ADV Films UK halt sale & distribution of select titles

[evangelion rocks]

i think it's safe to say that all of us here do our best to support the industry,just looking at "the anime/manga i bought today"thread is proof of that.what's frustrating is that after years of support from their customers,us,there has been no announcement or no forewarning of anything from adv(remember what happened with the anime network uk?).dont't get me wrong, i'll continue to buy the releases i'm interested in from adv but i've lost a lot of confidence in them after whats happened recently.i've said it befor and i'll say it again, all we can do is hope for the best until we get a statement.

 

[Fellistowe]

I'm not sticking up for fansubs, But, Japan do do it to themselves. Anime is one of the biggest things that go through the file sharing programs [Which are massive, more so than us] in Japan. I don't think there industry is very supporting really. All in all, I'm not that surprised by the Japanese. £150 for 24 episodes ain't exacted very healthy for a average straight-out-of-school otaku.

I've just had a nice little rant at someone about this on our own soc boards (apologies, I'm in preacher mode at the moment *not like you haven't noticed*), and I'd like to paste it here as well, since it kinda answers that, plus I'd like people with more knowledge than me to correct me if I'm mistaken, because I like to know when I'm saying something wrong:

QUOTE:
However, can we blame illegal downloading for this?


Yes we can.
Let me make it clear, it's not just me saying this, it's everybody in the industry, and everybody who watches the industry. They've seen the figures, done the math, but have sat and done nothing about it because they either had faith in or just couldn’t risk alienating the fanbase.
They've been watching this happen for the last 8 years, ever since fansub went internet based.


QUOTE:
It's not a simple choice between buying a DVD set or illegally downloading anime.



Yes, it is. Phil doesn’t watch fansub, he watches legit disks. I know a lot of other people who follow that same mentality.
I watched anime on legit DVD's for 4 years before coming to namsoc and finding out about fansub. There's still a large quantity of the population out there that are the same.


And if you want to make the comparisons to the "taping music" analogy, take into account the differing trades.
The music industry is popular. It will almost always sell to joe blogs on the street. The big music companies make a lot of money, both from medium sales and royalties.

Then consider the anime industry. Its niche, very niche. Even in Japan it is niche, so niche in fact that quite often the anime companies have to pay the TV companies to air the shows. The anime companies don’t make money off of royalties or TV advertising. They make money off one thing only, merchandise. If they can't sell DVD's, then they are screwed. They don't have any choice in the matter, it's too niche a medium to attract strong advertising, so instead it has to be self supporting. It is an industry that is totally reliant on the purchasing power of the fans. (about the only royalties they can hope to get is from the toy, model and merchandise producers, but that's still all part of the anime merchandise ring). The less fans buy DVD's, the more the industry will fail, until it will collapse. There's no "alternate way" of doing things, because there will never be enough general interest in anime to make any low cost means of legally viewing it financially viable for the anime companies to exist. That is unless all the artists and producers do it for free out of the goodness of their hearts. Personally I think the people who put the effort in to make these things that we love should be recompensed for their efforts. It's not like their sitting there in a big pile of cash from what they are doing.

People seem to be hell bent on comparing anime to western TV practices, but there is no comparison. Normal TV and films (even the crap American stuff) will generate hundreds of times more interest than anime ever will, so it can guarantee revenue from advertising.
The only anime TV channel we have in the UK now is flopping big style because it just cant generate the interest, and its showing good anime.

Thanks to fansub new fans now believe they are entitled to anime for free.
I ask you, what gives us that right? People work to make anime, creative people who quite often get **** pay for a labour of love. What gives us the right to expect their services for free?
I'd like to think we as supposed fans were just a tad more supportive of the medium we love.

/end rant

Am I right on that, or way off base?

p.s. And sorry yes, I'm not having a go at any of you guys on these forums, because I do know you all spend a lot of money propping the industry up. Kudos to you all for that
There's still an awful lot of people out there who don't follow that mentality though, and its very saddening....

 

[J_C_X]

I'm not sticking up for fansubs, But, Japan do do it to themselves. Anime is one of the biggest things that go through the file sharing programs [Which are massive, more so than us] in Japan. I don't think there industry is very supporting really. All in all, I'm not that surprised by the Japanese. £150 for 24 episodes ain't exacted very healthy for a average straight-out-of-school otaku.

I've just had a nice little rant at someone about this on our own soc boards (apologies, I'm in preacher mode at the moment *not like you haven't noticed*), and I'd like to paste it here as well, since it kinda answers that, plus I'd like people with more knowledge than me to correct me if I'm mistaken, because I like to know when I'm saying something wrong:

QUOTE:
However, can we blame illegal downloading for this?


Yes we can.
Let me make it clear, it's not just me saying this, it's everybody in the industry, and everybody who watches the industry. They've seen the figures, done the math, but have sat and done nothing about it because they either had faith in or just couldn’t risk alienating the fanbase.
They've been watching this happen for the last 8 years, ever since fansub went internet based.


QUOTE:
It's not a simple choice between buying a DVD set or illegally downloading anime.



Yes, it is. Phil doesn’t watch fansub, he watches legit disks. I know a lot of other people who follow that same mentality.
I watched anime on legit DVD's for 4 years before coming to namsoc and finding out about fansub. There's still a large quantity of the population out there that are the same.


And if you want to make the comparisons to the "taping music" analogy, take into account the differing trades.
The music industry is popular. It will almost always sell to joe blogs on the street. The big music companies make a lot of money, both from medium sales and royalties.

Then consider the anime industry. Its niche, very niche. Even in Japan it is niche, so niche in fact that quite often the anime companies have to pay the TV companies to air the shows. The anime companies don’t make money off of royalties or TV advertising. They make money off one thing only, merchandise. If they can't sell DVD's, then they are screwed. They don't have any choice in the matter, it's too niche a medium to attract strong advertising, so instead it has to be self supporting. It is an industry that is totally reliant on the purchasing power of the fans. (about the only royalties they can hope to get is from the toy, model and merchandise producers, but that's still all part of the anime merchandise ring). The less fans buy DVD's, the more the industry will fail, until it will collapse. There's no "alternate way" of doing things, because there will never be enough general interest in anime to make any low cost means of legally viewing it financially viable for the anime companies to exist. That is unless all the artists and producers do it for free out of the goodness of their hearts. Personally I think the people who put the effort in to make these things that we love should be recompensed for their efforts. It's not like their sitting there in a big pile of cash from what they are doing.

People seem to be hell bent on comparing anime to western TV practices, but there is no comparison. Normal TV and films (even the crap American stuff) will generate hundreds of times more interest than anime ever will, so it can guarantee revenue from advertising.
The only anime TV channel we have in the UK now is flopping big style because it just cant generate the interest, and its showing good anime.

Thanks to fansub new fans now believe they are entitled to anime for free.
I ask you, what gives us that right? People work to make anime, creative people who quite often get **** pay for a labour of love. What gives us the right to expect their services for free?
I'd like to think we as supposed fans were just a tad more supportive of the medium we love.

/end rant

Am I right on that, or way off base?

p.s. And sorry yes, I'm not having a go at any of you guys on these forums, because I do know you all spend a lot of money propping the industry up. Kudos to you all for that
There's still an awful lot of people out there who don't follow that mentality though, and its very saddening....

You make a lot of valid points there.

Though television in general is suffering from piracy and so is the movie industry (year on year slides), anime is going to feel it more because it is niche.

Anime is odd in terms of piracy, it's so easily available and wide spread even for a niche market.

AnimeCentral figures are back up to 50k viewers last week so a substancial rise from last weeks 8k. AnimeCentral is a time share though it's figure seem low, it's important to keep in mind that Popgirl at night would not reach that kind of numbers.

 

[Dracos]

Fellistowe I think I totally agree. So many people would baulk at the idea of walking into a shop and stealing a DVD, but download to their hearts content not realising in the end it has the same out come. Unfortunately people out there think they are entitled to stuff for free, they look at all the people that have got away with downloading stuff P2P music, videos and whatever. None of their friends or family have been caught and we only ever hear of the one or two big cases now and again, so they think what harm are they doing everybody does it. What are they and the rest of us going to do when nobody is producing any new material because it it is not worth their time and effort.

I can see a time when nobody releases DVDs, Blu-ray whatever and everyone has to pay to view at specific sites without the option to download. Or DVD players will be linked to the net and will not allow a dvd to be played without the authentication code. I would hate not to be able to look up at my shelves and think I have the option to watch any of it without paying again or having someone snoop.

 

[melonpan]

It just seems to me, barring several special cases (i.e Naruto/Bleach etc), that the whole idea of making regular anime releases mainstream has not worked, and to add further, I don't think it ever will work. The cost is too much for casual buyers, but the price is too low for the companies releasing the product for them to get their profit to recoup their license fees and whatnot.

I think Bandai Visual/(Bandai) have got the target of the industry spot on. They're releasing Japan-quality products, for Japanese prices, and they seem to be doing just fine, because when you look at it closely, this is more or less a collectors market. That's the way it is in Japan as well.

If people don't have the money to pay for a show, I don't think they should complain about the pricing in their market - and half the time, these people won't be buying hardly any shows anyway.

Yeah, maybe it's great getting cheap anime releases, but it comes at a cost.

I know this is totally off-topic, but I thought I'd add this to my rant because it's all I see now. Americans (sorry to sterotype, but it is true) think they can just moan and moan about the prices of their anime, and wonder why their market is going down the shitter. Mainstream works for some anime, but not all, and production companies need to embrace that or they're going to die. The profile of anime can be raised by using the mainsteam titles and putting a lot of effort into that, much like Viz is doing for Naruto.

I know not all my points are quite right, but I've had a change of heart on the issue recently, and this is what I strongly believe in now. It'll take a while before I can consolidate all my views though, so don't take offense to anything I say here, or whatever.

Yeah to add, Bandai Visual are the way to go for anime. If you don't know who they are I suggest you have a look. Likewise for Bandai/Beez, who always do the industry proud. These people have the right idea.

My views might change again if I'm somehow proved wrong, but it just seems to me that most production/distribution companies seem to be operating at a loss most of the time, or barely breaking even. Is that the sign of a thriving industry? I think not.

 

[Hybridchild]

The below news article was published, and then pulled from, ICv2. Hence it being a screen-cap instead:

http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=advnewsyy8.png

I would suggest that due to the fact this has been officially removed from their site that you take whatever you read in this with a pinch of salt, however, it's seeming more and more likely that the Japanese investment in ADV has been canceled.

That article is untrue ICv2 have admitted it themselves

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... ite-update

Its a contingency article something that is sometimes used in journalism that predicts future events so they can publish them as soon as the information is confirmed.

Now before anyone says theres no smoke without fire its common to prepare a number of these that are based on a number of different thories, for example they probably had one stating it was a website glitch, another saying they where pulled becasue of a licensing technicality, another saying they where completely bankrupt etc. So at this stage no theory is in any way more likely than before.

 

[melonpan]

The below news article was published, and then pulled from, ICv2. Hence it being a screen-cap instead:

http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=advnewsyy8.png

I would suggest that due to the fact this has been officially removed from their site that you take whatever you read in this with a pinch of salt, however, it's seeming more and more likely that the Japanese investment in ADV has been canceled.

That article is untrue ICv2 have admitted it themselves

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... ite-update

Its a contingency article something that is sometimes used in journalism that predicts future events so they can publish them as soon as the information is confirmed.

Now before anyone says theres no smoke without fire its common to prepare a number of these that are based on a number of different thories, for example they probably had one stating it was a website glitch, another saying they where pulled becasue of a licensing technicality, another saying they where completely bankrupt etc. So at this stage no theory is in any way more likely than before.

I heard that the information was from a letter that was going to be sent to the retailers, but was withdrawn at the last minute, hence why it wasn't published. I've heard that ADV are working very hard on (and have been since this happened (on the 28th it looks like)) sorting this fiasco out, and it looks like they're going to pull through, hence why this article was not published and still has not been published. Talks are afoot.

 

[Dracos]

I so hope that there is not going to be any problems with ADV's releases now.

I wonder how the situation of this article getting out will effect their sales, it may help as people try to grab up things they were unsure of, or it could completly kill things as people decide not to buy as they don't want to be stuck with anymore half finished series like when Geneon went. Sales of box sets could end up up but single disc sales could go down is how I see it probably happening.

 

[ConanThe3rd]

Ok, to the peson saying Bandi Visual are smart, what planet are you from?

I scarecly pay £20 for shows I like (and as much as you want to make me the villian for that, sod you, I likes my nadeiscos and my gundams and that's what Is like), what makes you think I'm going to cough up £50 for a movie or a two episode dvd?!

 

[melonpan]

Ok, to the peson saying Bandi Visual are smart, what planet are you from?

That'd be me Conan.

Now go dig yourself a large pit and fall in it.

 

[Fellistowe]

I'll agree with Melonpan on this (not about the pit mind).
So long as BV are releasing the same quality disks as the japanese releases (all the shiny's and good quality boxes) then I'm in too.
But then I'm starting to import Japanese R2 disks anyway, having them with a sub and a little bit cheaper is a bonus
Someone tell them to do the same with Sola and EF now, and I'll give them a direct line to my bank account.

 

[Paul]

The below news article was published, and then pulled from, ICv2. Hence it being a screen-cap instead:

http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=advnewsyy8.png

I would suggest that due to the fact this has been officially removed from their site that you take whatever you read in this with a pinch of salt, however, it's seeming more and more likely that the Japanese investment in ADV has been canceled.

That article is untrue ICv2 have admitted it themselves

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... ite-update

Its a contingency article something that is sometimes used in journalism that predicts future events so they can publish them as soon as the information is confirmed.

Now before anyone says theres no smoke without fire its common to prepare a number of these that are based on a number of different thories, for example they probably had one stating it was a website glitch, another saying they where pulled becasue of a licensing technicality, another saying they where completely bankrupt etc. So at this stage no theory is in any way more likely than before.

Read this:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/php ... 436#521436

It's happening. It's not a technical glitch with their website, they are literally wrangling with their Japanese investors, possibly even as we type this. ICv2 didn't just magic this story out of thin air, they had a source, but obviously, things might have changed since the writing of the original story.

 

[melonpan]

I'll agree with Melonpan on this (not about the pit mind).
So long as BV are releasing the same quality disks as the japanese releases (all the shiny's and good quality boxes) then I'm in too.
But then I'm starting to import Japanese R2 disks anyway, having them with a sub and a little bit cheaper is a bonus
Someone tell them to do the same with Sola and EF now, and I'll give them a direct line to my bank account.

I wish I had the money to import Japanese releases, but that's a stretch too far for me. Maybe exceptions will be limited editions for movies and/or boxsets, but still that's a long time off.

Related to the Bandai Visual release though, there seems to be absolutely no mention of an artbox, and it seems the only 'special' part of the release seems to be a colour booklet (a small one). These releases seem to be far from a Japanese release, which is a great shame indeed, I was really looking forward to this style of release.

I'll still probably get round to buying these releases, but now they're not at the top of my list, but that will change if there are extra special things with them.

At least Bandai Visual don't dissappoint with their movie releases (albeit putting the special limited edition release of their Gunbuster vs Diebuster movie as only can be bought from their dot.anime website (which only ships inside the US) isn't a good thing at all).

I might contact them about this actually, and stress my point that they need to add more special things to this release if they're asking for the price they are.

 

[Espy]

You know, this really didn't bother me very much at all, until you mentioned the manga, and I realised that if ADV go down the drain, so does the Yotsuba& license...

 

[Sy]

You know, this really didn't bother me very much at all, until you mentioned the manga, and I realised that if ADV go down the drain, so does the Yotsuba& license...

That's my only concern. I love Yotsuba&!

 

[Hybridchild]

The below news article was published, and then pulled from, ICv2. Hence it being a screen-cap instead:

http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=advnewsyy8.png

I would suggest that due to the fact this has been officially removed from their site that you take whatever you read in this with a pinch of salt, however, it's seeming more and more likely that the Japanese investment in ADV has been canceled.

That article is untrue ICv2 have admitted it themselves

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... ite-update

Its a contingency article something that is sometimes used in journalism that predicts future events so they can publish them as soon as the information is confirmed.

Now before anyone says theres no smoke without fire its common to prepare a number of these that are based on a number of different thories, for example they probably had one stating it was a website glitch, another saying they where pulled becasue of a licensing technicality, another saying they where completely bankrupt etc. So at this stage no theory is in any way more likely than before.

Read this:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/php ... 436#521436

It's happening. It's not a technical glitch with their website, they are literally wrangling with their Japanese investors, possibly even as we type this. ICv2 didn't just magic this story out of thin air, they had a source, but obviously, things might have changed since the writing of the original story.

No it wasnt a glitch, a glitch would have been sorted in a day or so however they have now made a statement

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... e-update-2

Im inclinced to believe this is a licensing glitch more than a financial thing.

If as some have suggested they realised they didnt have proper download distribution rights they would be forced to delay release of certain titles until the license terms where clarified, hence the planned letter to retailers about the delayed releases.

This would also explain these shows being removed from ANN, Netflix and other download services but them not being removed from VOD services. Download rights are separate from broadcast rights (which cover VOD) so they may not have included them in the license contracts when they where first drawn up.

An investor pulling out would be a problem especially given the state of the industry but given the relatively low share owned by the outside investors it wouldn't have resulted in all future releases being pulled, plus they would be contractually bound to give fair notice on a withdrawal giving ADV more time to make a more organised response, unless ADV are totally incompetent it would have been handled better.

 

[Just Passing Through]

I think Bandai Visual/(Bandai) have got the target of the industry spot on. They're releasing Japan-quality products, for Japanese prices, and they seem to be doing just fine, because when you look at it closely, this is more or less a collectors market. That's the way it is in Japan as well.

The trouble with the Bandai Visual approach, taken solely on its own merits is that it kills the industry.

It's Criterion redux, in that it appeals only to an established fanbase with a high disposable income. It's all well and good when you're selling Wings Of Honneamise, you know roughly how many fans there are, you also know that they are in their thirties, and they'll easily drop $80 for a movie they really want.

But you're not going to win any new fans, and you're not going to win those fans on a budget. (I wound up importing WOH from Australia, because Madman realised that there are more anime fans with DVD players than with HD)

If you can't get new fans then the existing fanbase eventuall withers through attrition, end of industry.

What we have now would work if it weren't for those pesky fansubbers and freeloaders. A mixed approach, with some companies issuing premium quality titles, some offering mid range titles, and some releasing shows on a budget.

It's like an oil spill, we're left with the fairy liquid and the sponges, trying to save a few seagulls while the beaches are being coated black. It's too little too late.

The Japanese companies need to understand, if they don't already, just how much the rest of the world contributes to their budgets. They also need to stop the leak at source. They need to get tougher with the fansubbers to preserve their overseas income, and stop the release of raws.

 

[Mohawk52]

The more I think about this the more it's looking like the Japanese are giving ADV a kick in the groin for not doing that deal with Geneon. It's a bit coincidental that ADV's problems have started shortly after they walked away from it. :wink:

 

[melonpan]

The more I think about this the more it's looking like the Japanese are giving ADV a kick in the groin for not doing that deal with Geneon. It's a bit coincidental that ADV's problems have started shortly after they walked away from it. :wink:

Hardly. It's common knowledge that it was Dentsu's fault for pulling Geneon out of the market. (Or is it?)

 

[Mohawk52]

The more I think about this the more it's looking like the Japanese are giving ADV a kick in the groin for not doing that deal with Geneon. It's a bit coincidental that ADV's problems have started shortly after they walked away from it. :wink:

Hardly. It's common knowledge that it was Dentsu's fault for pulling Geneon out of the market. (Or is it?)

I'm not disputing that. It's the deal of ADV taking over Geneon's maketing and distribution part of the business that fell through leaving Geneon and Denstu with no one to do that for them. Similar to what ADV are trying to do with their licenses here.