a 2004 survey, 71% of the population would support a ban on parents smacking their children.[15] In a 2006 survey, 80% of the population said they believed in smacking, and 73% said that they believed that any ban would cause a sharp deterioration in children's behaviour."
Parents know that without chastising their kids....they will become unrulely. and we'd end up with kids who are too far from help.
SundayMorningCall"]
Tachi- said:
20, before you claim this means my opinion is less valid, id like to say that doing so is just pointless agism.[/quote]
Come off your high horse a moment.
I was asking out of mere curiosity.
chaos
The Boss
Sorry, I don't see this way. I see it as an opportunity to teach some responsibility to some. I don't beeliev it should be applied to everyone though. Back home, if you turned 18 and are in a uni, you're free from compulsory military service, if not, you're likely to have to serve for a year.SundayMorningCall said:
Then, I must be a very sick person. I've hit my 3yo nephew when he decided to "play ball" with me.SundayMorningCall said:
he kicked me, I kicked him back, he claimed I've hurted him, I said his kick also hurted me, he says he was just playing, I tell him I was just playing as well.
Did I kick him hard? No, just hard enough for him to get the message.
Was it needed? Yes, because asking him to stop didn't get the message through.
My sister didn't speak to me for a month later
I know for sure, I'm the most strict of their "uncles", but still I'm the only one they always respect. Strangely enough, I'm the favourite uncle for most of them as well - they must be all masochists. =P
I'm pretty sure the older people around here might have been spanked as a kid. I know I've been a lot. And many of your parents might have had as well. Don't believe that most had come the way you paint them.SundayMorningCall said:
Tachi
Mushi-shi
I've been smacked.
When i was very young, with a hand.
when i was older, with a slipper.
older, with a belt.
And i'm thankful for it.
Without that authority keeping me in place i may have become a yob. I'm lucky to have a military based background. every bloke in the family Bar my generation (me and my cousins) have served in the forces. and each generation has been brought up with no more strictness than any other family....the difference we had was that if you didn;t behave, you where shouted at and smacked.
Sitting someone down and talking to them only works when their very young. were talking ages 2-4.
trying to sit a teenager down and instill a sense of right and wrong aswell as respect and boundaries is pointless. they won't listen to you and you'll probably end up so wound up that you'll want to just walk away and give up.
When i was very young, with a hand.
when i was older, with a slipper.
older, with a belt.
And i'm thankful for it.
Without that authority keeping me in place i may have become a yob. I'm lucky to have a military based background. every bloke in the family Bar my generation (me and my cousins) have served in the forces. and each generation has been brought up with no more strictness than any other family....the difference we had was that if you didn;t behave, you where shouted at and smacked.
Sitting someone down and talking to them only works when their very young. were talking ages 2-4.
trying to sit a teenager down and instill a sense of right and wrong aswell as respect and boundaries is pointless. they won't listen to you and you'll probably end up so wound up that you'll want to just walk away and give up.
chaos said:Sorry, I don't see this way. I see it as an opportunity to teach some responsibility to some. I don't beeliev it should be applied to everyone though. Back home, if you turned 18 and are in a uni, you're free from compulsory military service, if not, you're likely to have to serve for a year.SundayMorningCall said:
Then, I must be a very sick person. I've hit my 3yo nephew when he decided to "play ball" with me.SundayMorningCall said:
he kicked me, I kicked him back, he claimed I've hurted him, I said his kick also hurted me, he says he was just playing, I tell him I was just playing as well.
Did I kick him hard? No, just hard enough for him to get the message.
Was it needed? Yes, because asking him to stop didn't get the message through.
My sister didn't speak to me for a month later
I know for sure, I'm the most strict of their "uncles", but still I'm the only one they always respect. Strangely enough, I'm the favourite uncle for most of them as well - they must be all masochists. =P
I'm pretty sure the older people around here might have been spanked as a kid. I know I've been a lot. And many of your parents might have had as well. Don't believe that most had come the way you paint them.SundayMorningCall said:
so, forcing people to do a job that they dont want to do and telling them how much they get paid and stuff and giving them no say in this, how is that not Slavery? all you need do is say only the black kids and were back in 1709 again
well, my respect for you just decreased, I think violence should only be used as a very last resort, and hitting children is something that makes me feel physichally ill. I wasnt hit as a child, my parents treated me well and I have a good relationship with both of them, even though they are divorced.
Tachi
Mushi-shi
No.
Don't get me wrong, i can have a debate with someone.....but i wouldn't use such pathetic methods to slander what they have to say.
In reality my age is not too much different to yours.
a year out roughly.
Fair enough though....you think hitting children is wrong.
i believe it instills right and wrong when used appropriatly and doesn't turn into abuse.
But thats the way things go....everyone has an opinion.
Right....i know that things can turn into other topics.....but you can stop with that last remark right now.
Its a system. like quing up in a supermarket. everyone has to que up to pay for things and there's order and balance in that system.
for abiding that system everyone comes out more or less the same as each other.
Now those who que jump are those who need to be told off for it....and made to join the line properly and in this way it instills order in them.
Now making the army complulsory for a year when you leave compulsory education would be no different to standing in that que. If you abide the rules....you'll come out pretty much the same as everyone else, respectful of each other and those around you.
in this way....the line is a metaphor for compulsory education and if you see it like that....it works.
in the army you don't get beaten. you get punished in a manner that works for ironing out unrulely people.
As for the beating as a child....its not a beating. its a smack.
You've never been smacked and you have a good relationship with your parents?
Well i've been smacked and i too have a very good relationship with my parents. (to set things aside though. their still together)
Don't get me wrong, i can have a debate with someone.....but i wouldn't use such pathetic methods to slander what they have to say.
In reality my age is not too much different to yours.
a year out roughly.
Fair enough though....you think hitting children is wrong.
i believe it instills right and wrong when used appropriatly and doesn't turn into abuse.
But thats the way things go....everyone has an opinion.
Sunday said:
Right....i know that things can turn into other topics.....but you can stop with that last remark right now.
Its a system. like quing up in a supermarket. everyone has to que up to pay for things and there's order and balance in that system.
for abiding that system everyone comes out more or less the same as each other.
Now those who que jump are those who need to be told off for it....and made to join the line properly and in this way it instills order in them.
Now making the army complulsory for a year when you leave compulsory education would be no different to standing in that que. If you abide the rules....you'll come out pretty much the same as everyone else, respectful of each other and those around you.
in this way....the line is a metaphor for compulsory education and if you see it like that....it works.
in the army you don't get beaten. you get punished in a manner that works for ironing out unrulely people.
As for the beating as a child....its not a beating. its a smack.
You've never been smacked and you have a good relationship with your parents?
Well i've been smacked and i too have a very good relationship with my parents. (to set things aside though. their still together)
Sorry for not putting a real input in, but whenever I read the title of this thread, its in Wendy Testaburger's voice in my head. Around 25 minutes-ish into Bigger, Longer & Uncut, out in the South Park elementary playground in the film Wendy says something like "This is about freedom of speech! About censorship! Can't you guys be more political, like Gregory?" then Stan sings his little song.
Again. Real sorry for interupting the flow of things, I just needed to get that off my chest and tell you how irritating it is to have that high pitched voice in my head whenever I click onto Random Chit-Chat.
Again. Real sorry for interupting the flow of things, I just needed to get that off my chest and tell you how irritating it is to have that high pitched voice in my head whenever I click onto Random Chit-Chat.
ayase
State Alchemist
I agree with just about everything chaos has to say here. I would say conscription is wrong (you shouldn't have to fight in wars against your wishes) but how is a year or two of compulsory National Service any different to school or jury duty? You don't have a say in the matter about those things.chaos said:Sorry, I don't see this way. I see it as an opportunity to teach some responsibility to some. I don't beeliev it should be applied to everyone though. Back home, if you turned 18 and are in a uni, you're free from compulsory military service, if not, you're likely to have to serve for a year.SundayMorningCall said:
Then, I must be a very sick person. I've hit my 3yo nephew when he decided to "play ball" with me.SundayMorningCall said:
he kicked me, I kicked him back, he claimed I've hurted him, I said his kick also hurted me, he says he was just playing, I tell him I was just playing as well.
Did I kick him hard? No, just hard enough for him to get the message.
Was it needed? Yes, because asking him to stop didn't get the message through.
My sister didn't speak to me for a month later
I know for sure, I'm the most strict of their "uncles", but still I'm the only one they always respect. Strangely enough, I'm the favourite uncle for most of them as well - they must be all masochists. =P
I'm pretty sure the older people around here might have been spanked as a kid. I know I've been a lot. And many of your parents might have had as well. Don't believe that most had come the way you paint them.SundayMorningCall said:
It would be great Sunday, absolutely bloody brilliant, if people behaved with respect and consideration towards others without having to be taught. It would also be great if they could read, write and calculate without having to be taught though wouldn't it? And some people can be taught respect purely through vocal means. Many however, can't. I witnessed a kid behaving terribly the other day, he was refusing to stay with his parents in a busy town centre and wanted to go in the opposite direction to them. They tried to talk to him and he was screaming like hell, grabbed a lamppost and refused to let go. His dad tried to talk to him and he just got louder and more obstinate - eventually the dad prised him of the lamppost and smacked him. He continued crying (even slightly less so than he was before!) but he went with his parents. An older lady nearby remarked to her friend "There was no need for that, was there?" I almost asked her what she would have done under the circumstances - left him there and let him get lost? Possibly she'd never had children herself, or her children had behaved better. People are different, some can be reasoned with whereas some need tough love, and that goes equally for adults as it does for children.
Human nature by default is very self serving - I don't believe people are inherently good and frankly, if it weren't for parents, schools and laws people would go around raping and murdering whoever they liked for little or no reason - and the fact that more people are doing so in the UK in increasing numbers (as we've discussed several examples of on here recently) tells me that parenting, schooling and the justice system all need to be reformed and to some extent yes, made tougher. While I don't agree with everything Tach has said, I certainly think it's possible that the softly-softly approach could be what has given us the kind of yob culture which is developing today. It needs to be recognised that in some situations, whether it's parents or teachers disciplining a child or the police subduing a criminal, physical force is needed.