freedom of speech vs censorship

M

mangaman74

Akatsuki
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/20 ... vacy-claim

Wikipedia is being sued by two German men who were convicted of killing an actor back in 1990 citing an infringment of their privacy.

Under German law, once the prison term has been served and a certain period of time has passed, Germany's courts stop the names of criminals being used in news reports - they have to be referred to as Mr L or the perpetrator.

They should be able to go on and be resocialised, and lead a life without being publicly stigmatised" for their crime, Stopp told the New York Times. "A criminal has a right to privacy, too, and a right to be left alone.
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An example of this privacy law is that the Guardian cannot name the killers as it is available in Germany.

The German version of Wikipedia has already removed the names from its' files but the lawyer for the killers wants the names removed from the English language version as well.
 
Lol I bet that's annoying. Future possible employer googles your name and sees you're a convicted murderer.

The criminals names should not be used in news reports hmm, but wiki isn't a news report. The way I look at this is that records of past news papers are kept. Official Case files are kept though I don't know the laws on how much information you can obtain from them under the freedom of information act however you could look up the men's names from the records of newspapers from the time.

My point here is that wiki should be looked at as a storage of information. It's just easier and quicker to retrieve that information then in this case for example going through reams of stored newspapers in microfilm.

It's not a news report, it's not pushing the information into everyone's face, you still have to look it up. Removing it from wiki is in the same area as saying we must remove all stored information about said event/names. From a more extremist view, it's selectively erasing history to influence the future.
 
Asdrubael said:
Removing it from wiki is in the same area as saying we must remove all stored information about said event/names. From a more extremist view, it's selectively erasing history to influence the future.
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Yeah, and that's kind of hypocritical given that another German law states you can be locked up for publicly denying certain events which it can be proved took place in the past.

I think it's possible for some serious criminals (even murderers in certain circumstances - but the circumstances do matter) to reform and lead productive lives, but the fact that they are responsible for someone else's suffering, and that other people are aware of that fact, is a stigma they should have to live with as their long-term punishment. Some people will treat them badly because of that but so what? Their lives might be ruined by that stigmatisation, but both they and the law should remember that someone else's life was ended at their hands.

This is the people concerned, by the way. Notice how in accordance with the law, I didn't name them. ;)
 
If they'd shut up & put up they'd have been fine. Now they have only drawn attention to their own past crime & made things worse for themselves.


I oppose censorship, but don't really care much about freedom of speech.
 
Neither.

Way i see it, its an eye for an eye. They killed a guy so they should have died too. They revoked all human rights the moment they killed someone.

As for freedom of speech, thats always (imo anyway) been pointless, until such time that people can use freedom of speech in a worthwhile and non profitable/sladerous way and not aim to enforce beliefs on anyone, humankind are too primitive to use such a thing.
 
Freedom of speech is important, but what they must remeber is that your freedom ends where other people's rights begins.

I'm against this protection on former criminals. While I understand the stigmatizing people side of things, I'd be really furious to learn (s)he is a re-offender, after (s)he re-offended on me.

Eye for an eye don't work as well. There's been to many executions already, but things haven't changed.

A change i society would be more important, but it takes time, more time than any politician have at any office to actually consider doing anything.
 
An eye for an eye. Some of the old punishments are interesting. A thief steals then the hand he used to steal with is cut off. That's what used to happen. Capital punishment I don't think so. People can be wrongly found guilty. Besides, my own feelings, I would not want someone else to kill a person who has done something that bad to me. I would rather his life be taken away from him via true life imprisonment. In until the day he dies, it can break a person to see his life going, slowly.

I agree that after a criminal has served the sentence given, the names no longer need to be broadcast all over the news and constantly be brought up again and again. Ideally the sentence given is suitable to fit the crime. If they aren't given a chance they won't see any other path than crime again. They may feel regret (though I know people who see a little jail time as just part of the 'job')

However saying names can't be shown in a newspaper is different than saying we must remove all stored information regarding the names. That is what I see wiki as, as storage of information.
 
I see what your saying....let them rot in prison till they die.
But why continue to pay for them? your tax's go towards keeping them in there. Towards paying for their food and a roof over their head. Tbh if someone killed part of my family i'd want swift justice. i wouldn't want to pay for the person for the rest of my life.

So after a very intensive court case on the matter. and if there's valid and solid proof (eye witnesses, fingerprints, DNA at crime scene) then i'd sentence them to death within the week.

Prisons aren't working. offenders go to prison, meet worse offenders, learn new tricks and get let out. They don't change, rehabilitation doesn't work because they've been taken away from the real world so even if they do turn a new leaf.....they can't fit in properly, they've got a criminal record so as far as getting a job.....it's not worth bothering to apply for a job.
So the easiest thing to do to get money, is to re offend.

Maybe the old ways where best? as mentioned....you steal....you lose your hand. atleast you (as a criminal) would think twice before re offending. Personally i think that most kids should have to join the army as soon as they leave school. get some proper manners and respect for superiors.

As the government took away the right to instill discipline in their kids...we've got a load of Yobs running around destroying things, mugging people and in cases beating people to death without cause or reasoning. and the government wonder why this has all appeared all of a sudden? Bring back 1970's cops their not wishywashy muppets. They where a proper police force that instilled law and order.

Yeah there where a few cops who went abit too far and beat people up abit too much. but its better to have a police force that you can repremand when things get out of hand, than a Yob that as of yet....if they went to prison, won't actually suffer at all.
 
Tachi- said:
I see what your saying....let them rot in prison till they die.
But why continue to pay for them? your tax's go towards keeping them in there. Towards paying for their food and a roof over their head. Tbh if someone killed part of my family i'd want swift justice. i wouldn't want to pay for the person for the rest of my life.

So after a very intensive court case on the matter. and if there's valid and solid proof (eye witnesses, fingerprints, DNA at crime scene) then i'd sentence them to death within the week.

Prisons aren't working. offenders go to prison, meet worse offenders, learn new tricks and get let out. They don't change, rehabilitation doesn't work because they've been taken away from the real world so even if they do turn a new leaf.....they can't fit in properly, they've got a criminal record so as far as getting a job.....it's not worth bothering to apply for a job.
So the easiest thing to do to get money, is to re offend.

Maybe the old ways where best? as mentioned....you steal....you lose your hand. atleast you (as a criminal) would think twice before re offending. Personally i think that most kids should have to join the army as soon as they leave school. get some proper manners and respect for superiors.

As the government took away the right to instill discipline in their kids...we've got a load of Yobs running around destroying things, mugging people and in cases beating people to death without cause or reasoning. and the government wonder why this has all appeared all of a sudden? Bring back 1970's cops their not wishywashy muppets. They where a proper police force that instilled law and order.

Yeah there where a few cops who went abit too far and beat people up abit too much. but its better to have a police force that you can repremand when things get out of hand, than a Yob that as of yet....if they went to prison, won't actually suffer at all.
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the day someone with your views is Prime Minister, is the day I emigrate.
 
SundayMorningCall said:
Tachi- said:
I see what your saying....let them rot in prison till they die.
But why continue to pay for them? your tax's go towards keeping them in there. Towards paying for their food and a roof over their head. Tbh if someone killed part of my family i'd want swift justice. i wouldn't want to pay for the person for the rest of my life.

So after a very intensive court case on the matter. and if there's valid and solid proof (eye witnesses, fingerprints, DNA at crime scene) then i'd sentence them to death within the week.

Prisons aren't working. offenders go to prison, meet worse offenders, learn new tricks and get let out. They don't change, rehabilitation doesn't work because they've been taken away from the real world so even if they do turn a new leaf.....they can't fit in properly, they've got a criminal record so as far as getting a job.....it's not worth bothering to apply for a job.
So the easiest thing to do to get money, is to re offend.

Maybe the old ways where best? as mentioned....you steal....you lose your hand. atleast you (as a criminal) would think twice before re offending. Personally i think that most kids should have to join the army as soon as they leave school. get some proper manners and respect for superiors.

As the government took away the right to instill discipline in their kids...we've got a load of Yobs running around destroying things, mugging people and in cases beating people to death without cause or reasoning. and the government wonder why this has all appeared all of a sudden? Bring back 1970's cops their not wishywashy muppets. They where a proper police force that instilled law and order.

Yeah there where a few cops who went abit too far and beat people up abit too much. but its better to have a police force that you can repremand when things get out of hand, than a Yob that as of yet....if they went to prison, won't actually suffer at all.
Click to expand...

the day someone with your views is Prime Minister, is the day I emigrate.
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I had a gun pointed to my head and I was searched for drugs / knives because I was into metal, back in Brazil. It's one of the things I've ran away from, so if it happens here, I'm out.

Give police this power you're saying they need and you will see anyone who is different being bullyed. Be it goths or cosplayers.

I'm still unsure of how bad crime is in the UK though. I'm not here long enough to compare now and the old times, but what I can say is that after living through state controlled newspapers, I've learned to distrust these sort of reports. What are the official figures? Is crime really on the rise compared in relative measures?
A quick google shows me this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/1 ... ion-impact

Also, wiki and others sources shows me that UK is still one of the countries with the lowest violent crime rates:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita
 
chaos said:
Give police this power you're saying they need and you will see anyone who is different being bullyed. Be it goths or cosplayers.

I'm still unsure of how bad crime is in the UK though. I'm not here long enough to compare now and the old times, but what I can say is that after living through state controlled newspapers, I've learned to distrust these sort of reports. What are the official figures? Is crime really on the rise compared in relative measures?
A quick google shows me this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/1 ... ion-impact

Also, wiki and others sources shows me that UK is still one of the countries with the lowest violent crime rates:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita
Click to expand...

Don't trust government statistics as there are always ways of massaging the figures to show what you want - just look at the unemployment figures to see that (if you are on New Deal you don't count as being unemployed for instance).

As for the prison situation - cut back on the benefits criminals get, such as access to television, shopping trips. Also make the time stick - a life term should mean spending the rest of your life behind bars.

Also I would be wary about giving police too much power in case there are more cases like the Jean Charles de Menezes shooting (how the police got away with that I still don't know :evil: )
 
First off: I agree, freedom of speech is important, but in the case of those german killers, wiki isn't a news report, so how can they ask for their names to be removed from it when it doesn't fall under what the court says has to do so.

Second off: Censorship is really annoying in many respects, from the most minor of things to things that, perhaps 10 years ago would never even be considered to be censored. Our country has gone mad with it i think, so many things have had to be censored because they think its either racist or otherwise, and its stupid. What was it...they changed the humpty dumpty thing so its got a happy ending or something, when the whole bloody point was to get over the fact that, sitting on walls can be dangerous =/

Third off: In respect to what tachi said, i kinda echo what chaos said(bar having experienced stuff like he has). I also hate the idea of killing someone, whether by law its been allowed or whatever. No matter what the case, be it a civilian doing so, or a court, its still wrong. Justified murder is still murder, no matter what you say against it.

I do agree, prisons and rehabilitation aren't working, however they need to find ways to improve it on a large scale than small scale things they may perhaps do. In terms of ideas used, the alcohol laws may help to a certain extent, but not enough to keep people from doing things that land them in jail.
 
Think what you want.

at the end of the day. i was giving an example of how things might move backwards to move forwards.


If you think about it.
the 1970's police force where strict, slightly violent in their interigation methods....but apart from that they where a "no ****" force who instilled the law. and in my opinion...they did it well.

I don't believe anything statistically given by the government. they cover things up and show figures to the public and the rest of the world that they feel the world actually wants to see, or whatevers in the governements interests.

i do however, trust what i see when i see that a father/husband/son has gone outside of his house to ask yobs to stop destroying his property or to move on....and they kick him to death. a completely unprovoked attack in cases.

I myself have walked home in year 10 after staying at school to finish off art coursework. and during the winter nights...i walked home along a busy main road with lights and cars moving up and down constantly....a group of 4 chavs stopped me and one punched me in the face, giving me a nosebleed. i stood there holding my face as they laughed and walked off. I'd done nothing to deserve that. On the way home i called the police....and was told "without a witness, we can't do anything" It never used to be that wishywashy/ the police used to go to the residence of the person who's been attacked and take a statement. (i know this because when i was young, the police came to my house to take a statement because someone was beaten up outside our old house.)

My friend Taylor was stabbed by her ex and i found out months after the funeral and everything.....she was stabbed over 40 times.
Now the sad low life has claimed that he had mental problems (if i remember correct its like diminished responisbility or something) he's in prison.....and has a tv in his cell. food 3 times a day, a roof over his head and still alive.....I pay my tax's so that, that scumbag can live a comfortable life and will be out and free in a few years.
Now tell me that, thats justice.....tell me that its equal for someone to die and the killer to live comfortably then get out and claim the dole and can still live his life.

if not death....then justice on him should be; living in his cell. with a sheet on the floor. food once a day. and no contact with the outside world for the rest of his pityful life.
 
Guess we wil have to agree to disagree.
I'm in favour of making the law being enforced, rather than making it harsher.

Also, you write as if time in prison is a breeze...
 
There is too much of a blame culture nowadays

Go on a shooting spree - blame Grand Theft Auto

Stab someone - had mental problems

People just use excuses to get out heavier sentances.

The use of human rights laws by criminals should be stopped as well.
 
mangaman74 said:
The use of human rights laws by criminals should be stopped as well.
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Take human rights from them and this is what might happen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carandiru_massacre

"The massacre led to consternation amongst other Brazilian inmates, some of whom formed a criminal organization called the First Command of the Capital in 1993. "

This gang is the main reason I decided to move out, they literally created a state of chaos in the city, where official numbers says there was 100+ of murders in a weekend, in a single city. The way, violent crime is nothing, but a symptom of social unrest. I could be wrong, as I don't know any chavs or gang people in here, but I'm pretty sure they must all be in the lower end of wealth distribution.

Find jobs for everyone, hunt down benefit thieves with hefty fines and prison / community work time. As a matter of fact, put these people out to job seeker allowance and make it comunity work. Place kids in schools and ensure they do understand what living in a society means.
 
chaos said:
mangaman74 said:
The use of human rights laws by criminals should be stopped as well.
Click to expand...
Take human rights from them and this is what might happen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carandiru_massacre

"The massacre led to consternation amongst other Brazilian inmates, some of whom formed a criminal organization called the First Command of the Capital in 1993. "

This gang is the main reason I decided to move out, they literally created a state of chaos in the city, where official numbers says there was 100+ of murders in a weekend, in a single city. The way, violent crime is nothing, but a symptom of social unrest. I could be wrong, as I don't know any chavs or gang people in here, but I'm pretty sure they must all be in the lower end of wealth distribution.

Find jobs for everyone, hunt down benefit thieves with hefty fines and prison / community work time. As a matter of fact, put these people out to job seeker allowance and make it comunity work. Place kids in schools and ensure they do understand what living in a society means.
Click to expand...

I have no problem in cracking down on benefit cheats, but why force thoose who are legitamatley claiming benefits to do work they may not want to do and that may be of no use to them, you would force an IT wiz to work at a prison as a cleaner? in what way is that fair or reasonable? all that person did was claim money for food and travel while they look for a new job, these people BROKE NO LAW'S yet you suggest we criminalise them?

Finding jobs for everyone is also a problem, the government could DO ALOT more on jobs and education imo, but realisticly, theyre never gonna find something for everyone, you have to accept theyre will allways be unemployed people, the question then is, do you want thoose people on street corners stealing from you or in a cheap house with enough to live on? for me thats a simple choice, but im more compassionate than most it seems.
 
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