Abortion

Do you support the right to choice?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Only in the case of rape or incest

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
Chaz said:
...True, but can an individual grasp how bad the overpopulation is? I say a family larger than 3 children is excessive, but that's my opinion....
Then I would not have been born. I'm 6th and if my mother didn't had natural abortions, I would have been the 7th. I think that this should be a matter of being able to support your kids or not. This should be the parameter that guides couples to have kids. That's my 2 p's at least...

CitizenGeek said:
... Women are not "forced" to have an abortion under China's one child policy. That is a grossly ignorant thing to say. China has been brave in tackling the problem of over-population by fining couples who choose to have more than one child. Couples can still have more than one child, but they lose many financial benefits. The government doesn't force all women who become pregnant after they've already had a child to have an abortion....
On theory, yes, on practice....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy

Read the criticism bit of it.
 
Maltos said:
Ryo Chan said:
lets just build space colonies, migrate into space, and start the gundam wars already.

That'll sort out overpopulation, 1 way or another
And then come the aliens. :roll:
HOW THE HELL are we supposed to migrate into space? The vastly superior aliens'd just kick our sorry asses out of wherever we try to colonise. The human race is doomed to rot on planet earth. [/prophecy]

Leona Lewis could become the intergalactic fairy and help us to defeat them?

all we need is some giant robo-spaceship and we're set.....

So anyone have one sitting around in their guarden?
 
Ryo Chan said:
Maltos said:
Ryo Chan said:
lets just build space colonies, migrate into space, and start the gundam wars already.

That'll sort out overpopulation, 1 way or another
And then come the aliens. :roll:
HOW THE HELL are we supposed to migrate into space? The vastly superior aliens'd just kick our sorry asses out of wherever we try to colonise. The human race is doomed to rot on planet earth. [/prophecy]

Leona Lewis could become the intergalactic fairy and help us to defeat them?

all we need is some giant robo-spaceship and we're set.....

So anyone have one sitting around in their guarden?

With Jimmy Page as the intergalactic hob-goblin?
 
chaos said:
Chaz said:
...True, but can an individual grasp how bad the overpopulation is? I say a family larger than 3 children is excessive, but that's my opinion....
Then I would not have been born. I'm 6th and if my mother didn't had natural abortions, I would have been the 7th. I think that this should be a matter of being able to support your kids or not. This should be the parameter that guides couples to have kids. That's my 2 p's at least..
Then I'll say I'm sorry that I killed you, or to be more precise, made sure you didn't exist.
However, since my mum was also one of a large family, then that would also mean that I would never had existed either.

However, I'm still stubborn about the opinion I gave that "3's a crowd," and anyone between the newly born and the 1st born are meerly part of the family. Humanity has trouble being able to love each other; passionately, blood related or as citizens. You really think the average person has enough love to grasp more than it's handful? It's impossible in terms of giving equal attention to each member of the family, as it is keeping in touch with every friend you've ever had.

(Note, this is straying from topic, I know. This always happens though, so I'll continue if permitted.)
 
chaos said:
Please go on =) who am I to say anything...
Well, can I ask how much attention you actually got from each and every member of your family? Also, how'd you feel towards other people; either family or friends; old, new and current.
It's just out of curiousity just, so that my theory isn't just a shallow look on life.
 
Chaz said:
chaos said:
Please go on =) who am I to say anything...
Well, can I ask how much attention you actually got from each and every member of your family? Also, how'd you feel towards other people; either family or friends; old, new and current.
It's just out of curiousity just, so that my theory isn't just a shallow look on life.

quit talking about attention, if it weren't for me, no one in our house would know u existed :p
 
CitizenGeek said:
melonpan said:
On a more relevant note is China's "One Child Policy", which one of the worst abusives of human rights in the world I'd say. I dunno if it was TV or from books but the stories I've read of how women are forced to have abortions, literally being dragged out of their houses to hospitals and having all kinds of dirty fluids stuck up their bits and pieces to kill the baby. There are no words to describe how wrong that is.

Women are not "forced" to have an abortion under China's one child policy. That is a grossly ignorant thing to say. China has been brave in tackling the problem of over-population by fining couples who choose to have more than one child. Couples can still have more than one child, but they lose many financial benefits. The government doesn't force all women who become pregnant after they've already had a child to have an abortion.

This time, you really need to do some research into the matter.

I'm racking my brain trying to think where I read the stories/saw the videos of this kind of stuff, but I know I did, so there's no point in outright denying it. How could you possibly know that it doesn't happen, anyway?
 
MrChom said:
I'd debate the idea the world is over-populated that came up earlier, and in reference to China...it's more that it's under-managed by people who are unwilling and unable to make hard decisions on all sorts of topics from forcing ancient agricultural systems to modernise, to a lack of modern high density housing combined with proper town-planning.

I agree that the world is not over populated, but i dont agree with you.

Contrary to popular belief. the uk, and most probably the world. does not suffer from a housing shortage. there are plenty of empty houses sitting there doing nothing (around 70k for the uk) which would solve said crisis.

The problem is, is that the homes are not where people want to live. hence when migration occurs, demand cripples demand. Town planning isnt really a problem, its a guessing game.

But funnily enough, if there is no demand for people to live there then it will turn into a ghost town. If you're interested i suggest you do some further reading on Detroit and whats happening there.
 
Nyu said:
MrChom said:
I'd debate the idea the world is over-populated that came up earlier, and in reference to China...it's more that it's under-managed by people who are unwilling and unable to make hard decisions on all sorts of topics from forcing ancient agricultural systems to modernise, to a lack of modern high density housing combined with proper town-planning.

I agree that the world is not over populated, but i dont agree with you.

Contrary to popular belief. the uk, and most probably the world. does not suffer from a housing shortage. there are plenty of empty houses sitting there doing nothing (around 70k for the uk) which would solve said crisis.

The problem is, is that the homes are not where people want to live. hence when migration occurs, demand cripples demand. Town planning isnt really a problem, its a guessing game.

But funnily enough, if there is no demand for people to live there then it will turn into a ghost town. If you're interested i suggest you do some further reading on Detroit and whats happening there.

If the houses are not where people want to live then the cheap solution, as Britain has shown in past, is to rebuild the local industry around an infrastructure to support it, and give it an incentive to STAY there.

Detroit shut down because the car plants and ancilliary industries shut up shop and moved. It's the same thing that happened with all the mining villages in the north, and to a smaller extent with Longbridge.

As for my comments I did point out that turning areas into modern high-density housing would allow for people to live in areas of high demand at a lesser rate. London may want to rid itself of the tower blocks but it also has to realise that with suburbs that now spread to Leicester in the North, and Southampton in the West someone has to wake up and realise that the demand there either has to be stopped or adequately dealt with.

Town Planning is a science, largely based on adequate living space close enough to industrial and commercial areas for employment, but far enough away to be attractive places to live. Secondly you need the service industries (Health, welfare, policing, schooling) evenly spread throughout (something people forgot in the 60s when building high-rise flats, hence why that lunacy failed).
 
If the houses are not where people want to live then the cheap solution, as Britain has shown in past, is to rebuild the local industry around an infrastructure to support it, and give it an incentive to STAY there.

Detroit shut down because the car plants and ancilliary industries shut up shop and moved. It's the same thing that happened with all the mining villages in the north, and to a smaller extent with Longbridge.

Indeed, but it's just a case of rinse and repeat. Agriculture was big in the 1800's, people moved to there. Industrial revolution, people moved there. The biggest problem that faces town planning and house construction in general is what is the next big step going to be and where will it happen. The miners and heavy industry collapse happened in one life time, extremely short. This house crisis is a weird new thing, 100 years ago you had generations of people working with one company.


As for my comments I did point out that turning areas into modern high-density housing would allow for people to live in areas of high demand at a lesser rate. London may want to rid itself of the tower blocks but it also has to realise that with suburbs that now spread to Leicester in the North, and Southampton in the West someone has to wake up and realise that the demand there either has to be stopped or adequately dealt with.

To some extent i agree, but how can you stop people from moving. The 60's was a crappy era to build in. rubbish materials, boring designs and to be honest i think most of the architects were on LSD. the victorians seemed to manage high density housing fine, why couldnt we.

A solution to cheap housing needs to be found. personally i think its medium-rise housing. georgian style. not high rise towers, nor ikea flat pack houses either.
 
melonpan said:
This time, you really need to do some research into the matter.

I'm racking my brain trying to think where I read the stories/saw the videos of this kind of stuff, but I know I did, so there's no point in outright denying it. How could you possibly know that it doesn't happen, anyway?

It happens.

But usually it's the case of boy/girl. if its the latter they will either be aborted, dumped, or simply murdered.

you want, prey for a boy. after all they will grow up and be able to provide for you in your old age. which is essentially what will happen.
 
Nyu said:
To some extent i agree, but how can you stop people from moving. The 60's was a crappy era to build in. rubbish materials, boring designs and to be honest i think most of the architects were on LSD. the victorians seemed to manage high density housing fine, why couldnt we.

A solution to cheap housing needs to be found. personally i think its medium-rise housing. georgian style. not high rise towers, nor ikea flat pack houses either.

You have to work two systems together. The people there, and the lag in demand means that the area will grow for years to come...people are ultimately tied in. Therefore you need to invest in infrastructure and places to live there, not just a quick fix as we've done before, but something that has a minimum projected life of at least 25 years (two and a half complete economic cycles).

At the same time you need to invest heavilly in regenerating unpopular places to try and dissuade people from moving to the city. Deals have been done before where a company is allowed to move in and generate jobs in one place provided they also move industry into a second area for x number of years.

Unfortunately the bodies that do this kind of stuff are regionalised, departmentalised, separated, and more often than not parts of them are farmed out to Quangos. Regeneration on the scale Britain needs isn't going to be done without someone as bloody-minded as Maggie Thatcher stepping in to make unpopular decisions (much as I despise the woman she did at least act enough like a dictator to get stuff done).
 
Speaking from personal experience i agree with abortion.
me and an ex had a scare and sat talking about all the possibilities and if it came down to it would we abort if she was pregnant. luckily she wasn't but we had decided that kids this young in life is bordeline teenager pregnancy statistics......i'd rather not be in the same group as a chav :lol:

Optimum age would be 22+ for me so abortion is the sensible route...

altho im just speaking personnally, everyones different and have their own views.
 
Er... just a little aside about the overpopulation problem. It isn't about housing or jobs, it's about lack of natural resources and cultivatable land - without chopping down forests which we need in order to be able to breathe.
 
ayase said:
Er... just a little aside about the overpopulation problem. It isn't about housing or jobs, it's about lack of natural resources and cultivatable land - without chopping down forests which we need in order to be able to breathe.

Naturally sustainable forests, and newly developed multilevel greenhouses (Capable of bringing natural light even at a few stories high) put paid to that. There is also the fact that sea-borne algae provide more air regeneration than trees, but hey.

A stable supply of wood, and glass along with recycled metals give us all the materiel we will ever need. The world has a net excess of food as it is (yes, that is right, people are starving but the world has a net excess of food), and bringing modern farming techniques to the world would only increase that potential.

The only issue, really, is fuel. Frankly with a vastly increased agricultural base you could make that alcohol based (from processed sugar beet) or oil based (from rapeseed or similar), even Hydrogen derived from some form of renewable process (Hydroelectric, wind, solar, geothermal).

In the 1800s there was an economist who postulated that the world and its geometric population increases could no longer be supported by a planet whose production was only Arithmetic in its growth rate. The problem was that he postualted this at the time of the Industrial Revolution, something that has earned him (perhaps wrongly) a mocking footnote. In that case necessity became the mother of invention and the world went under decades of turmoil in order to readjust itself to the new norm....something humanity is going to have to learn to deal with again.
 
Sorry to revive this thread but I missed it! And it was all boys, wasn't it? So I wanted to waste some time and breath if that's ok...

Before I ramble I just want to say that if it was me in the situation, it wouldn't be an issue unless there was a serious medical problem for the foetus. But then I'm lucky enough to live in an extremely cushy country with a relatively stable life, with the freedom to use some of the best contraception invented without paying for it too. Despite this, I don't particularly think abortion is uniformly evil - at least, it's no more evil than a lot of other things we regularly take for granted.

A little anarchic here but the shock tactics comparing aborting to killing a child are less worrisome to me. I see it as very similar to killing and eating animals (infant or otherwise) for food or drug testing, even though we've evolved to deal with that comfortably biologically and socially. I appreciate that people who say things like this tend to be labelled as maniacs but a life is a life to me. So there's some precedent for this convenient ignoring of niceties for the good of the existing humans, which has ended up desensitising me to what is effectively ending a human life in the long term.

All the people posting that it should be performed 2-4 weeks after conception - most women won't know they're even pregnant at that stage! You can't even detect a pregnancy reliably with a home test kit until 3-4 weeks after the act in a lot of cases, and even then if it's a real accident most won't know to check until they've missed a period. And even then on hormonal contraception they won't be having actual periods to miss until they experience other symptoms. Textbooks may say that periods are every month but for a large percentage of women they are not like clockwork. The only people who would be having abortions at 2-4 weeks (which would likely be chemical processes rather than the harrowing sweep described on page one) would be people who were regularly using abortion instead of actual contraception - hideous behaviour. I think the compromise of setting it as the time where the foetus could be saved if born prematurely is more reasonable.

I think it's a nice image people have of all those unwanted children being born and sent to orphanages, but actually adopting unwanted children seems to be falling out of fashion rapidly. Controversial thing to say here (sorry) but I personally think that the current trend of expecting fertility aid and complex surgical interventions to enable couples who would normally be unable to reproduce to do so is one of the factors that will, if anything, lead to more of a decline in adoptions. Very few people seem to actually have "adopt an unwanted child" in their life plan. Of all the men commenting on anti-abortion; you may agree that you'd be happy to adopt but how many actually plan to try to do so, even if you can have your own children? It's a harsh process. It's certainly not in my ideal plan as a flawed, selfish human, though it would be my first choice if I ended up wanting children in future and found I couldn't have them naturally.

Finally on a slight tangent to address the "three's a crowd" comment, you'd be surprised how well large families can work. I certainly was when I first experienced them through friends (I only have one sibling myself; typical working class UK family configuration). The parents may not be able to lavish as much individual attention on each child daily but on the flip side, you have loads of siblings to socialise with as well, so you don't end up neglected. I think chaos turned out well anyway :)

I didn't actually vote in the poll as even after all these words I'm not wholly in one camp or another. I suppose I support choice, but in an ideal world it would be lovely if it didn't have to be an issue in the first place.

R
 
My opinion: Abortion is fine untill the moment the babys' heart starts beating. From there, I'm against it.

Though in the case of rape/Incest... well that's a different story.
 
Oh, I thought of something I forgot to say. Since someone's posted since I'll just add an epilogue :)

I don't agree that it's right to simplify it down so much that if a woman becomes pregnant she should be looked down upon unless she raises the child and loves it. The fact is if she's liable to harm herself or the child (e.g. attempting an abortion herself or killing herself), possibly due to mental health issues or emotional immaturity, it's not so clear cut. Obviously she shouldn't have been having sex in the first place (and I personally think men who'd sleep with a vulnerable person like that are sometimes borderline rapists...), but sometimes being understanding is better than being 'right'.

I have personally never slept with anyone without stopping to think first whether I could live with bearing a child by them if things went wrong. I don't think many people stop to think about that these days but it made me feel better about my decisions. Even if, looking back, I realise I was not quite as clever at judging situations as a youngster as I thought I was at the time!

Having said that I would never condemn someone else for having an abortion just because I probably wouldn't. It's impossible to understand the complex issues involved without being them. We've evolved to desperately want to have children as our driving biological impulse but socially we're conditioned to repress that as much as possible; it's no wonder so many of us have trouble making good choices about the situation!

R
 
Back
Top