Evangelion vs RahXephon - The Rematch

[Mangaminx]

Character Development? Don't make me laugh! We have whingy Shinji that's the most ungrateful boy in anime, complains at everything - I felt like putting out of his so called misery in the first episode!

There is quite a bit of character development in Eva. No-one said that they were developing likeable characters, however. Although if you hate the characters that much, it's probably not worth your time seeing them develop.

I wouldn't really say the characters develop.. ,I honestly didn't see much change in Shinji throughout. He was whiney and irritating at the start.., and well pretty much the same at the end.

 

[Martin]

after watching both series several times i can safely say that Rah is a stunning series and does pretty much everything right: likeable characters, mesmerising visuals, great story...unfortunately it is, as has been pointed out already, derivative. still, at least it was inspired by stuff that's really good: the likes of NGE and Gundam.

Eva on the other hand has a number of good reasons why people dislike it. psychobabble, a few irritating characters and one metric tonne of hype that goes along with it. so, why do i prefer it? the answer is, to put it bluntly, balls. the director's i mean.

Anno created soemthing so over-the-top, self indulgent and pretentious it's a miracle Gainax didn't go under. the story was obtuse to the point of being incomrehensible and yet he had the sheer hard-nosed determination to vent all his frustration and dispair into a TV show.

yeah, i find Shinji whiney and annoying, but as much as i want to clobber the spineless little git i realise how likely i would be to make the same mistakes in the same situation. he's the wimpy, childish side to all of us in that sense. the rest of the cast are unrealistic but have had an immesurable effect on how anime was done since.

then there's the way the series was created: sure, the characters don't develop but certainly go through one hell of a lot and teach the viewer more about life than they themselves learn. building up what seems to be a dumb mecha show with a 'monster of the week' turns into something much darker, experimental and original later on: all of a sudden it becomes an exercise in sheer mindfuckery with a labyrinthine plot and visuals that arepretty damned amazing for 1995. like i said, it's very over-the-top but i can't help but admire the guts that went into producing it.

sorry if i went on a bit there. both RahXephon and Gunbuster are still excellent shows that every self-respecting anime fan should see!

 

[Suiseiseki]

I think this is where we disagree and obviously this is just a matter of opinion.

I'd agree. I don't like immortalizing things; if we constantly venerate the past we'll never fully appreciate the genius of future series. Though I'm still waiting to find that Gundam series better than Zeta, which seems to have been erased from history altogether.

yeah, i find Shinji whiney and annoying, but as much as i want to clobber the spineless little git i realise how likely i would be to make the same mistakes in the same situation. he's the wimpy, childish side to all of us in that sense.

I guess Shinji shows a whiny side of most of us that we hate to admit to possessing.

It's clear from this thread that, perhaps more than any other series, Eva really divides us all as to it's quality.

 

[Stuart]

Whilst I don't despise Eva - in fact I count myself amongst it's fans - I'm very much of the opinion it isn't deserving of its lofty reputation. I admire its veracity and willingness to subvert our expectations and play on our insecurities but it just doesn't have the narrative clout to back up it's myriad of lofty ideas.

That's not to say it's badly written but the paltry 26 episode framework buckles underneath the weight of all of Anno's ideas, whilst some believe the ambiguiety left by the several gaping plot holes gives the series a layer of mystique and timelessness it reeks of sloppily implemented writing to me. Ambiguiety can be a powerful narrative tool in the right hands - just looks at Lain and Texhnolyze - but in Eva it infuriates instead of fascinates. The twists should leave you wanting for more and not -as in Eva's case - with plot holes you could drive a bus through.

 

[Suiseiseki]

Whilst I don't despise Eva - in fact I count myself amongst it's fans - I'm very much of the opinion it isn't deserving of its lofty reputation. I admire its veracity and willingness to subvert our expectations and play on our insecurities but it just doesn't have the narrative clout to back up it's myriad of lofty ideas.

That's not to say it's badly written but the paltry 26 episode framework buckles underneath the weight of all of Anno's ideas, whilst some believe the ambiguiety left by the several gaping plot holes gives the series a layer of mystique and timelessness it reeks of sloppily implemented writing to me. Ambiguiety can be a powerful narrative tool in the right hands - just looks at Lain and Texhnolyze - but in Eva it infuriates instead of fascinates. The twists should leave you wanting for more and not -as in Eva's case - with plot holes you could drive a bus through.

I pretty much agree with what you've said; Evangelion's, yes, ambiguious arcana and delibrate vague philosophy has been bettered by many anime since, such as the two you mentioned. Particularly at the contraversial final two episodes, the whole mysterious, shadowy and sinister "plotline" behind the basic story seemed like it had been used as a pin cushion.

I also agree with you that plot holes just accentuate the degree of mythos surrounding Eva, and make it seem like Anno meant for their to be such mysteries left behind.

The immortalization of Eva, as I've said in previous posts, is a point I'm concerned about. I've seen many series that I consider superior to Eva, but are not venerated so, while Evangelion Platiunum DVDs say "the greatest anime ever!" on them, with conviction. Eva even gets it's own NERV-logo iPod, which shows it's popularity compared to other series, having a larger audience than many, in my opinion, superior series. Shows like RahXephon and Fafner have shown me that the Eva-concept can be improved upon, even if they derrive much of their plot from it. But I guess this is all a matter of opinion, as Paul said.

I do believe, however, that Eva's 26-episode framework was the right length for it, at least of the standard, season-focused lengths; I don't see enough material in the story to last for another season, even if the characters were given more development.

 

[Ramadahl]

I do believe, however, that Eva's 26-episode framework was the right length for it, at least of the standard, season-focused lengths; I don't see enough material in the story to last for another season, even if the characters were given more development.

I definitely agree on this point.

So I'm wondering, which series is the "better" one - the one the came up with the original concept, or the one that was inspired by it and perhaps presented the concept better?

As a note, I tend to prefer Eva simply because I believe the characters are "deeper" than those in RahXephon. Not that the characters in RahXephon are shallow, just that I could understand their actions and motivations, whereas in Eva it seemed like I was missing something. You could argue that this is just due to poor writing, but hey.
However, having "the greatest anime ever!" on the DVDs is pretty arrogant and I don't think many people here would agree with it, given what people have posted on the "the greatest anime" thread. And as to the last two episodes of the series, you can read whatever you want into them. Watch the movie instead.

 

[Martin]

it's always a problem with shows that acquire a cult following i guess. just look at the likes of Akira, GitS and Bebop...all landmark anime that have been given so much hype that they don't meet expectations for some viewers. it's not necessarily the industry, either - if enough people on forums like this cite a show as their favourite it becomes immortalised and leaves non-fans wondering what the fuss is all about.

i feel like there's another article to be drawn from this very interesting discussion...

 

[Solaris Phoenix]

I wouldn't really say the characters develop.. ,I honestly didn't see much change in Shinji throughout. He was whiney and irritating at the start.., and well pretty much the same at the end.

The only noticeable development I could see was when, in the last part of episode 26, he seemed to break free from the lack of self-confidence in his own mind. That was my favourite bit in the entire series, because I can interpret it as being good and happy.

I don't remember a great deal about Eva, to be honest. I remember it being good at the time that I watched it, but I remember also thinking that it wasn't something that I wanted to watch again. There are some amazing bits, and there are some gruesome bits and the music, on the whole, is something I get on with a great deal better than that of RahXephon (except the track Before You Know, which completely owns every bit of Eva's music). But I prefer RahXephon.

To me, 'Xephon seems a much more human drama. It's more optimistic, and while it's fair to say that Evangelion might have a much higher dramatic impact, the sense of hope and fulfilment in RX made it much more satisfying for me to watch. Undoubtedly there are parellels between the two, but I don't think it's fair to discount RahXephon just because Eva came first- it has merits that Eva doesn't, and vice-versa.

Had Evangelion not ended as it did with all its controversy and stuff, I personally doubt its infamy would have survived as long as it has- I'd put it on a fame-level with Outlaw Star. Which I also prefer

 

[Qualia]

Yesterday I watched the entirety of the RahXephon TV series in a single session (is that 13 hours or so?) for the first time and have to say that unfortunately, it was the first time I found myself incapable of caring for an anime. I don't claim to be an expert but I feel like I have seen enough anime series to make a judgement on what I like to gain from a show, and RahXephon failed on many accounts.

I watched RX exactly because of it's similarities to Eva and tried to make myself view it in the perspective of an anime in it's own right, rather than constantly watching for references, so am trying for my dislike of RX to not come from it not feeling like 'Eva 2'. What I disliked was one of the things I've heard touted as a betterment over Eva - the character development. I found several of the characters to be pretentious and unnecessary, especially Sayoko and Momaru, which overcrowded the web of relationships that the series tries to spin. There was too much character development which seemed erratic at times. With Eva, like many, I did not like Shinji at first and hardly loved him at the end but I felt as though I understood him at least. With Ayato, the prerequisites for his emotional outbreaks at first seemed to be just a feeling of being out of place in the world, which I didn't care about because not enough time was given to showing his position in Tokyo and his friends that lived their. This seemed to be because RX was desperate to jump into showing off the mystery and confusion that Ayato faces as quickly as possible in the first episode. This was almost as if the production team's influence from Eva was making them hurry along and prove that they could be better or alternative to it. Even by the 20+ plus episodes, I just didn't care what was going to happen to any of the characters, which shocked me because normally I can get into any show by that point.

I also seriously disliked the way Mu/Aztec/Maya etc imagery and references were used in the series. It was almost as if the producers had heard how Anno had picked Judeo-Christian imagery because it was foriegn and unusual (without him actually wanting to pass comment on it, however) and thought 'what can we source to seem more esoteric and obtuse than Eva'. RX seemed to _want_ the viewer to recall Eva, which made it feel cocky. It's ironic in fact that the even when trying to judge RX as an anime on it's own and not against Eva, my criticism got backed up with evidence from Eva no matter how hard I tried.

Ok, well that's my two cents. Also, those who disliked the TV ending to Eva seemed to forget the fact that Anno's budget was forcible cut toward the end because the series had become too dark and oppressive for a kid's TV show. After what had come before it, do you seriously think Anno would have said to himself that he wanted to make a cheap looking mishmash of clips, scruffy drawings and video effects to end the series?

 

[Mangaminx]

Ok, well that's my two cents. Also, those who disliked the TV ending to Eva seemed to forget the fact that Anno's budget was forcible cut toward the end because the series had become too dark and oppressive for a kid's TV show. After what had come before it, do you seriously think Anno would have said to himself that he wanted to make a cheap looking mishmash of clips, scruffy drawings and video effects to end the series?

Honestly? Yes I do. As I said before I think he was aiming to be ambigious and clever and "artsy" when he came up with quite possibly the most dire ending in the history of anime. EoE while better still had moments of the same random rubbish that made up the end of EVA TV series (and that was made later on) so its obvious Anno likes making things that make no sense. I hate to say this but GONZO's spectacularly average Kiddy Grade had a better ending than Evangelion, but because the ending of EVA was so weird its gone down in history. Im sure Anno felt that if he made the end as ambigous as possible he'd be hearalded a genius so he made the series end so random that you need to read the series plot on the net to understand what happened. Even then its just whoever wrote the fansites idea of what happened, not Anno's as I bet even he dosent know what the random stuff in Evangelion means for sure.

EDIT TO ADD: I can picture Anno sitting at GAINAX right now cackling insanely to himself. "Nobody will truly figure out how completely dire Evangelion was as they will all be to busy arguing on messageboards about the end! *insert evil genius laughter*".

 

[Paul]

Im sure Anno felt that if he made the end as ambigous as possible he'd be hearalded a genius so he made the series end so random that you need to read the series plot on the net to understand what happened.

It's quite amusing that people are critising Evangelion for actually making them have to think. If you felt the need to go and read about Evangelion after watching it, that's a good sign. After watching Kiddy Grade, I said good riddance and hoped I'd never have to watch it again. Evangelion I can watch time and time again and each time I take something new from it. Perhaps the fact it's ambiguous is what annoys so many people; yes, the story is not clear cut, yes, it can be hard to follow and yet still, so many people love the series. Evangelion is more than just a giant robot anime, it's a multi-layered character drama too. The fact I don't understand why the Angels were attacking NERV, or what the heck Instrumentality is all about, is okay with me. Evangelion is not about the giant robots, its about Shinji. And for that, I think it's a fantastic, thought provoking series that depresses as much as it enthralls.

I can't for the life of me work out how some people can complain about things like the character development. Shinji starts the series an introverted, unconfident teen and ends it ready to accept life with open arms. That's about as far as character development can go.

Just to re-iterate, I think RahXephon is a fine series, but it simply won't ever reach same levels of fandom of Evangelion. For many reasons, even if RahXephon was created before Eva, it still wouldn't be as successful. It just lacks the magic that only the finest series show off.

 

[Mangaminx]

Evangelion I can watch time and time again and each time I take something new from it. Perhaps the fact it's ambiguous is what annoys so many people; yes, the story is not clear cut, yes, it can be hard to follow and yet still, so many people love the series. Evangelion is more than just a giant robot anime, it's a multi-layered character drama too. The fact I don't understand why the Angels were attacking NERV, or what the heck Instrumentality is all about, is okay with me.

Making you think is all very well, it can make a series highly enjoyable. But when barely anyone can reach an actual decision on what elements of a series are about is when I get dubious. To me it seems that the entire thing lacked any real point to it. If a series is like that, sure it can be surreal but when its surreal to the point of being as random as EVA, it makes me feel the end was cobbled together overnight and with little talent involved. Anyone can make a story seem weird, but it takes skill to make a story have a good ending.

 

[hopeful_monster]

Ahh a discussion I can really get my teeth into.
Eva- so much has already been said about this series that in may respects it has almost passed into an instiution rather than a show to watch. It is something that every mecha series is compaired to, and parralells are draw to it (even if they don't exist). It is very meaningful, leaves a fair amount to the interprtaion of the viewer and requires a lot of either backround knowledge or reading and re watching to even half 'get'.
Rahxephon- Almost always seems to be the poor cousin of Eva. Though there are some similarities, they are differnt stories, with differnet characters and generally it should appeal to differnt people that for eva. It is also a lot more rounded as a series than eva. There are answers to most questions, events link more form episode to episode, and the ending is more ... clear cut, wrapping up things.
Personally i prefer Rahxephon, I agree with Ayato's philosphy rather than Shinji's, the animation is clearer in Rahxephon and a a number of other things, thopugh Eva has berserker GDR's... which rock. Both are good it is just personal preference as to which is better.

 

[Martin]

the problem is, neither ending is the one that was intended. originally episode 25 was something loosely resembling EoE's first half, but we'll never know what ep 26 was supposed to be due to the budget problem. EoE was the result of a studio being persuaded into making a film because there were large sums of much-needed cash offered to produce what fans wanted to see.

in summary, the TV ending was caused by big business getting in the way of the studio's artistic vision (too little money) while EoE was caused by too much money! in both cases Anno was denied the chance to show what he originally intended to.

at the end of the day we are stuck with what was made and the end result isn't nearly as bad as it seems. we are offered not one but two endings to the show which may or not be the protrayal of the same thing!

if you get through the hype, speculation and merchendising that surrounds it, you are left with a series that combines so many different elements and went through so many problems it's actually surprising that there weren't more plot holes in it.

fundamentally there IS a point to NGE. it's a portrayal of facing up to life's problems, albeit told with lots of other messages as well which muddy the waters for some viewers. RahXephon has a great story and everything else that makes a first rate show but the underlying message wasn't nearly as clear and as hard hitting as Eva's, which makes it so much more.

Both are good it is just personal preference as to which is better.

that's the bottom line i guess.

 

[Qualia]

It's quite amusing that people are critising Evangelion for actually making them have to think. If you felt the need to go and read about Evangelion after watching it, that's a good sign. After watching Kiddy Grade, I said good riddance and hoped I'd never have to watch it again. Evangelion I can watch time and time again and each time I take something new from it.

That's one of the main reasons why I feel Eva is not only better than RX but also better than most anime. Eva's writing and production lend it far more toward an actual literary piece than a complex fantasy. Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that what makes Eva great for me are the same reasons why writings like Shakespeare's are brilliant. Many of the lines in Eva, the suggestions giving to situations and the development of the characters allow multiple interpretations to be taken depending on how your personal experience/knowledge or your emotional attachment engage you with the show. For example, we watch the chaotic decent of Shinji into his depression and hopelessness and then have him comes to terms with many facts about his life and position in the world. There is also toward the end of the series, and a lot in 25-26, of stuff that suggested an experience of Enlightenment and of Obliteration of the Self, which was something I'd come aware of from my interest in Buddhism. I thought it portrayed this magnificently as well as melding it with many, many other levels and meanings. The friend of mine who lent me Eva couldn't see where I was coming with this though and rather thought that it symbolised a path to sexual and social maturity in himself.

No other anime I have come across, aside from moments of GitS:SAC and some of Akira, reaches the level of literary complexity that Eva maintians. I think that's why Eva has reached the level of infamy it has. (Also, if anyone has any suggestions to any films or series that you might think would appeal to me because of that, I'd love to hear about them!)

 

[hopeful_monster]

No other anime I have come across ... reaches the level of literary complexity that Eva maintians.

Thing is that although there is some demand for litterary complexity it really isn't everybndy's cup of tea/coffee/whiskey etc. Much like a lot of classic literature though it is much talked about very few people read it for pleasure. You ask 100 people what they liked about eva and 90% will probably say Giant death robot action or cute girls. A vast majority skip over all the vaunted complexity as it is well too complex for you average punter. Even for some one with a brain stem it is tricky.
While i kinda got both endings it always felt like something was missing. Not sure if it was missing in the main body of the series, or the endings, but more probably what was missing was a link between the main body of the series and the ending. The two never really flowed together well.
Must admitt though it has been a while since i watch all of both so memeory is a little sketchy.

 

[Solaris Phoenix]

It's times like this I feel really dwarfed when expressing my opinions, heh ^_^;

Eva's writing and production lend it far more toward an actual literary piece than a complex fantasy. Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that what makes Eva great for me are the same reasons why writings like Shakespeare's are brilliant.

Forgive me for being blunt, but the impression that I get here is that 'Eva's so good because it's complex'. I don't know much about Shakespeare, but a fair amount of his work is actually written by other people, and there are things in his plays that had been done way beforehand. People just didn't know it. I'd heard somewhere that Eva was a rip-off of some obscure science fiction thing in the past; I wish I could remember what it was.

But anyway, a lot of animes I've seen follow exactly the same structure in terms of the storyline- in fact, the opening episode gave so few hints as to what the entire situation was that I didn't watch any further- there's only so far into the deep end you can be thrown without sinking from the get-go. Granted, Evangelion uses a heck of a lot of deep, psychological terms, but I don't think that necessarily makes it a great literary piece. It just names the psychological terms it uses as dramatic pieces (most of which, at different points can be found in any other anime) and fancifies them. It'd be like Nadesico being so funny because it pointed out the names of all its comedic devices.

Eva has some outstanding pieces of imagery, and has really done its research into the basis behind the story elements. I like that. And in comparison, something like RahXephon does look a little sparse. But I think you need to be a certain type of person to thoroughly appreciate something like Evangelion simply for that reason; as much as I'm often impressed by things like Evangalion, I'd much rather watch something a little less heavy which I can identify with more. Personally, I thought Eva was rather bleak and depressing.

To me, it's almost like the difference between 2001: A Space Oddessy and The Fifth Element. One's an internationally-renowned, critically-acclaimed masterpiece that's absolutely dire to sit through, the other's much less symbolic and detailed and more commercial, but more enjoyable. And as far as I personally am concerned, if I don't buy the DVDs, it didn't leave that great a taste in my mouth. If I were to get any of the Eva series, it'd only be episodes 24-26 because those were the episodes I actually enjoyed most. The rest just hasn't really stuck in my mind as much as other serii.

 

[hopeful_monster]

Eva has some outstanding pieces of imagery, and has really done its research into the basis behind the story elements. I like that. And in comparison, something like RahXephon does look a little sparse.

Not necessarily true, just that the imageryin Eva was based on things we are more acustomed to in the west, christian and jewish symbolism is somewhat familiar. The Mayan and other south american civilisations used in Rahxephon is much more obscure and there for seem more made up, and less researched than it actually is. Due to my weird upbringing it was more familiar to me that no most other people.

Another random thought. If complexity is so good and praise worthy, why don't more people like/rave about Gasaraki. Complex political plot, non generic pilots and more believable mecha.

 

[Paul]

Eva has some outstanding pieces of imagery, and has really done its research into the basis behind the story elements. I like that. And in comparison, something like RahXephon does look a little sparse.

Not necessarily true, just that the imageryin Eva was based on things we are more acustomed to in the west, christian and jewish symbolism is somewhat familiar. The Mayan and other south american civilisations used in Rahxephon is much more obscure and there for seem more made up, and less researched than it actually is. Due to my weird upbringing it was more familiar to me that no most other people.

I think it's more than the familiar symbolism which makes the presentation of Evangelion stand out. The use of bright colors gives the whole series a wonderfully vivid look, brilliant reds and purples stand out against the green, hilly country-side. Evangelion just looks exciting. That and the fact that the mecha designs have a freaky corpse aesthetic; they geniuely look like living giants.

Comparatively, RahXephon has an attractive but washed out presentation (which seems to mirror my feelings on other components of the series too) - it's looks nice, but lacks an important spark; nothing looks dangerous.

Another random thought. If complexity is so good and praise worthy, why don't more people like/rave about Gasaraki. Complex political plot, non generic pilots and more believable mecha.

Evangelion mixes its complexity with a cast of familiar teenage characters. The audience can easily relate to their feelings. Come to think of it, the first 20 or so episodes of Evangelion are pretty much straight forward anyway; of course, there is a sniff of conspiracy, but I doubt anyone actually expected the story to take such a mind bending and symbolic turn.

I haven't seen Gasaraki yet, but perhaps that in itself answers your question. It doesn't look like an essential series. MONSTER suffers from a similiar problem, it's pretty much the best anime series currently being produced in Japan but it's shunned time and time again because on first impressions, it looks boring. A real shame, but thats the fickle nature of the "mainstream" for you. The fact Anno managed to sneak such complexity into an obviously mainstream anime series was part of the reason is caused such a major fuss.

 

[Solaris Phoenix]

I think it's more than the familiar symbolism which makes the presentation of Evangelion stand out. The use of bright colors gives the whole series a wonderfully vivid look, brilliant reds and purples stand out against the green, hilly country-side. Evangelion just looks exciting. That and the fact that the mecha designs have a freaky corpse aesthetic; they geniuely look like living giants.

That is true. I also think something more fundamental to Eva's production makes it look more effective, and that's the use of non-digital colouring. I don't know if it's just me, but I always find animes that haven't used digital colouring methods (as they all are now) to be that much more stiking in comparison to later ones.

Not necessarily true, just that the imageryin Eva was based on things we are more acustomed to in the west, christian and jewish symbolism is somewhat familiar. The Mayan and other south american civilisations used in Rahxephon is much more obscure and there for seem more made up, and less researched than it actually is. Due to my weird upbringing it was more familiar to me that no most other people

I don't just mean that. From reading all the inserts with the RahXephon DVDs I can see where all the names of various things are taken from, but to be honest I knew as much about the symbolism in Eva than I did in RX (which was little-to-nothing) and Eva still seemed to be the more complex of the two when presenting its psychological and symbolic roots. But either way, I still prefer RahXephon because it's more human, to me. Yes, Evangelion explores deep components in the psyche and deals a lot with raw emotions, but in a sense RahXephon's more down-to-earth and realistic. That's what I prefer about it, with the characters. I think subtlety can be much more effective in conveying ideas and emotions than a full-blown hissy fit.

Comparatively, RahXephon has an attractive but washed out presentation (which seems to mirror my feelings on other components of the series too) - it's looks nice, but lacks an important spark; nothing looks dangerous.

But that's one thing I liked about RahXephon, too. I don't think it was intended to be as dangerous or necessarily as frightening as Eva set out to be. And the scene in which Ayato kills the Asahina Dolem was far more evocative to me than anything in Eva.