The latest News from MANGA & BEEZ Twitter:

[awadama]

I'd love to see some of the older Gundam series released in the UK maybe straight to the anime legends label as they are pretty legendary.

I won't hold my breath though.

Totally, me too...because seriously, who's going to wanna spend £20 for five episodes of a 1980's mech series?

I'll be happy with any Gundam stuff at all on AL though...I won't even consider pay the kind of prices individual volumes go for, so budget releases like this are awesome for me.

 

[Mohawk52]

MANGA: They have dismissed talk of doing a TV channel as it would too expensive.

No advertising , no increase in sales. No increase in sales, no advertising. It's a vicious cycle, just like there's no success without risk, but if you don't take the risk, you can not succeed, and anime stays under its rock. Here's an idea for nought. why don't Beez and Manga split the budget for a 30 second spot? Can't catch fish without bait on the hook. :wink:

 

[Kyoraki]

MANGA: They have dismissed talk of doing a TV channel as it would too expensive.

No advertising , no increase in sales. No increase in sales, no advertising. It's a vicious cycle, just like there's no success without risk, but if you don't take the risk, you can not succeed, and anime stays under its rock. Here's an idea for nought. why don't Beez and Manga split the budget for a 30 second spot? Can't catch fish without bait on the hook. :wink:

Now there is an idea. rather than all this TV channel and 'anime on TV' stuff, I think we need to take a step back and actually raise some public awareness first. I doubt Ghilbi would be anywhere near as popular as it is if it weren't for the barrage of ads for Spirited Away and Howls Moving Castle we had a few years ago.

 

[Neferpitou]

But why release a brand new series into Anime Legend format so in way devaluing the product and stopping any chance to do a re-release to make extra money towards costs. When you could release it into better packaged version for 40-60 pound release first (i.e Cowboy Bebop Remix) then into Anime legend version later on.

Not wanting to put words into andrews mouth but..

Why risk tooling up for a full release of say scrapped princess in a full price series set, when most people who want it, already have it on R1 anime legends so will wait for the box price to drop and loose money?

May as well start with a "value"/"budget" release and not risk the cost of extra tooling.

Stack em high and sell em cheap... I don't think selling an old series for a lower price is devaluing the product, but selling the product at a price which means that importing is less of an incentive.

Why import the R1 for £17.99 when you can get the R2 version for £23.99 say? I (and probably many others) wouldn't spend £60 when i can get it for £17.99?

Re-release a title is very cheap way to increase sale. Just look at BEEZ Wolf Rain as an example:

Wolf Rain 7 single volumes
Wolf's Rain - Complete Collection Vol.1 & 2
Wolf's Rain The Definitive Edition
Wolf Rain Anime Legend Box Set

That 4 separate releases which prove my point. Even if a high quality version fails to sell you can always make Anime Legend later on.

If a new title like scrapped princess makes it over here there little chance of it having an RRP of £24.99. MANGA who sell a lot more DVD's than BEEZ by the way, their cheapest price for 26 episode first release is £40 (i.e like xxxholic part 1 & 2). There no way BEEZ are going undercut Manga prices or for that matter match them.

 

[ayase]

But of the releases you list Dave:

Wolf Rain 7 single volumes
Wolf's Rain - Complete Collection Vol.1 & 2
Wolf's Rain The Definitive Edition
Wolf Rain Anime Legend Box Set

It doesn't look like Beez are going to be releasing in the first two methods any more. They haven't released a single volume in ages, only MVM are still doing that. Which also means they won't be boxing the single volumes up in the way they used to. The Gurren Lagann & Gundam 00 releases were double packs with first volume collector's editions which enabled you to create a boxed set. Beez are just changing direction, that's why there are so many versions of Wolf's Rain. I very much doubt these releases were planned that way in advance.

Theorising is all very well and good, but none of us who are not in the industry really know what releasing method works best, what things cost to licence, how things are likely to be released or what the likely cost to the consumer is likely to be. I think we'd be better off waiting to see what actually happens than debating 'known unknowns'.

 

[fabio de lunatico]

That 4 separate releases which prove my point. Even if a high quality version fails to sell you can always make Anime Legend later on.

If a high quality version fails to sell that's an awful lot of money wasted on premium packaging.

If Beez thought there was enough interest in Scrapped Princess to warrant producing a high quality version, surely it would have received a singles release years ago. But if the license isn't too expensive, that may enable them to put out a budget release and make money from it.

 

[Neferpitou]

But of the releases you list Dave:

Wolf Rain 7 single volumes
Wolf's Rain - Complete Collection Vol.1 & 2
Wolf's Rain The Definitive Edition
Wolf Rain Anime Legend Box Set

It doesn't look like Beez are going to be releasing in the first two methods any more. They haven't released a single volume in ages, only MVM are still doing that. Which also means they won't be boxing the single volumes up in the way they used to. The Gurren Lagann & Gundam 00 releases were double packs with first volume collector's editions which enabled you to create a boxed set. Beez are just changing direction, that's why there are so many versions of Wolf's Rain. I very much doubt these releases were planned that way in advance.

Theorising is all very well and good, but none of us who are not in the industry really know what releasing method works best, what things cost to licence, how things are likely to be released or what the likely cost to the consumer is likely to be. I think we'd be better off waiting to see what actually happens than debating 'known unknowns'.

It's to show that re-releasing a show is cheap method to make more money, which it proves. There a lot of grey area in the UK anime industry which will never know about but it frankly clear to see MANGA sells a lot more than BEEZ. So there no possible way for BEEZ to beat them in price as they can't sell anywhere near the number MANGA can. You can't argue against that as that fact, meaning if scrapped princess make it over here it would cost more than £25 and probably more than bench mark set by MANGA of £40. If by some miracle they sell it for less than £40 they will be making serious lose on that release.

That 4 separate releases which prove my point. Even if a high quality version fails to sell you can always make Anime Legend later on.

If a high quality version fails to sell that's an awful lot of money wasted on premium packaging.

If Beez thought there was enough interest in Scrapped Princess to warrant producing a high quality version, surely it would have received a singles release years ago. But if the license isn't too expensive, that may enable them to put out a budget release and make money from it.

Creating premium packaging does not cost that much otherwise Code Geass wouldn't be priced at RRP £39.99 and £29.99 to buy online. It only essential paper,cardboard, ink and plastic material when it comes down to it. Sure it would cost more than just doing Anime Legend box set but not ridiculous amount more. Just look at Anime Bootlegs and how little they sell for when they are despatched from hong kong and the packaging in lot case matches BEEZ's premium artwork box sets.

 

[Hokum]

Creating premium packaging does not cost that much otherwise Code Geass wouldn't be priced at RRP £39.99 and £29.99 to buy online. It only essential paper,cardboard, ink and plastic material when it comes down to it. Sure it would cost more than just doing Anime Legend box set but not ridiculous amount more. Just look at Anime Bootlegs and how little they sell for when they are despatched from hong kong and the packaging in lot case matches BEEZ's premium artwork box sets.

You would be surprised how much printing costs, and licences. The reason that the knock off's are so cheap even with fancy packages is that they don't have to pay for the licence and expensive western printing or designers.

Sorry Dave but i agree with Ayase and fabricatedlunatic I think releasing an older series like scrapped princess (i'm using it as an example as i like the series and its on anime legends in the US) is asking to loose money.

It makes much better sense to me to sell lots for a smaller profit per unit than sell few for a larger margin.

 

[Neferpitou]

Creating premium packaging does not cost that much otherwise Code Geass wouldn't be priced at RRP £39.99 and £29.99 to buy online. It only essential paper,cardboard, ink and plastic material when it comes down to it. Sure it would cost more than just doing Anime Legend box set but not ridiculous amount more. Just look at Anime Bootlegs and how little they sell for when they are despatched from hong kong and the packaging in lot case matches BEEZ's premium artwork box sets.

You would be surprised how much printing costs, and licences. The reason that the knock off's are so cheap even with fancy packages is that they don't have to pay for the licence and expensive western printing or designers.

Sorry Dave but i agree with Ayase and fabricatedlunatic I think releasing an older series like scrapped princess (i'm using it as an example as i like the series and its on anime legends in the US) is asking to loose money.

It makes much better sense to me to sell lots for a smaller profit per unit than sell few for a larger margin.

You know how much it would cost to send item from hong kong to the uk, it would cost a lot. Also if the deluxe packaging is so expensive to make why do bootlegger use them if its going to cut heavily into their profit margins.

Also with the special editions its the extras that cost the money like adding a book, t-shirt, toy, etc not the packaging. The three of you just can't fathom that BEEZ won't be able to afford to release older new license titles at really low price to compete with the american Anime Legend line.

As said before if MANGA cheapest full 26 episode series release is £40, BEEZ at best will only be able to match that with out making a big loss. With MANGA titles selling thousand of each release while BEEZ lucky to reach a thousand a volume, I think it will be struggle to match MANGA price point. With an £40+ RRP and with probable online price £30+ is that going to stop people importing the same region 1 box set release which can be found cheaper £5-10+ cheaper.

 

[Hokum]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think it would be asking to loose money for Beez to release an older series for a high price with R1 boxsets priced too reasonably.

 

[Neferpitou]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think it would be asking to loose money for Beez to release an older series for a high price with R1 boxsets priced too reasonably.

That why the 3rd release of Wolf Rain the collector edition which had an RRP of £100 is incredibly hard to find these days, the special edtions of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya are sold out and the general great reaction that cowboy bebop remix box set got. High quality version can sell well.

It not going to cost a lot more to simply take the cowboy bebop box set design and change the artwork to match the what ever older series to be released. It going add at most £5 to the cost. Why bother to release a cheap £45 box set which can no way compete with USA region 1 Anime legend in price when you could release a better packaged version £50. Which is only £5 more but it would be a lot more eye catching and more tempting to buy because of it than the current R1 Anime legend buy.

Before you start arguing I am wrong and the packaging would cost a lot more explain to me how the slayer series box set in america who have the same style of printed artwork cardboard and plastic as cowboy bebop remix does are so cheap. The Slayer box sets are some of the cheapest complete anime series box sets around in the USA.

 

[ayase]

But you're talking about Wolf's Rain, Haruhi and Bebop - Along with Gurren Lagann those are probably Beez's biggest licences. Would series' like Outlaw Star and Scrapped Princess have enough hardcore fans in the UK, who would be willing to pay double the price of the R1 for better packaging? I would think probably not.

You're basically advising Beez to spend a little to make a little - why would they bother? A company will only spend more than necessary if they stand to make a lot - that's business.

 

[Neferpitou]

But you're talking about Wolf's Rain, Haruhi and Bebop - Along with Gurren Lagann those are probably Beez's biggest licences. Would series' like Outlaw Star and Scrapped Princess have enough hardcore fans in the UK, who would be willing to pay double the price of the R1 for better packaging? I would think probably not.

You're basically advising Beez to spend a little to make a little - why would they bother? A company will only spend more than necessary if they stand to make a lot - that's business.

Even If these box sets do get release over here for Scrapped Princess or Outlaw Star even in low quality packaging they will still be twice the price of R1 anime release anyway. So why buy a cheap quality UK release when you can import the cheaper USA release anyway. That's why it should be higher quality to attract people away from the no question more cheaper USA release.

If the box set was of a high quality to match the current Cowboy Bebop remix release then there at least a reason too have it over the USA one. I would argue people more inclined to buy it as well as BEEZ tend to be more for hardcore audience anyway than mainstream audience than let say MANGA. You can see this by the various limited editions they churn out and which sell really well.

It wouldn't cost that much more to do cowboy bebop style box set otherwise why does Funimation use the similar design on their slayer series box sets which I say again are some of the cheapest box set available in the USA.

To put the notion to rest that it could be released at the RRP of £24.99, imagine they agree a cut priced license fee of £30,000 with other costs like BBFC, production, design extra this rises to £36,000. With HMV selling each volume of these anime legend box sets at £14.99 minus there profit margin and shipping BEEZ get something like £12. To break even they would need to sell 3,000 copies. Beez have said themselves they struggle to sell 1,000 copies of a lot titles so how niche title like Scrapped Princess going to sell 3 times that.

 

[ayase]

One: I don't think I've ever said I thought any new series' would be released in full at an RRP of £24.99. Two: Do you know these licence prices, production costs and profit margins for a fact? Because if not, I'm not going to get into a discussion on the economics of the situation... it could become speculation hell. Three: Even if you were to make the packaging (and therefore the UK version) more appealing, you still aren't increasing the number of fans. Even with the nice box, how many casual fans are going to pick up and shell out upwards of £40 on a full series (especially an older one) straight off the bat?

"You can see this by the various limited editions they churn out and which sell really well." - The Wolf's Rain one was a success I'll grant you. But what about the Patlabor ones, which even though there were only 1000 copies of each ended up being bundled together and finally sold off for less than a quarter of their RRP?

Don't get me wrong, I love nice packaging and am happy to pay a bit more for it - but I'm 90% certain I'm in the minority in that view. For most people the primary consideration is cost, and nothing more. If it isn't even remotely competitive with the R1 releases then it won't sell in large quantities. And that's what these new Anime Legends titles seem to be doing - making R2 releases more competitive than ever before. And that is really good news. I'm happy to forego my shiny boxes if it means a chance at growth for the anime market in the UK.

For example - the upcoming Eureka 7 sets. It was a series I liked the look of but wasn't sure enough to spend a lot of money on. When the chance came up to own the whole thing for £30 I jumped at the chance. I didn't give a second thought to the packaging. I can't be the only one who thinks like this, and I imagine the same will happen with the other Anime Legends sets.

 

[Hokum]

Agreed, at the end of the day its the DVD's i'm interested in not the shiney box they come in.

Though i did buy the Patlabor 1+2 LE versions but that was £17.99! In this case is was for he story boards and making of's i wanted them for.

 

[Neferpitou]

One: I don't think I've ever said I thought any new series' would be released in full at an RRP of £24.99. Two: Do you know these licence prices, production costs and profit margins for a fact? Because if not, I'm not going to get into a discussion on the economics of the situation... it could become speculation hell. Three: Even if you were to make the packaging (and therefore the UK version) more appealing, you still aren't increasing the number of fans. Even with the nice box, how many casual fans are going to pick up and shell out upwards of £40 on a full series (especially an older one) straight off the bat?

But without RRP values close to £24.99 its simply not going to successful challenge USA Anime Legend line up with the cheap style release. With a likely UK RRP closer to £40-60 mark for complete work. its not going to make people stop importing the USA release. Just done a search on-line for R1 complete release of the possible future UK Anime Legend title: OUTLAW STAR and with it below customs mark and P&P it work out at £20.42. There no way BEEZ can compete with the USA at that price so the only choice is to make better packaged version.

For the third time you ignore the example set out by R1 Slayer series box sets that has similar style box set to the UK BEEZ Cowboy Bebop Boxset. With slayers box sets being some of the cheapest complete series box sets around it squash the thoughts that those type of box set are incredibly expensive to produce.

On the costs of releasing, It would cost alone in BBFC fees £3375 (not including any video extras) to release a series like SCRAPPED PRINCESS and that is a fact, just look as price figures set out on BBFC site and the known SCRAPPED PRINCESS runtime. License fees are notoriously expensive and BEEZ would never be successful with a really low license fee offer because of the competition from MANGA or MVM. With all the imaginable possible costs, the figure I suggested of £36,000 would be frankly rather optimistic cheap price to release a complete 26 episode series.

"You can see this by the various limited editions they churn out and which sell really well." - The Wolf's Rain one was a success I'll grant you. But what about the Patlabor ones, which even though there were only 1000 copies of each ended up being bundled together and finally sold off for less than a quarter of their RRP?

Well they decide to release a pair Movies already released cheaply by the mainstream company MANGA. Meaning nearly everyone who wanted a copy had already got one. It was obvious it was going to fail as a release no matter what they did with it. But at least they did 6 DVD releases to spread the costs out.

Don't get me wrong, I love nice packaging and am happy to pay a bit more for it - but I'm 90% certain I'm in the minority in that view. For most people the primary consideration is cost, and nothing more. If it isn't even remotely competitive with the R1 releases then it won't sell in large quantities. And that's what these new Anime Legends titles seem to be doing - making R2 releases more competitive than ever before. And that is really good news. I'm happy to forego my shiny boxes if it means a chance at growth for the anime market in the UK.

For example - the upcoming Eureka 7 sets. It was a series I liked the look of but wasn't sure enough to spend a lot of money on. When the chance came up to own the whole thing for £30 I jumped at the chance. I didn't give a second thought to the packaging. I can't be the only one who thinks like this, and I imagine the same will happen with the other Anime Legends sets.

BEEZ sell more towards the collector buyer, just look how many their recent release have either been limited editions or had high end packaging:

Code Geass
Cowboy Bebop
Freedom
Gurren Lagaan
Gunbuster 2
Mobile Suit Gundam 00
Mobile Suit Gundam Wing
Patlabor Movies
Sword of the Stranger
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya
Wolf's Rain

That near enough every new UK title released by BEEZ.

They can only afford to release Euerka Seven in this cheaper format because of previous sales from single volumes and box set releases. It good Idea to get the last few pound from a release and hopefully get the casual buyer who walks into a HMV and sees 25 episodes for £25. But it can only be done when you got previous sales of more expensive releases from BEEZ to back it up, it can't be long term sales method for new series releases as it could never be sold at that same price and break even. Good way to make extra cash on existing series but you still need to release series in more expensive format first for it to work.

 

[ayase]

For the third time you ignore the example set out by R1 Slayer series box sets that has similar style box set to the UK BEEZ Cowboy Bebop Boxset. With slayers box sets being some of the cheapest complete series box sets around it squash the thoughts that those type of box set are incredibly expensive to produce.

No Dave, I don't think those boxes are 'incredibly expensive to produce', I addressed that point in an earlier post. My point was that if the price is £45+ then no amount of cheap tarting up of the releases would make casual buyers buy them:

You're basically advising Beez to spend a little to make a little - why would they bother? A company will only spend more than necessary if they stand to make a lot - that's business.

-----

They can only afford to release Euerka Seven in this cheaper format because of previous sales from single volumes and box set releases. It good Idea to get the last few pound from a release and hopefully get the casual buyer who walks into a HMV and sees 25 episodes for £25.

Undoubtedly so, but Eureka 7 was a new series. Older series won't sell as well, so if Beez could get the licences for some older series' cheaper then it would make more sense to release them as full sets with a competitive price against the R1. I don't really care if it's feasible or not, my point is that it would be sensible.

Just done a search on-line for R1 complete release of the possible future UK Anime Legend title: OUTLAW STAR and with it below customs mark and P&P it work out at £20.42. There no way BEEZ can compete with the USA at that price so the only choice is to make better packaged version.

If that's their 'only choice' then they may as well not bother, don't you agree? It's like admitting they've lost against R1 and the only way they can get people to choose R2 (even fans) is coercion by packaging. Which might work, if it was up to £10 more expensive. Not if it's £20 more expensive. Even the fans would balk at that kind of discrepancy.

We've spent a long time on this now (too long) but I feel I can sum up my POV in more technical terms:

Price of older series (to consumer, regardless of RRP) >£30 = Will sell to casual buyers.
Price of older series (to consumer, regardless of RRP) £30> = Will not sell to casual buyers.

To casual buyers nothing else matters. Not packaging, not extras, just price.

 

[Just Passing Through]

Three factors... licensing, BBFC and NTSC-PAL conversion.

The cost of licensing a title decreases with age, the older a title, the cheaper it is to release. It helps if a title has already been released in Europe/Australia, as the PAL masters will already exist. Only a Manga sized company can afford to pay for conversions themselves, and even they will usually go for Madman masters.

The fly in the ointment is the BBFC, the costs of getting a title rated do not change. Beez will most likely raid their back catalogue first for Anime Legends. The money has already been spent on all three factors. All that's left is to pay for a new disc run to be pressed and new packaging, and advertising.

There is scope for the older Bandai back catalogue titles to be released direct to Anime Legends, but it depends on whether PAL masters exist, and how much it costs to license (Some shows may already be licensed for UK release. Funimation license a whole lot of their stuff for UK and Europe as well as the US, they just never release it here). The BBFC charges will be set as always, which is why we may see shorter series tried out first, the 13 episode runs. (Maybe Please Teacher?!) But it really all depends on how well the UK Anime Legends brand does initially. Lets see how the first three months do...

 

[fabio de lunatico]

Don't Beez always do their own conversions?

I wonder how their releases do in France. All their releases have French subtitles and, presumably, are sold there. Isn't France the biggest market for anime and manga outside Japan?

 

[ayase]

I think that's right. Damn you Guy Mollet and Sir Anthony Eden!