Troubles buying anime (was part of the MVM thread)

[Reaper gI]

I don't think it's really helpful to say all fans of material in its original language will most likely have downloaded it illegally, so companies should only rehash readily available American releases :s

For one thing, it's simply untrue! And the fact that subtitled shows do fine if they are live action proves this. It's just an unusual situation that anime viewers are happy to watch subs when they are [often illegally] free but magically want dubs instead when they're spending money. I think all shows which can support a dub should have one for the good of the dub fans, but when a show can't I'd rather have the show than not. More choice makes me happy.

Do you have any idea how rare fansubs for live action releases are?
The fanbase simply isn't big or keen enough to get fansubs made.

My money (as a sub-only anime fan) mostly goes on manga or chara goods, the products it's much much easier for me to actually buy. I'm totally prepared to spend ~£100-£200 on a series and normally have done before it comes out here. e.g Bakemonogatari, Magical girl Lyrical Nanoha Striker S, Hayate no Gotoku, Higurashi, Kare Kano, Clannad, Cardcaptor Sakura, Lucky Star...
That's at least £800 spent due to those anime, and only ~£70 going to it's English anime licensor, courtesy of the Lucky Star manga. (then ~£160 going on the anime themselves, only £25 to the UK)

Quite a lot of us are fans of the franchises not the specific adaptation, so being outmanoeuvred by book publishers, with no VAT or BBFC requirements slowing imports and already less contractual hold-ups, can't be good for you.
In my situation with only 10-30% of my buying power going to the show itself, if it ever gets an English release, and even less to an eventual UK release.

That's what amounts to an average of a 97% drop in value from the time of Japanese release to a UK one.
How much of this is accounted for in licensing?

 

[Rui]

Sorry, I split this off because I think it was mostly aimed at me rather than MVM ^^; and I'm not really sure they just want to be told how much money they can never possibly see. Or was the last part a question for them?

R

 

[Reaper gI]

Last part was actually a relevant question. Despite going on a rant my case, or others like it (e.g. for teenagers with lower disposable income) does raise some points:

Market potential loss over time, especially due to franchises being split into separate licenceable properties. Where originally the anime is often made with an emphasis to promote sales of the other media, not often itself.
As I recall that something similar was cited as responsible for Sailor Moon's anime bombing (the market got cannibalised by the manga's release).


Do licenses get cheaper if the tie-ins (or original) is released first, due to this reducing purchasing power of fans? Does the advertising benefit outweigh this? (I presume not due to prevalence of scanlations, i.e. it's benefit in terms of franchise awareness is comparatively negligible to theirs)

Do fans (existing, or potential) just want the franchise in any form and will be satisfied with whichever they are exposed to first?

Is the cannibalisation equal in both directions or will it always benefit the manga (due to coming out faster, esp with delays between UK and US only for anime)?

My case study was a little extreme (2.5% going to the local licensor, 15-20% on DVDs at all), but that's close to the real numbers

 

[ilmaestro]

My money (as a sub-only anime fan) mostly goes on manga or chara goods, the products it's much much easier for me to actually buy.

It is quite trivial to import DVDs/BDs.

I would also love to hear the answers to some of your other questions, but unfortunately it feels like the sort of things that US/UK companies will never divulge the numbers on.

 

[Reaper gI]

My money (as a sub-only anime fan) mostly goes on manga or chara goods, the products it's much much easier for me to actually buy.

It is quite trivial to import DVDs/BDs.

I would also love to hear the answers to some of your other questions, but unfortunately it feels like the sort of things that US/UK companies will never divulge the numbers on.

US disks normally fine, Japanese the price is just too steep ( ~£1/ minute), even when spending hundreds. Cheaper reissues might be viable, but they normally come late and can still cost hundreds for bare-bones releases.

Also the manga and chara goods are actually sold here by retailers, taking the problems of personal imports away.

e.g. for Railgun, where it's still prohibitive to import, the US release is indefinitely delayed. The manga is already available here from shops, and Kotobukiya (at least) is officially importing figures.

 

[ilmaestro]

Well, to me that sounds a lot like wanting to have your cake and eat it.

edit: you know what, never mind the rest of the post I'd typed up.

 

[Rui]

Sorry, it was genuinely hard for me to understand where the "you don't understand anything, Rui" ended in the first post and it became directed at someone else ^^; I'll probably regret this but...

It would be interesting to know how flexible licensors are, though from what I have heard in the past it's different for every single show and it's more likely, if anything, that a series having a top selling manga in the US would raise licensing costs rather than lowering them since it would be seen as extra publicity.

I know that the standard kneejerk response to that will be that the illegal manga was available already yada yada, but that raises the profile of a series amongst an audience that as far as I can see freely admits they aren't interested in opening their wallets very far when the legit DVDs appear. So for the Japanese companies, it's probably a big deal to see a manga series actually selling well overseas and indicates that they can bump up the cost of a license for the anime.

I don't think I'd heard that the Sailor Moon manga (Tokypop/Smile edition presumably) was regarded as having cannibalised the R1 release particularly; the manga is completely different to the anime and the Tokyopop release was horrible to boot. When I bought my ADV sets for Sailor Moon season 1 and 2, the feeling I had was that it was going out of print very swiftly and could have definitely continued to sell more if it had had a chance. It wasn't a case of seeing millions of unsold copies everywhere because the (very average) manga had destroyed its market. In the case of some series, the anime and manga (or game, or book) are so alike that having both isn't necessary for a fan, but for others they feel like completely different beasts.

I also wonder how many fans really allocate a budget per series like that. I know I don't - I'll only spend £30 or so on a punt on a mediocre series but for the things I fangirl over most I'll keep spending until they stop making stuff for me to buy. Having a limited budget is understandable, but arbitrarily assigning a set figure you're willing to spend per series doesn't feel practical to me.

R

(Before any pedantry occurs when I say "DVDs" I mean any home video release without specifically meaning that format.)

 

[Reaper gI]

I also wonder how many fans really allocate a budget per series like that. I know I don't - I'll only spend £30 or so on a punt on a mediocre series but for the things I fangirl over most I'll keep spending until they stop making stuff for me to buy. Having a limited budget is understandable, but arbitrarily assigning a set figure you're willing to spend per series doesn't feel practical to me.

R

This is a case of limited budget, mostly.
Also the fact that English anime releases are mostly only £30-60.

How many people will actually buy Japanese disks they can't watch (due to lack of subs) essentially as a charity donation.

 

[Vashdaman]

Arggghh, Rui and Illmaestro now have the same avatar...how will I ever tell you apart now?

 

[Rui]

Arggghh, Rui and Illmaestro now have the same avatar...how will I ever tell you apart now?

I won't be able to keep mine like this for more than a day or two. I die inside each time I see it :/

R

 

[Vashdaman]

I won't be able to keep mine like this for more than a day or two. I die inside each time I see it :/

Yeah it doesn't really seem very "Rui" to me.

Back to the thread though, err what does Reapers first post actually mean? Its more confusing than an episode of Gundam. Is he saying he spends £100-£200 on a anime series imported from Japan or the states? If so why does a DVD series cost you so much!!?? Wait for a boxset or something. Or is he saying he doesn't import and just buys chara goods(which are..)? Or is he saying he spends £800 on a series??

I'll tell you my troubles buying anime, I consider spending £20- £30 on a series I actually like to be too much, let alone the £45 they try steal off me in HMV. Anime also never seems to go on sale (well rarely) in actual shops, meaning I'm able to actually buy almost no anime as a result.
I'm ok with that as I have now discovered free legal streaming, but anime is bloody overpriced in this country. Not that its the fault of people like MVM or Beez, but the fact still remains...

 

[Animefreak17]

@vashdaman look closely and you can tell

 

[ayase]

I'll tell you my troubles buying anime, I consider spending £20- £30 on a series I actually like to be too much, let alone the £45 they try steal off me in HMV. Anime also never seems to go on sale (well rarely) in actual shops, meaning I'm able to actually buy almost no anime as a result.
I'm ok with that as I have now discovered free legal streaming, but anime is bloody overpriced in this country.

Compared to the US, yes. Compared to Japan, very no. Japan is too expensive. The US is too cheap. Our prices, I think, are pretty fair. I've happily collected series I like at £10-£12 a disc in the past, and would have been happy to continue doing so.

My problem now is that they've moving away from single disc releases to boxed sets, but the sets actually seem worth *less* to me than the old single disc releases because of the cheap way they're packaged. If they had switched to releasing nice artboxes I would have been only too happy to fork over £50-£70 a series. Plastic bricks I can grudgingly import for £20, so why would I pay any more? And that's being generous and not factoring in the delay between the US and UK release dates...

 

[Reaper gI]

I won't be able to keep mine like this for more than a day or two. I die inside each time I see it :/

Back to the thread though, err what does Reapers first post actually mean? Its more confusing than an episode of Gundam.

I even paragraphed it

Is he saying he spends £100-£200 on a anime series imported from Japan or the states?

Nope £100-£200, excluding the DVD/BDs. (which I'm mostly not buying, because they're not licensed yet/any more)
Spend due to a series, not on

If so why does a DVD series cost you so much!!?? Wait for a boxset or something. Or is he saying he doesn't import and just buys chara goods(which are..)? Or is he saying he spends £800 on a series??

Has spent £100-£200 on manga and/or chara goods from each of those 8 series.
£100*8= £800

Chara goods= merchandise baring the likeness of a chara (rough TL:moe character) :figures, t-shirts,... ,packets of rice.
PS: and everything ayase just said. that £800 could buy maybe 1-2 of those shows at their Japanese prices

 

[Rui]

I anticipate the response being that that explanation actually made things more confusing than ever ^^;

R

 

[Reaper gI]

At least it's concise.
Why did you behead Azu-nyan not Yui...

 

[Vashdaman]

I'll tell you my troubles buying anime, I consider spending £20- £30 on a series I actually like to be too much, let alone the £45 they try steal off me in HMV. Anime also never seems to go on sale (well rarely) in actual shops, meaning I'm able to actually buy almost no anime as a result.
I'm ok with that as I have now discovered free legal streaming, but anime is bloody overpriced in this country.

Compared to the US, yes. Compared to Japan, very no. Japan is too expensive. The US is too cheap. Our prices, I think, are pretty fair. I've happily collected series I like at £10-£12 a disc in the past, and would have been happy to continue doing so.

My problem now is that they've moving away from single disc releases to boxed sets, but the sets actually seem worth *less* to me than the old single disc releases because of the cheap way they're packaged. If they had switched to releasing nice artboxes I would have been only too happy to fork over £50-£70 a series. Plastic bricks I can grudgingly import for £20, so why would I pay any more? And that's being generous and not factoring in the delay between the US and UK release dates...

I recently went to HMV with goal of buying Baccano! They almost had me ready to spend £45 pounds on it!! Thankfully I slapped myself hard in the face and snapped out of my consumerist trace before I actually went through with it. Baccano's not even 20 episodes long. Like wise I recently went to Forbidden planet to buy Planetes, they were charging £40 per half a series, thats £80 for the whole hog! They might as well be whipping down their pants and slapping their balls in face.

Interestingly I'm also of the opposite view from you on packaging. I'm not saying I don't appreciate nice packaging but I really could take it or leave it to be honest. I'd be happier buying a show at a cheaper rate and receiving it in a totally non descript, bog standard piece of cardboard with no needless extras. I buy anime to simply watch it, I'm not a collector and never will be, frankly I would be happiest if DVDs just came in brown paper envelopes, making life easy for both me and the environment.

@Reaper, thanks for the explanation. That was clearer.

 

[Sparrowsabre7]

I'll tell you my troubles buying anime, I consider spending £20- £30 on a series I actually like to be too much, let alone the £45 they try steal off me in HMV. Anime also never seems to go on sale (well rarely) in actual shops, meaning I'm able to actually buy almost no anime as a result.
I'm ok with that as I have now discovered free legal streaming, but anime is bloody overpriced in this country.

Compared to the US, yes. Compared to Japan, very no. Japan is too expensive. The US is too cheap. Our prices, I think, are pretty fair. I've happily collected series I like at £10-£12 a disc in the past, and would have been happy to continue doing so.

My problem now is that they've moving away from single disc releases to boxed sets, but the sets actually seem worth *less* to me than the old single disc releases because of the cheap way they're packaged. If they had switched to releasing nice artboxes I would have been only too happy to fork over £50-£70 a series. Plastic bricks I can grudgingly import for £20, so why would I pay any more? And that's being generous and not factoring in the delay between the US and UK release dates...

I recently went to HMV with goal of buying Baccano! They almost had me ready to spend £45 pounds on it!! Thankfully I slapped myself hard in the face and snapped out of my consumerist trace before I actually went through with it. Baccano's not even 20 episodes long. Like wise I recently went to Forbidden planet to buy Planetes, they were charging £40 per half a series, thats £80 for the whole hog! They might as well be whipping down their pants and slapping their balls in face.

Interestingly I'm also of the opposite view from you on packaging. I'm not saying I don't appreciate nice packaging but I really could take it or leave it to be honest. I'd be happier buying a show at a cheaper rate and receiving it in a totally non descript, bog standard piece of cardboard with no needless extras. I buy anime to simply watch it, I'm not a collector and never will be, frankly I would be happiest if DVDs just came in brown paper envelopes, making life easy for both me and the environment.

@Reaper, thanks for the explanation. That was clearer.

Do you not buy online? (apologies if already covered)

 

[Vashdaman]

Generally speaking, no. Rarely I will though, if its something exceptional. But I still don't trust the net with my card details...

 

[ayase]

Time to join the 21st century Vash. Credit cards are insured for that sort of thing, and I've had a debit card defrauded and still got my money back. Thieves are gonna thieve, let them get on with it and then claim it back, it's the bank / insurance company's loss, not yours. Besides, you'll save more than you're ever likely to lose.

Also, is not wanting more, cheaper, symptomatic of consumerism itself? If you were anti-consumerism wouldn't you be willing to pay the true value of the product? All the creative work that's gone into it, plus the cost of materials, plus fair wages for those producing all the materials that go into it's manufacture and distribution... (yeah, I am half-teasing here, but it's an honest question).