Yet more crackdown on illegal downloading

[shira]

I've been informed that Panorama covered this tonight, and a light googling has led me to these articles;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front ... 567640.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8559059.stm

Here's an interesting excerpt from the first link;

File-sharing can be viewed as a way of spreading a band's name and establishing a fan base.

Research published by the think tank Demos last autumn supports this view: those who admitted to unlawfully file-share music spent nearly double on legitimate sales than those who stuck to lawful services.

Parliament are taking a very bad approach to their lawmaking, when statistics like this exist. Can't they understand, a lot of albums people download they wouldn't actually buy anyway. Don't they factor in the extra merch sales and gig tickets sold? And more to the point why are big names in the music industry being allowed to have such a large effect over lawmaking. Parliament need to act independantly, and no be pressured by industry fat cats like Louie ****ing Walsh..

Gotta love the way he says "It's a real real problem" while sitting in his nicely sized house there. (Probably infact a mansion).

Anyway, your thoughts?

The bill will have its third and final reading in the House of Lords next week, before it goes back to the Commons.

Commentators have suggested it may be forced through before the upcoming General Election.

 

[Ryo Chan]

it won't happen, isp's already have said they won't follow and Frances attempt at it was blocked by the EU due to human rights

 

[shira]

it won't happen, isp's already have said they won't follow and Frances attempt at it was blocked by the EU due to human rights

The issue is, if legislation comes in, ISPs may have to comply. Human Rights and basic Liberties are slowly disappearing in Britain.

 

[ayase]

Anyway, your thoughts?

Who are the biggest downloaders who don't buy? Those who couldn't otherwise afford it. Middle income people will download a bit, buy a bit. Low or no income people will download but not buy. Should they really be working to earn money then buying these things? Yes. But are there enough well paying jobs for them to get, work hard at and earn enough to legitimately purchase the things they used to get free? Er, no. Even less so now.

Not everyone can earn enough to have everything they want - that much should be obvious, but the government and consumer culture carry on trying to sell people a dream they can't have. It's that whole "You wouldn't steal a car..." thing. Such is the power of people's greed when hopped up on consumerism, they probably would if they thought they could get away with it. I probably would. There's a nice Maserati Quattroporte down the street. Is there any wonder people steal music and video when they're easily obtainable without risk and sold to people 24/7 on TV and radio?

Long story short, I feel sorry for artists who aren't fairly compensated for their work, but consumerism sowed the wind. Only I don't think illegal downloading is the whirlwind. It's one part of the much bigger picture, which is that people are going to realise they can't have everything they want and will come to view the government and corporations are the ones who are preventing them. What then?

Don't mind me, in a contemplative mood.

 

[Project-2501]

The issue is, if legislation comes in, ISPs may have to comply. Human Rights and basic Liberties are slowly disappearing in Britain.

Since when was internet access and stealing stuff a liberty or a right? Something you never had can't be taken away from you.

And lets not go down the 'but copying is not stealing' line

 

[ayase]

Since when was internet access and stealing stuff a liberty or a right? Something you never had can't be taken away from you.

It doesn't matter if it is or it isn't. What the law decides is peripheral if something has become a right in the minds of a large number of people - did people stop drinking alcohol during prohibition? If you were downloading stuff and are then stopped, then you have had an ability taken away from you and people will feel hard done by, however right or wrong that may be.

 

[shira]

The issue is, if legislation comes in, ISPs may have to comply. Human Rights and basic Liberties are slowly disappearing in Britain.

Since when was internet access and stealing stuff a liberty or a right? Something you never had can't be taken away from you.

And lets not go down the 'but copying is not stealing' line

What i'm saying is, our rights to privacy are slowly disappearing. ISPs will now be made to constantly monitor our downloads, where as before they could only look into our transfers should we be downloading an extortionate amount. Also some websites are looking to be blocked by law, which is against freedom of expression. Two basic human rights being infringed that are mentioned in the article if you bothered to read it.

The Liberties part was referring to the proposed legislation in the Coroners & Justice Bill. When mentioning that they're disappearing "in Britain" I was, believe it or not, referring to more than just this one piece of legislation.

Another issue is, this Act is being set up (from what I can see by checking Parliament's website) as a parent act so that a sole individual (Secretary of State) can create masses of Delegated Legislation. This is undemocratic in every sense.

You see my point? Parliament need to be listening to the Think Tank (which I quoted in my first post) as opposed to fat cats in the music industry.

 

[Zin5ki]

I am of the opinion that government Think Tanks need to be substituted with government Think Tank Engines.
They'll move their eyes gaily, take pride in their usefulness and only change their expressions off-camera. Ringo Starr can narrate. It'll be a thing of genius.

 

[kupocake]

The whole argument is so tiring, I've long since given up caring.. or illegally downloading music for that matter. On the one hand, there are so many cheap or free and legal ways of experiencing new music that I don't fully understand why anyone bothers pirating it. On the other, I'm left wondering why the music industry at large still thinks it's the holy knight of the creative arts, and why they believe any of us wouldn't like to see some very, very unnecessary human beings in the gutter at the expense of royalties going to the talented few.

All I'm interested in is how this will pan out in relation to anime in the UK. I honestly expect nothing to happen. I can't really see a crackdown coming as the result of one of our local distributors, since the comically lethargic movement of this bill betrays the fact that we're talking about pressure from mega-corporations, not outfits that genuinely need every penny they can get. But would they even want to do anything? I struggle to think of an anime series I've purchased that I didn't in some way illegally obtain at first.

I am of the opinion that government Think Tanks need to be substituted with government Think Tank Engines.
They'll move their eyes gaily, take pride in their usefulness and only change their expressions off-camera. Ringo Starr can narrate. It'll be a thing of genius.

edit: And on that subject, if the Music Industry thinks I owe them for that Safety Dance mp3, I don't give a flying ****.

 

[memorium]

this is just silly, i think that file sharing does spread the word, just look at Gama Bomb, they've released their latest album for free, and then they released said album on CD with bonus tracks later on for about £5

but the thing is, what if said album has been some 15 years out of print and that CDs of the thing cost something stupid like £50? I would DL it for free, because:

1) the artist makes no money out of it
2) the label makes no money out of it

besides, i don't support the Major Labels, they can all rot for all i care, they're only in it for the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SWB4ZIhHy0 and as a result most of them allow for pretty much no artisitc freedom as a result

 

[Project-2501]

If you were downloading stuff and are then stopped, then you have had an ability taken away from you and people will feel hard done by, however right or wrong that may be.

The fact that you can (mostly) get away with it still doesn't make it any form of right. Lots of people get away with murder, does that mean they have a right to keep doing it?

What i'm saying is, our rights to privacy are slowly disappearing. ISPs will now be made to constantly monitor our downloads, where as before they could only look into our transfers should we be downloading an extortionate amount. Also some websites are looking to be blocked by law, which is against freedom of expression. Two basic human rights being infringed that are mentioned in the article if you bothered to read it.

The IWF already forces ISPs to block some websites. So what would be new? And your data is going over other people's networks, they are under no obligation not to look at it. Its outside of your house, its in the public domain.

But the big question is do you really care so little about the people who make music and anime that you are happy to download and deprive them of a wage? If it is really worth nothing to you why do you even watch it? If you get enjoyment from it then would it not be fair to give something back to those who made it?

You'd be pretty miffed if at the end of the month your boss said 'sorry, not paying you this month, we really liked what you did but have decided we're having your time for free'.

 

[Ryo Chan]

you need to remember the broadband tax is comming

you really thing the goverment is going to cost themselves money but cutting off users?

less users, less money for their 2nd homes

 

[shira]

The IWF already forces ISPs to block some websites. So what would be new?

It's still infringing on freedom of expression. It still shouldn't happen. I didn't say things are fine as they stand did I?

But the big question is do you really care so little about the people who make music and anime that you are happy to download and deprive them of a wage? If it is really worth nothing to you why do you even watch it? If you get enjoyment from it then would it not be fair to give something back to those who made it?

But I do. I go to see gigs of bands that I wouldn't have known about without downloading. I'm a huge fan of Metallica, Megadeth and Children of Bodom, and between those I have 8 tee's and a hoodie. Those bands would have £0 off of me if it weren't for the ablility to listen to their stuff before hand. Now I like it, i'm going out of my way to try and buy all of their albums.

You'd be pretty miffed if at the end of the month your boss said 'sorry, not paying you this month, we really liked what you did but have decided we're having your time for free'.

I wouldn't be to pissed if I thought i'd be making more money in other areas of my job though. Read example above.

 

[memorium]

i do pretty much what you do Spyro, i listen to bands on a site such as Youtube or Myspace then i go out and buy their CDs, without those sorts of things i would've never have heard of Cynic or Cannibal Corpse

 

[Project-2501]

But I do. I go to see gigs of bands that I wouldn't have known about without downloading. I'm a huge fan of Metallica, Megadeth and Children of Bodom, and between those I have 8 tee's and a hoodie. Those bands would have £0 off of me if it weren't for the ablility to listen to their stuff before hand. Now I like it, i'm going out of my way to try and buy all of their albums.

You really think the artists made money from you buying a few t-shirts?

Either way its all stuff you can see/hear on TV/Radio. If the internet never existed all those bands would still have done well. Heck, they all formed BEFORE the internet and did very well.

And you could listen on an legit internet radio station.

I wouldn't be to pissed if I thought i'd be making more money in other areas of my job though. Read example above.

Then what is stopping the animators doing the same? "sod this, I can make more money doing something else".

Now a job doesn't take anything physically from you, just like copying, why should anyone get paid? If you didn't have a job you'd just sit at home earning nothing, so its no overall loss.

Ryo, you will get charged that tax even if you don't have internet access.

 

[shira]

Do I think artists make money from me buying t-shirts? Yes. More so than if I bought nothing. I also go to all the gigs that band put on, and as you quoted i'm currently buying all of their albums. They're making money off of someone that never would have listened to them otherwise.

Also, what radio station plays a good selection of Brutal/Death/Melodeath/Thrash metal? That I can get on FM? We have no digital here.

With regard to the animators, I buy anime that I like that i've downloaded.

Please stop ignoring the statistic I posted in Post 1.

Research published by the think tank Demos last autumn supports this view: those who admitted to unlawfully file-share music spent nearly double on legitimate sales than those who stuck to lawful services.

 

[Project-2501]

Given than 90% of statistics are made up I don't believe it

Find a select few who said 'sure I bought a CD after downloading' and make a statistic from that. But didn't they say that even the leechers were only spending something like £70 on average. Wow.

At last years expos I must have spent £6-700 on DVDs. Bloody heck I must download SOO MUCH!! :roll:

 

[memorium]

Also, what radio station plays a good selection of Brutal/Death/Melodeath/Thrash metal? That I can get on FM? We have no digital here.

no FM station plays it, the closest thing is Bruce Dickinson's Rock Show on Radio 6, and even then that's Digital

we need a good, full time Metal Station tbh

back on topic, the artists do make money out of band merch, if it's official that is, if it's unofficial then they don't make **** really, but either way, it still advertises the band i guess

 

[shira]

Given than 90% of statistics are made up I don't believe it

Okay... So you choose to ignore all statistics and just make guesses at how you think other people spend money. Sounds like a solid argument to me :roll:

 

[Project-2501]

if it's unofficial then they don't make **** really

Bingo!

And a statistic from a group out to show the government is wrong is about as valid as the statistics the government use to show they are right.

You just picked the one that backs up your claims. Just like climate change