Fan service and its appropriateness

Geriatric hedgehog

Geriatric hedgehog

Death Scythe
Lordhippos said:
P.S. props for Monogatari I love the show, even with all of it's weird fanservice at times, it's just written so well and the VA's are amazing. The Kizu films were insane and really got me psyched to watch the rest of it after Bake
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Absolutely, I loved the kizu films too, which were also tonally quite different from the main series. I personally feel really put off by the"fanservice" (which I generally tend to hate anyway but each to their own) - it can't even be called that when relating to the younger characters, I feel the show would be so much better without it. Some interesting articles on that by Nick Creamer, but even seeing his logic, I just can't condone it's inclusion. With all that in mind, that is how much I loved everything else in the show to go safe but every release I could get my hands on!

Edit: just realised all my phone's spell checks and I was meant to state the following just in case it is misconstrued: ...to go and buy every release I could get my hands on!
 
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Geriatric hedgehog said:
Absolutely, I loved the kizu films too, which were also tonally quite different from the main series. I personally feel really put off by the"fanservice" (which I generally tend to hate anyway but each to their own) - it can't even be called that when relating to the younger characters, I feel the show would be so much better without it. Some interesting articles on that by Nick Creamer, but even seeing his logic, I just can't condone it's inclusion. With all that in mind, that is how much I loved everything else in the show to go safe but every release I could get my hands on!
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Yeah without the fanservice I'd definitely rate the series much higher as it truly does have some fantastic stories but having a main character like Araragi really ruined a lot of arcs. I guess a lot of the anime community has become more desensitized to those scenes over time. But yeah other than that everything else is fantastic especially regarding the Kizumonogatari trilogy and Sodachi arcs.
 
Geriatric hedgehog said:
Absolutely, I loved the kizu films too, which were also tonally quite different from the main series. I personally feel really put off by the"fanservice" (which I generally tend to hate anyway but each to their own) - it can't even be called that when relating to the younger characters, I feel the show would be so much better without it. Some interesting articles on that by Nick Creamer, but even seeing his logic, I just can't condone it's inclusion. With all that in mind, that is how much I loved everything else in the show to go safe but every release I could get my hands on!
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Yeah I don't agree with it for the younger characters, but I think anime has a problem with this kind of thing generally, it's not just a Monogatari problem. I enjoyed NGNL for instance but does Shiro really need to be like 11? not in my opinion. Series would work just as well if she was older.

I think it would be fine on the older characters though, and in some cases total removal of it wouldn't be desirable. For Kanbaru for instance it's basically her trademark state being naked a lot of the time.
 
Geriatric hedgehog said:
Absolutely, I loved the kizu films too, which were also tonally quite different from the main series. I personally feel really put off by the"fanservice" (which I generally tend to hate anyway but each to their own) - it can't even be called that when relating to the younger characters, I feel the show would be so much better without it. Some interesting articles on that by Nick Creamer, but even seeing his logic, I just can't condone it's inclusion. With all that in mind, that is how much I loved everything else in the show to go safe but every release I could get my hands on!
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+1
Kizu and the Final Season (Owari onwards) has to be the best entries so far in the series. Rich storytelling, immersive mysteries, effective character development and a wonderful end to the first part of Monogatari Series. Well then there is Off-Season and Monster Season. Though I haven't read these just yet.
 

Lordhippos said:
Yeah I don't agree with it for the younger characters, but I think anime has a problem with this kind of thing generally, it's not just a Monogatari problem. I enjoyed NGNL for instance but does Shiro really need to be like 11? not in my opinion. Series would work just as well if she was older.

I think it would be fine on the older characters though, and in some cases total removal of it wouldn't be desirable. For Kanbaru for instance it's basically her trademark state being naked a lot of the time.
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Very true, definitely an issue in general with a number of other anime unfortunately and I agree that for consenting adults whatever goes (or teens of the same age amongst themselves). Also agree regarding the portrayal of Shiro in NGNL and partly why I couldn't like it in the end. Ah well, maybe someday they will choose not to include that type of, what is in our opinion, detritus which just takes away from great works otherwise.
 
itt: Westerners angry at Japanese drawings but still want their things. Blames capitalism for simple greed more at 11. :p

Though perhaps this is why the BBFC generally censors this stuff anyway.

EDIT: I guess it's as good a time as any to weigh in with my opinion on the topic. Honestly Anime girls (loli or not) don't even look human to me. Moe blobs are corporate products using psychological tricks to appeal to the male sense of "cute" in the first place, but on a comparative anatomical level they actually resemble Greys more than Humans.

animegrey.jpg

The thing about anime of course is you are looking into a world where everyone looks like this so you can believe that they are human for the purposes of the story and entertainment. Much in the same way Spongebob Squarepants let's you suspend your disbelief that you are watching an anthropomorphic sponge act kind of like a person.

So ultimately I'm unafected by it. Just keep in touch with reality as you watch it.
 
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Girls wIth Guns said:
Lol, fortunately, most of the anime I watch (serious drama anime) don't have big-eyed characters, they are drawn more realistically. Generally, those cutesy Greys are mostly found in all the kiddie series... 😜
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It's the kind I prefer as well, but I disagree that adult drama's are excempt as all anime suffers from Grey's anatomy even if it's to a lesser degree. It's just the style of it, kind of like how western cartoons use shapes to define their characters for the most part, adult or otherwise. But I digress my post was in response to all the bitchin about Monogatari anyway lol.
 
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I don't really think it was bitching about Monogatari as such, it's just one example among many but quite an infamous one for a few of it's scenes.

I think I said in the other thread that despite it's shortcomings in this area, Monogatari was still my favourite series, and that is saying a lot in it's favour. I love the show, honestly.

Clearly anime isn't real and people know that, so some artistic license is fine, but it's still a problem in some anime shows where they show loli content that doesn't really have a good excuse for existing.

It would never stop me watching something I like, but like with NGNL I could do just fine without it (example: did they really need to have a cameltoe shot on Shiro in episode 1, when she is meant to be 11 years old and is described as being his sister?).
 
Oh boy, hornet's nest! I clearly don't have a clue about how these forums work scratching head, I remember this original exchange from a boxsets' forum or something, and have no recollection of having started this thread! Anyhoo, looking back I do come across very judgemental & opinionated and I do apologize for this - it was not my intention to irritate or offend anybody nor to bitch irreverently about one of my favourite anime. Personally I'm a prude and not fond of fanservice in anime nor non-animated media (though secretly/subconsciously I probably do like it and therefore feel further offended at my internal guilt heh!!). That is relating to adults/consenting individuals, regarding which I don't actually have an issue with that being included whether I like it or not. One doofus' opinions do not count for anything ultimately and if I don't like, I don't watch it right?


For what it's worth, my justification for the previous tirade is that I do not regardless, see the justification for older individuals groping/molesting children unable to consent, in any context, and that is speaking as an Asian, who grew up in Asia, having lived in different countries in the continent and experienced different cultures including patriarchal ones, and currently settled in the UK. I see the point regarding anthropomorphising and what is obviously fiction, but let's take the visual element out of a scene for example, as if describing it to someone verbally only: "highschool boy gropes elementary school girl" - to me it's about what is implied, fiction or not, and that is not right in the significant majority of cultures (regardless of the fact that it does, in rare instances, occur rules notwithstanding, in all human societies East & West).


I'll just end with the fact that, like others, I really do love Monogatari but to the extent that I can be upfront about the aspects of it that I find disturbing. I wish I could happily share it with my friends/family/kids but some of those elements make that problematic. All these are just my opinions with no expectations for others to agree.
 
Geriatric hedgehog said:
I remember this original exchange from a boxsets' forum or something, and have no recollection of having started this thread!
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Yeah, it started in the anime bargains thread. Sometimes the admins will split a particular discussion off into its own thread when it's taken on a life of its own outside of the original topic.

Geriatric hedgehog said:
Anyhoo, looking back I do come across very judgemental & opinionated and I do apologize for this
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I honestly don't think you came across like that at all, dude. You've surely nothing to apologise for whatsoever: you have your personal viewpoint and put it across really articulately. For what it's worth, my own viewpoint on fanservice in anime aligns with yours: I watch anime in spite of the occasional fanservice rather than for it.
 
Geriatric hedgehog said:
I'll just end with the fact that, like others, I really do love Monogatari but to the extent that I can be upfront about the aspects of it that I find disturbing. I wish I could happily share it with my friends/family/kids but some of those elements make that problematic. All these are just my opinions with no expectations for others to agree.
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Don't worry, I think many will agree with you there. Opinions may differ on fanservice across the entire anime community, and of course it can vary massively depending on the series and how it handles it anyway since it's a whole genre in itself, but few would deny that certain stuff can be kind of uncomfortable to see.
 
I split the thread to preserve the feelings of the people who visited the bargains thread for coupons and got debate instead, so please don't worry, you're not going crazy!

Personally, I love quite a few flavours of fan service but I am of a similar mind about excessive pandering. I dropped NGNL after just one episode because it was so awkward and loaded with wish fulfilment aimed at an audience that wasn't me. It didn't feel as though Shiro was a person in her own right which is one of my personal red flags. There are plenty of other shows which don't need to rely on panty shots of young characters to keep the viewer's interest and I'm not desperate enough for entertainment to put up with something that I am not enjoying. I find Monogatari fun because it knows what it's doing and I feel that there is a critical vein running through it all that is missing in a lot of other shows of its type, but even so some of the scenes are close to the knuckle. I give it more of a pass because as inappropriate as those moments are, it feels as though Mayoi has a lot more agency than the girls get in other shows which makes the weird stuff feel less exploitative. I can definitely see where it would make people reasonably uncomfortable.

R
 
In my opinion if it's in the source material then it's perfectly fine or even expected to be present within the anime adaptation. I remember seeing complaints about the ecchi content in Ms Kobayashi dragon maid anime, but for those that had read the manga the anime is actually quite toned down in comparison. The manga contains actual nudity for all of the characters for instance.

Can you imagine someone making a season 2 of Monster Musume and it having no fan service? Of course fans of the series would be upset about this, as it's expected based on the source material.
 
Fanservice is certainly something I feel like I've become more tolerant of as time goes past, but in part that might just be because I've become better at avoiding the shows that are excessively pandering or otherwise doing things I find distasteful.

In the case of Monogatari however (along with other things like Kill la Kill), I do feel a little bit like the creators are trying to have their cake and eat it. It's a series that is very clever with what it says about fanservice, perhaps nowhere more so than in the utterly ridiculous toothbrushing scene, but it still arrives at this by just straight up showing a lot of fanservice...
 
Professor Irony said:
(along with other things like Kill la Kill), I do feel a little bit like the creators are trying to have their cake and eat it.
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I'm a very big fan of Kill la Kill, and even I have to agree with that sentiment.

Trigger, I feel, are playing to two rival fan factions simultaneously, saying "Fanservice: how ridiculous, eh?" with a knowing wink in one direction, before immediately turning the opposite way and saying "Fanservice: you like a bit of that, don't you?" with another.
 
CommanderZx2 said:
In my opinion if it's in the source material then it's perfectly fine or even expected to be present within the anime adaptation. I remember seeing complaints about the ecchi content in Ms Kobayashi dragon maid anime, but for those that had read the manga the anime is actually quite toned down in comparison. The manga contains actual nudity for all of the characters for instance.

Can you imagine someone making a season 2 of Monster Musume and it having no fan service? Of course fans of the series would be upset about this, as it's expected based on the source material.
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I agree with this and it does highlight something I hadn't considered - source material. I think anime shows up the good and bad of the source material, my biggest issue with fan service is not it existing (and it's expected in ecchi) but my concerns boil down to fanservice with underage looking girls really.

If the source material depicts such and the anime doesn't for the reasons of not wanting to, then people would probably say the anime isn't being faithful to the source material.
 
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