Abortion

[CitizenGeek]

The problem is though, its only a Foetus up until about 8 weeks (correct me if im wrong, it may be 4. I cant remember off hand, and im eating so im not gonna google it).

I'm unsure as to when a foetus becomes a baby, also. However, I do agree with melonpan that once a baby can survive outside of the womb, then it's a baby and no longer a foetus and is entitled to the right to life then. So, while I do support abortion on demand, I only support it up to a certain point (and most abortion laws are constructed thus, so I fully support currently existing abortion laws in most Western countries).

Yeah, it's the effect on the ex-mother after the procedure and a new life being taken, but ultimately the word "abortion" defines the medial procedure.

That's very much an anti-abortion slanted evaluation of abortion. What I meant was that abortion is not just about the procedure, but it's about the decision to not have a baby, something that completely alters a woman's life.

Do you always have to be so belittling in the majority of things you say?

I don't intend it, but I'm not particularly bothered if what I say comes across like that.

I'd really like to read your in-depth views on this matter from start to finish, and your absolute judgement on the issue.

I was going to do that, but ayase and chaos have articulated my exact opinions in a much more elaborate and effective way than I probably could have. So I'd essentially just be repeating what they said were I to state my own opinion.

 

[ayase]

have u not seen the news where people go in for a normal operation and come out altered in some way by rogue surgeons who are experimenting illegal treatments?

A little off topic here, but I can't say that I have actually, Ryo - but if you want to post a link I'd be interested in reading it.

 

[Ryo Chan]

looks like i was slightly off with the experimenting, but i found the article i was thinking of

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-1-24/50806.html

so i hearby retract my China comment

 

[ayase]

looks like i was slightly off with the experimenting, but i found the article i was thinking of

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-1-24/50806.html

so i hearby retract my China comment

And I have to agree that that's fairly dodgy in an "organs on demand" kind of way. I do think organ donation should be an opt out, rather than an opt in, scheme though (thereby still giving you a choice :wink: that being this thread's important word.)

 

[Chaz]

I'm a little confused by your second post, Chaz. The option I would allow people is the option to have an abortion. You seem to be saying that people should have to give birth and look after their children themselves, and not be able to abandon their them. Good luck enforcing that. Did you see my link about Romania?

Well, I guess then because the general public dont give a crap about mistreatment and what they believe their culture's "Villian" is acceptable, then there is nothing they can do.

Looked at your post against Spyro too (as well as Romanian link) just now.

So a woman who doesn't want a baby is forced to have one. Maybe all that happened was a condom broke - She resents caring for the child, considers it to have ruined her life. Abuses it. The child grows up unwanted and unloved. Or she realises she likes being a mother, loves the child and both lead a happy life together. Like I say - flip a coin. Life or Death. Good Life or **** Life. Would you know any different if you'd never been born?

If the condom broke, why not have an "after-morning pill" to define the fact they wont be pregnant? Is it that hard to pop a pill and wear a condom, or is 2 x 98% of effective contraception not worth it?
I want to say to that kind of person "Hard luck, that must be tough on you." Then I'd figured that then the arguement I'm trying to get across would be waning because of sympathy. You SHOULD, by no special treatment what-so-ever (i.e. waterworks), take responsibility for your actions.

As for the Romania thing, maybe if the community were aware of the fact that the woman is clearly not looking towards the child's well-being, i.e. drinking 5 largers each night during pregnancy, then maybe it puts pressure on the woman to do a good job.
Otherwise, if the woman (or even the male) continues to behave irresponsibly, the neighbours should have the gaul to call the authorities. What are we, pussycats?
But like I said above, I guess the community doesn't give a crap, unless it's to themselves.

Besides, the counties rules were contradictory: You can have birth before the age of 25, yet you can be a super-mom afterwords with 10 kids... What? You're wanting to have babies as a middle agaed man/woman, and then start poping them out for "Special benefits"? You're a moron of a government, and asking for the troubles.

 

[Kurogane]

A child isn't a child until it's out of the womb, passed the lips and into the towel.

 

[Ryo Chan]

A child isn't a child until it's out of the womb, passed the lips and into the towel.

am i the only one who thought that sounded like a child is born by throwing up?

Piccolo eat ur heart out

 

[ayase]

As for the Romania thing, maybe if the community were aware of the fact that the woman is clearly not looking towards the child's well-being, i.e. drinking 5 largers each night during pregnancy, then maybe it puts pressure on the woman to do a good job.
Otherwise, if the woman (or even the male) continues to behave irresponsibly, the neighbours should have the gaul to call the authorities. What are we, pussycats?
But like I said above, I guess the community doesn't give a crap, unless it's to themselves.
Besides, the counties rules were contradictory: You can have birth before the age of 25, yet you can be a super-mom afterwords with 10 kids... What? You're wanting to have babies as a middle agaed man/woman, and then start poping them out for "Special benefits"? You're a moron of a government, and asking for the troubles.

Of course Ceauşescu Romania is an example of the worst it could possibly be, but I'm saying why create extra human suffering by forcing people to have and look after a baby they don't want? No matter what you do, you can't stop people just abandoning a baby in a cardboard box without we go down the whole DNA profiling Big Brother society route. Your point about a need for more caring, communal society is a good one, but do you see society moving in that direction?

I also just want to get across that I'm not "against" you or Spyro, I just enjoy debating.

 

[melonpan]

so i hearby retract my China comment

On a more relevant note is China's "One Child Policy", which one of the worst abusives of human rights in the world I'd say. I dunno if it was TV or from books but the stories I've read of how women are forced to have abortions, literally being dragged out of their houses to hospitals and having all kinds of dirty fluids stuck up their bits and pieces to kill the baby. There are no words to describe how wrong that is.

 

[Ryo Chan]

so i hearby retract my China comment

On a more relevant note is China's "One Child Policy", which one of the worst abusives of human rights in the world I'd say. I dunno if it was TV or from books but the stories I've read of how women are forced to have abortions, literally being dragged out of their houses to hospitals and having all kinds of dirty fluids stuck up their bits and pieces to kill the baby. There are no words to describe how wrong that is.

completly forgot about that myself..... doesn't this mean i need to retract me retractions now?

 

[Chaz]

I also just want to get across that I'm not "against" you or Spyro, I just enjoy debating.

True, and so do I. I just sound passionate because it's a deep discussion, unlike "Victoria Beckham's Annorexia" etc. Not a gossiper.

As for the Romania thing, maybe if the community were aware of the fact that the woman is clearly not looking towards the child's well-being, i.e. drinking 5 largers each night during pregnancy, then maybe it puts pressure on the woman to do a good job.
Otherwise, if the woman (or even the male) continues to behave irresponsibly, the neighbours should have the gaul to call the authorities. What are we, pussycats?
But like I said above, I guess the community doesn't give a crap, unless it's to themselves.
Besides, the counties rules were contradictory: You can have birth before the age of 25, yet you can be a super-mom afterwords with 10 kids... What? You're wanting to have babies as a middle agaed man/woman, and then start poping them out for "Special benefits"? You're a moron of a government, and asking for the troubles.

Of course Ceauşescu Romania is an example of the worst it could possibly be, but I'm saying why create extra human suffering by forcing people to have and look after a baby they don't want? No matter what you do, you can't stop people just abandoning a baby in a cardboard box without we go down the whole DNA profiling Big Brother society route. Your point about a need for more caring, communal society is a good one, but do you see society moving in that direction?

True, and that's a damn shame in terms of the fractured community.
As for the forcing baby thing, I can definately see exceptional people who do abbandon the babies, and they get away with it. But I hope they're thinking for the rest of their lives in regret, in "what ifs" and uncertainty. It's immoral to turn your back on something/one, and thus consequences are always (or in my view, must be) given.

 

[Kurogane]

A child isn't a child until it's out of the womb, passed the lips and into the towel.

am i the only one who thought that sounded like a child is born by throwing up?

Piccolo eat ur heart out

Kekekekekeke

 

[melonpan]

so i hearby retract my China comment

On a more relevant note is China's "One Child Policy", which one of the worst abusives of human rights in the world I'd say. I dunno if it was TV or from books but the stories I've read of how women are forced to have abortions, literally being dragged out of their houses to hospitals and having all kinds of dirty fluids stuck up their bits and pieces to kill the baby. There are no words to describe how wrong that is.

completly forgot about that myself..... doesn't this mean i need to retract me retractions now?

Those were about the organ snatching, these (abortion) require a certain more powerful opinions : P

 

[ayase]

I'd say the way the one child policy has been implemented is closer to pro-death than either of the points being debated here. However, at least they realise the problems over-population poses. Must have seemed like a good idea at the time, but it's precisely the kind of thing I mean about the danger of putting these decisions in the hands of the state rather than individuals.

 

[Chaz]

I'd say the way the one child policy has been implemented is closer to pro-death than either of the points being debated here. However, at least they realise the problems over-population poses. Must have seemed like a good idea at the time, but it's precisely the kind of thing I mean about the danger of putting these decisions in the hands of the state rather than individuals.

True, but can an individual grasp how bad the overpopulation is? I say a family larger than 3 children is excessive, but that's my opinion.
Contradictorary, the Government only care about the stats, which aren't always trustworthy: "There are lies, damn lies and then statistics." I.e. there is a 237,177 number of families over the limit. Statistics will say "About 250,000 families are in danger of legal action."

 

[ayase]

I'd say the way the one child policy has been implemented is closer to pro-death than either of the points being debated here. However, at least they realise the problems over-population poses. Must have seemed like a good idea at the time, but it's precisely the kind of thing I mean about the danger of putting these decisions in the hands of the state rather than individuals.

True, but can an individual grasp how bad the overpopulation is? I say a family larger than 3 children is excessive, but that's my opinion.
Contradictorary, the Government only care about the stats, which aren't always trustworthy: "There are lies, damn lies and then statistics." I.e. there is a 237,177 number of families over the limit. Statistics will say "About 250,000 families are in danger of legal action."

I really meant the decisions to have children or not, or to have an abortion. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't factor overpopulation into these decisions, but that doesn't make it any less of a problem. The only way to solve that problem is Space Colonisation! Hey, something I can be upbeat about! :wink:

 

[CitizenGeek]

On a more relevant note is China's "One Child Policy", which one of the worst abusives of human rights in the world I'd say. I dunno if it was TV or from books but the stories I've read of how women are forced to have abortions, literally being dragged out of their houses to hospitals and having all kinds of dirty fluids stuck up their bits and pieces to kill the baby. There are no words to describe how wrong that is.

Women are not "forced" to have an abortion under China's one child policy. That is a grossly ignorant thing to say. China has been brave in tackling the problem of over-population by fining couples who choose to have more than one child. Couples can still have more than one child, but they lose many financial benefits. The government doesn't force all women who become pregnant after they've already had a child to have an abortion.

Besides, that issue is completely independent of the question of whether abortion should be legal or not.

 

[MrChom]

I'd debate the idea the world is over-populated that came up earlier, and in reference to China...it's more that it's under-managed by people who are unwilling and unable to make hard decisions on all sorts of topics from forcing ancient agricultural systems to modernise, to a lack of modern high density housing combined with proper town-planning.

Just to give you some idea of how not-overcrowded the Earth is...if all of the Earth had the same population as the UK....the population of Planet Earth would be 36.5 billion people. Even if you knock off 20 billion people from that to allow for places like the Sahara you still end up with nearly treble our current population.

As for the earlier comment that no one had brought morality in...I thought I had. I've said abortion is murder, something I find very VERY immoral. I suppose people are a bit careful over morality, though, because that way lies the whole debate over if religion and morality are intertwined...and...blech.

 

[Ryo Chan]

lets just build space colonies, migrate into space, and start the gundam wars already.

That'll sort out overpopulation, 1 way or another

 

[Maltos]

lets just build space colonies, migrate into space, and start the gundam wars already.

That'll sort out overpopulation, 1 way or another

And then come the aliens. :roll:
HOW THE HELL are we supposed to migrate into space? The vastly superior aliens'd just kick our sorry asses out of wherever we try to colonise. The human race is doomed to rot on planet earth. [/prophecy]