TYPE-MOON Thread - Tsukihime, Fate, The Garden of Sinners, Witch on the Holy Night - Discussion and Guide

[SAHO]

To keep it short and sweet. This will be a discussion thread for TYPE-MOON series.
★ General talk
★ Announcements/News/Updates/Events
★ Artworks/Illustrations
★ ...whatever else comes to mind, tbc for now ¯\(ツ)/¯

Have fun!

What is TYPE-MOON?​

​

TYPE-MOON (タイプムーン, Taipu Mūn?) is a Japanese company best known for its visual novels. It is known by the name Notes Co., Ltd. (有限会社ノーツ, Yūgen gaisha Nōtsu?) for its publishing and corporate operations. After releasing the popular visual novel Tsukihime and its related works as a doujin circle, TYPE-MOON incorporated and commercially released the immensely popular visual novel Fate/stay night. These and other TYPE-MOON works have since received several anime, manga, light novels, video games, and CD dramas that have amassed a global fanbase.

TYPE-MOON Wiki

 

[Vincentdante]

This took a few rewrites because I kept elaborating on things. Then the list got ridiculous as I started including stuff like the VN's, light novels and drama CD's. So I ended up cutting it down drastically, and now I have an "anime only no further elaboration" newbies guide to Fate.

EDIT 05.07.2022 - added links to official sources to viewing these.

Witch on the Holy Night

Upcoming movie from UFOTable. A sort of prequal to Tsukihime (think Fate/Zero). As there is no Tsukihime anime watch this whenever.

Garden of Sinners

8 movies released as a bluray boxset by AoA and MVM. There is a 9th movie but AoA have delisted it and MVM haven't released it (yet). Can be watched independently.

Fate Stay Night ---

--- Saber Route

Released by Studio Deen, get's a bad rep because it's dated and not done by UFOtable but is a competent adaptation barring a few moments. Worth watching because they animated the archer vs berserker fight the madlads. This routes primary purpose is to lay the foundations for everything else and provide exposition.

--- Unlimited Blade Works

Released by UFOtable as a series or a movie by Deen. Just watch the UFOtable series, it assumes you have seen the Saber route already as it forgoes the world building from that route and goes into a more personal story for Shirou.

--- Heaven's Feel

Movie trilogy by UFOtable. Doesn't elaborate further, first movie jump cuts through all the early game exposition and you will be lost without some prior knowledge from the previous series. Great trilogy when you have all that knowledge though.

Fate/Zero

Sequal/prequal to the Heaven's Feel route. They made this one first and worked backwards resulting in all the confusion this series is known for. A lot of folk like this as a starting point but with Heaven's Feel out in the wild it's "imo" better to view it afterwards as the writers intended.

The case files of El-Melloi II

Released on blu-ray by AoA and MVM. It's a series that bridges the gap between Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night, and also references Fate/Grand Order a bit. Good mystery series, I highly recomend if you like this universe.

Fate/Apocrypha - Fate/Extra - Prisma Illya - Carnival Phantasm - Fate/Prototype

Alternate universes written by guest writers all of whom Nasu commisioned to write with varying quality. Viewing is entirely optional based on how much you enjoy the idea of that show's premis.

 

[Vincentdante]

Now for Fate/Grand Order. Sticking with the Anime friendly viewing order format, this is both easier and harder because not being content to make Fate/Zero into an anime and work backwards, they decided to do it again on an even bigger work. But at least Fate/Grand Order doesn't have "routes" and is a far more linear story.

Anyway here is how FGO plays out.

Fate/Grand Order: The First Order

A movie released on Blu-Ray by AoA and MVM (also on Crunchyroll) this is the set up to the whole thing. It explains the existence of the singularities and what will happen if no one does anything about it.

Orleans
Septem
Okeanos
London
E Pluribus Unum

The first five singularites, unanimated.

Camelot

Sixth singularity released as a 2 parter series of movies. Released on blu-ray only by AoA so far. Hopefully MVM get this too. Affectionatly known as Seiba the movie.

Babylonia

Seventh Singularity. Gilgamesh saves the world and calls you a mongrel. Released only by AoA once again but is a full 24 episode series.

Solomon

The final singularity, coming soon to blu-ray from AoA and available on Crunchyroll. The Avengers endgame of Fate.

Shinjuku
Agartha
Shimosa
Salem

Not animated.

Moonlight Lostroom

Crunchyroll only.

The Lostbelts

There is no point going any further than this for an anime only list

 

[João Gomes]

Can't wait to get into street fights with fate nerds about whether watch order is important or not!! Spoiler it's not, meet me outside where I'll promptly escape as the sensitive, afraid sort I am

Need Ufotable to get back to this series. Is Hollow Ataraxia something that would make for an interesting anime, @Vincentdante? I think I read it'd be hard to adapt with not a lot of action but I'd love to see it.

 

[Vincentdante]

Can't wait to get into street fights with fate nerds about whether watch order is important or not!! Spoiler it's not, meet me outside where I'll promptly escape as the sensitive, afraid sort I am

Need Ufotable to get back to this series. Is Hollow Ataraxia something that would make for an interesting anime, @Vincentdante? I think I read it'd be hard to adapt with not a lot of action but I'd love to see it.

Jokes on you, Carnival Phantasm is the secret viewing order we all adhere to.

Ehh no comment on Hollow Ataraxia as I still believe the saber route is unadaptable for the same reason and believe Deen did the best they could.

 

[Takei Daloui]

Can't wait to get into street fights with fate nerds about whether watch order is important or not!! Spoiler it's not, meet me outside where I'll promptly escape as the sensitive, afraid sort I am

Need Ufotable to get back to this series. Is Hollow Ataraxia something that would make for an interesting anime, @Vincentdante? I think I read it'd be hard to adapt with not a lot of action but I'd love to see it.

I think there's some parts that make sense to be watched in the right order. For example if you watched Case Files before Zero, you wouldn't know half the story it calls back to.
Whether you watch Zero before or after one of the Stay/Night series though... Opinions vary heavily.

And I have no idea it works with the sixth and seventh singularities since Camelot got released and finished after the seventh singularity did.

 

[Afherlan]

Is Hollow Ataraxia something that would make for an interesting anime, @Vincentdante? I think I read it'd be hard to adapt with not a lot of action but I'd love to see it.

I think it would, but it would be a weird one in case it does get adapted. It would have to be an experience where the watcher "can't" have the ability to drop it since a lot in the middle would be SoL / comedic stuff (think "Today's Menu for the Emiya Family") which some would bail out on prematurely, so a TV series would not be received all too well. At the same time, you would need to get those scenes in as they're such a part of the narrative and complement the beauty of the serious moments. A "The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya" length movie could perhaps work, but a lot of the comedic / SoL parts would be axed from the VN nevertheless.

Personally, I would love it. I interpreted Hollow Ataraxia as being slightly critical of the types of franchises that Fate has since become, which is quite ironic.

 

[Geriatric hedgehog]

Nice one @Vincentdante, very nicely summarised and you reminded me to get back into Case Files, which I'd started with one episode after UBW during my Fate Grand Re-watch™, but then completely forgot about after Heaven's Feel, which I just kept re-watching for the grand spectacle that it is (that Saber-Rider showdown is just epic).

The watch-order is definitely more difficult to recommend (unlike Monogatari) especially with Zero & Stay/night/UBW, given that they both spoil each other. I definitely second that Heaven's Feel skips a lot of exposition and shouldn't be watched without the others first. I watched Zero first when I got into this series, but in retrospect would now myself watch in the order Stay/night (Deen) -> UBW -> Zero -> Heaven's Feel.

Hollow Ataraxia I have no idea about (again I don't believe the VN was released in the West?) but would definitely be very interested if it were ever adapted in anime form.

 

[Afherlan]

Hollow Ataraxia I have no idea about (again I don't believe the VN was released in the West?) but would definitely be very interested if it were ever adapted in anime form.

It's the sequel to the original VN, released a year or so after it.

As I say, I loved it really much. It felt like a really good send-off when it came to the VN experience of Fate. A good mix of fun and dramatic stuff, introducing several new characters as well as developing old ones in a neat way.

 

[Vincentdante]

And I have no idea it works with the sixth and seventh singularities since Camelot got released and finished after the seventh singularity did.

It's stranger than that. They started with First Order, went aaaaallll the way past everything to Lostroom, hopped backwards into Babylon, then went back again to Camelot, then forward to Solomon. No idea what's next lol.

To answer your question though the Babylon anime makes a few key references to Camelot, so I would say if possible watch camlot first but of course it's too late for many of us lol.

 

[Vincentdante]

Nice one @Vincentdante, very nicely summarised and you reminded me to get back into Case Files, which I'd started with one episode after UBW during my Fate Grand Re-watch™, but then completely forgot about after Heaven's Feel, which I just kept re-watching for the grand spectacle that it is (that Saber-Rider showdown is just epic).

The watch-order is definitely more difficult to recommend (unlike Monogatari) especially with Zero & Stay/night/UBW, given that they both spoil each other. I definitely second that Heaven's Feel skips a lot of exposition and shouldn't be watched without the others first. I watched Zero first when I got into this series, but in retrospect would now myself watch in the order Stay/night (Deen) -> UBW -> Zero -> Heaven's Feel.

Hollow Ataraxia I have no idea about (again I don't believe the VN was released in the West?) but would definitely be very interested if it were ever adapted in anime form.

Thanks I am glad it was helpful

As a personal recomendation for Case Files, watch the whole series through then watch Fate/Grand Order: First Order afterwards. You will really hate the antagonist of that movie more so doing that lol.

 

[João Gomes]

I think there's some parts that make sense to be watched in the right order. For example if you watched Case Files before Zero, you wouldn't know half the story it calls back to.
Whether you watch Zero before or after one of the Stay/Night series though... Opinions vary heavily.

And I have no idea it works with the sixth and seventh singularities since Camelot got released and finished after the seventh singularity did.

I'm joking and only because it's something that always comes up when discussing Fate lol

I didn't know a thing about watch order when I got started on Fate and I love it just the same*, I think there's enough new stuff and angles to discover irrespective of watch order.

If we get into Grand Order, then I'm completely lost, so I won't even try!

I will say Deen has the best OP the series has ever seen - maybe Zero OP2 gets close.

*(not unconditionally - it's mostly Ufotable's take of Fate, so I guess I should say I love Ufotable's version of Fate?)

I think it would, but it would be a weird one in case it does get adapted. It would have to be an experience where the watcher "can't" have the ability to drop it since a lot in the middle would be SoL / comedic stuff (think "Today's Menu for the Emiya Family") which some would bail out on prematurely, so a TV series would not be received all too well. At the same time, you would need to get those scenes in as they're such a part of the narrative and complement the beauty of the serious moments. A "The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya" length movie could perhaps work, but a lot of the comedic / SoL parts would be axed from the VN nevertheless.

Personally, I would love it. I interpreted Hollow Ataraxia as being slightly critical of the types of franchises that Fate has since become, which is quite ironic.

That sounds pretty interesting and in any case, they could maybe take some liberties in regards to event order in a possible adaptation.

They've got their hands full with Demon Slayer and that other movie they're working on, so if it happens, it's not gonna be right away.

 

[Vincentdante]

If we get into Grand Order, then I'm completely lost, so I won't even try!

I went over Grand Order in my second post if it helps.

 

[João Gomes]

I went over Grand Order in my second post if it helps.

I did read it but I was more alluding to the fact that I didn't think much of what I tried of it, so I didn't even bother looking into it! I watched Babylonia - it looks excellent and the fights look pristine, but looks alone can't carry a show. I also watched the prequel OVA (first order?) and I was like hmmmeeeeh.

 

[Takei Daloui]

It's stranger than that. They started with First Order, went aaaaallll the way past everything to Lostroom, hopped backwards into Babylon, then went back again to Camelot, then forward to Solomon. No idea what's next lol.

To answer your question though the Babylon anime makes a few key references to Camelot, so I would say if possible watch camlot first but of course it's too late for many of us lol.

At the very least I'm glad Babylon didn't spoil Camelot. It showed brief parts of it but didn't go into detail of what went down, so it let those two films still be unspoilt. You know, for those who didn't yet know the story. Not for me, who remembers that singularity so well that I'll likely end up nitpicking the films. Can't help it when it's my favourite though.

I do understand why they made this giant leap though. Most likely a full Grand Order anime was never on the table. Fate is popular but it would be overloaded if they released too many Fate shows at once, and the time it would take to get through the earlier stuff would take forever. In addition, they did a survey to find out what singularities people wanted adapted. People choose 6 and 7 because they were seen as the best of the lot, since by around 4/5 I think they had found their footing more and these ones had some of the best story beats, especially being the conclusion of all that in the Solomon film afterwards.

Thanks I am glad it was helpful

As a personal recomendation for Case Files, watch the whole series through then watch Fate/Grand Order: First Order afterwards. You will really hate the antagonist of that movie more so doing that lol.

... Oh you monster. I know what you're doing here and that's cruel. I approve.

 

[Vincentdante]

I did read it but I was more alluding to the fact that I didn't think much of what I tried of it, so I didn't even bother looking into it! I watched Babylonia - it looks excellent and the fights look pristine, but looks alone can't carry a show. I also watched the prequel OVA (first order?) and I was like hmmmeeeeh.

Yeah First Order is the Saber route of FGO. Not that compelling but gives you an idea on what's going on.

I won't hear anything bad about Camelot and Babylonia though They are two top tier stories written in the Fate universe lol.

I do understand why they made this giant leap though. Most likely a full Grand Order anime was never on the table. Fate is popular but it would be overloaded if they released too many Fate shows at once, and the time it would take to get through the earlier stuff would take forever. In addition, they did a survey to find out what singularities people wanted adapted. People choose 6 and 7 because they were seen as the best of the lot, since by around 4/5 I think they had found their footing more and these ones had some of the best story beats, especially being the conclusion of all that in the Solomon film afterwards.

Oh yeah I fully agree. The first 5 singularities are between mediocre to bad. London was probably the better one of all those but singularities 6 and 7 were written by Nasu himself and the quality of those stories speak for themselves. I wouldn't mind if they animated Shinjuku and Salem just for entertainment value but I think those will be off the table as well considering their placement.

... Oh you monster. I know what you're doing here and that's cruel. I approve.

Ahh we are both in the know lol.

 

[Vincentdante]

Old news, but it wasn't really ever posted so not sure if it's common knowledge but UFOtable have announced their new series in the Nasuverse. I'm very excited for this one (since the VN will never be translated at this rate)

Fun fact: I actually forgot about this one until now lol


Also new Fate series in general has been announced.

 

[Geriatric hedgehog]

It felt like a really good send-off when it came to the VN experience of Fate.

This is not helping my fomo! Still, was pretty happy with the send off in Heaven's Feel so can't complain but likewise would be very happy with a ufotable take on that VN.

It's stranger than that. They started with First Order, went aaaaallll the way past everything to Lostroom, hopped backwards into Babylon, then went back again to Camelot, then forward to Solomon. No idea what's next lol.

They just like being confusing don't they? For that reason, not being in the know, I watched Lostroom after First Order before starting on Babylonia, but it was fairly obvious that Lostroom was an endgame-not-endgame epilogue. I actually really liked Lostroom, exactly the kind of mindgame wind-down I enjoy (even if I haven't experienced what's meant to go in between heh).

To answer your question though the Babylon anime makes a few key references to Camelot, so I would say if possible watch camlot first but of course it's too late for many of us lol.

Oh bloody hell... Frigging fate franchise...

As a personal recomendation for Case Files, watch the whole series through then watch Fate/Grand Order: First Order afterwards. You will really hate the antagonist of that movie more so doing that lol.

... Oh you monster. I know what you're doing here and that's cruel. I approve.

? Oh no, have I spoilt the surprise by already having watched First Order? I look forward to finishing Case Files now heh.

*(not unconditionally - it's mostly Ufotable's take of Fate, so I guess I should say I love Ufotable's version of Fate?)

I'm definitely of the same opinion though I have to say I'm quite enjoying Case Files a lot right now, and Babylonia was getting interesting just as I switched back to the former.

Old news, but it wasn't really ever posted so not sure if it's common knowledge but UFOtable have announced their new series in the Nasuverse. I'm very excited for this one (since the VN will never be translated at this rate)

Fun fact: I actually forgot about this one until now lol

View attachment 24009
Also new Fate series in general has been announced.

View attachment 24010

What's this one now? Goodness sake Fate, let me catch up already..

 

[Vincentdante]

They just like being confusing don't they? For that reason, not being in the know, I watched Lostroom after First Order before starting on Babylonia, but it was fairly obvious that Lostroom was an endgame-not-endgame epilogue. I actually really liked Lostroom, exactly the kind of mindgame wind-down I enjoy (even if I haven't experienced what's meant to go in between heh).

Lostroom acts as a prologue to the lostbelts. I would say you gained and lost nothing by seeing it

Oh bloody hell... Frigging fate franchise...

Nah you're good, the references are minor and don't ruin anything in that singularity. They made the call back so anime only people would be in the know on a certain something and it made sense in context as well, it won't even fully come into play until after Solomon anyway.

? Oh no, have I spoilt the surprise by already having watched First Order? I look forward to finishing Case Files now heh.

Not really. It might even amplify Case Files a bit knowing the events of that movie lol.

I'm definitely of the same opinion though I have to say I'm quite enjoying Case Files a lot right now, and Babylonia was getting interesting just as I switched back to the former.

Can always stick to both

What's this one now? Goodness sake Fate, let me catch up already..

If UFOtable only just started work on the movie you got a good long while yet lol. As for the show it's been confirmed it's another alternate universe thing like extra etc so my expectations are low.

 

[Geriatric hedgehog]

Good to know about the above points and yeah I'm kind of slowly moving through Babylonia whilst mainly focusing on Case Files. I get the feeling I'm going to have a real itch for the Camelot movies when I finish these and it not streaming in the UK is going to be highly irritating...

Excited about the ufotable movie and would be interesting to see how it links into, if at all, with Garden of Sinners and/or Fate universes.