Something to muse over.

[Zin5ki]

I recently came across the following ethical puzzle:

The Railway cart. A runaway cart is about to kill five workers on the track. You notice that you can pull a switch, thereby sending the trolley down a seperate line where there is only one worker who would be killed.

The Fat Man. A fat man is standing on a bridge overlooking the railway track. If you push him off the bridge he will land on the track and be run down and killed, but his weight will stop the cart, thereby saving the lives of the five workmen in its path.

According to statistical tests, many people would flick the switch, but would not push the fat man. That is to say, many people would be happy to let the five workmen die if the only other option were to kill a man with their own hands, even though they would otherwise opt to save the majority.

So I put the question to you, dear forumites. Would you only take action in the former of the two cases, or would you minimise the loss of life in both?

If you feel inclined to give reasons supporting your response, you may do so in any way you wish. That should ensure interesting discussion.

 

[ayase]

I wouldn't do anything in either situation. At the point where the cart is freely rolling down the track, I would responsible for the death of no-one, though five people may die in an accident. If I pull the lever or push the fat man off the bridge, I have chosen which innocent people will live at the expense of others. Numbers of casualties mean less to me than knowingly sacrificing others who didn't have a choice in the matter.

A possible 'Option C' might be to point out to the fat man that he could jump if he wished, or to yell a warning to the five. Perhaps if I and the fat man yelled together they might hear?

 

[Jaymii]

I'm positive I wouldn't be able to push a fat man, even if I wanted to, but I could flick as switch - although I would probably do neither. In all honesty, I'd ignore it and see if it went away, because... I have no legitimate reason, I'd try to have no involvement in the accident, and just save myself. Thinking about it, even if getting arrested was taken out of the equation, I'd still try to ignore that I was ever in that position and walk away.

I'll agree that the switch flicking is a much more viable thing to do though. It's a detached form of killing someone, I suppose. I wouldn't be doing it - a machine would.

 

[Rui]

I'd feel especially sorry for the fat man as he wasn't even in the dangerous place; the others were. It's extremely unlikely I'd push him as I'd judge him to be an innocent bystander.

I'd probably do nothing and hope the corpse of the first of the five slowed down the cart or something and gave the others time to attempt to dodge. I'm terrible in an emergency situation and wouldn't want to decide who lives and who dies.

Shouting a warning does sound like the most sensible choice in all cases. Perhaps there is no room to avoid the danger or they are all profoundly deaf.

R

 

[chaos]

If there's enough time to pull a switch or push a fat man, there should be enough time to shout at the guys to get out of the way, no? Anyway, I have no idea what I'd do until I am in such situation.

 

[Ryo Chan]

push the fat guy

the other 6 have something to offer the comunity, other than keeping mcdonalds in business

 

[ayase]

If I might add, if you were to take the decision to sacrifice one to save five, what if the fat man or the lone man on the track was supporting a large family (and had no life insurance) and the other five were bachelors? You may feel somewhat guilty if you found that out afterwards.

It's equally possible you may feel bad were you not to pull the switch or push the fat man if the five were family men and he wasn't, but as a bystander rather than an active participant in proceedings I doubt you'd feel the burden of guilt as acutely.

Edit: Re-phrased for clarification.

 

[Ryo Chan]

then again, maybe the fat guy can bounce the truck away with his belly

 

[ilmaestro]

Is there any way I can push the fat guy just for kicks, and still have the five guys on the track die?

 

[SciFiBoy!]

Is there any way I can push the fat guy just for kicks, and still have the five guys on the track die?

better yet, leave the switch so the 5 die, when the other 1 comes to see what happened, then you push the fat guy on top of him, that way everyone dies and you win.

 

[Tachi]

In truth, i'd drive the nearest car onto the tracks and hope that keeps it at bay.

Given only the choices above.....i'd rather psh the fat man infront of the train. but i'd wear plastic gloves and a showercap, also bin my shoes and buy new ones. Burn any clothes that blood had got onto...and then come into work the next day and act like i knew nothing *shifty eyes* :lol:

The one guy wouldn't stop the cart anyway....if it has the potential to run over and kill 5 men...each weighing an average of 12stone. Then the fatman would have to be atleast 60stones to be equal to them, between 65 and 70stone to slow the train down enough to prevent it from killing the 5 workers anyway.
So physically....you couldn't push the fat guy onto the tracks as it would be physically impossible on you own.

 

[MaxonTreik]

Shouting a warning does sound like the most sensible choice in all cases. Perhaps there is no room to avoid the danger or they are all profoundly deaf.

If there's enough time to pull a switch or push a fat man, there should be enough time to shout at the guys to get out of the way, no? Anyway, I have no idea what I'd do until I am in such situation.

Saying you'd shout is missing the point.

 

[Soubi-Hurt]

I personally would have killed all seven of the bastards.

 

[ayase]

Saying you'd shout is missing the point.

Well if want to break this down to remove any other possibilities, then the question is really:

Would you choose to sacrifice one life to save five if:
a. You were detatched from the act of killing.
b. You must perform the killing yourself.

And my answer is that I wouldn't be willing to choose who to sacrifice and who to save, so would allow the five to die. An accident is an accident, and no-one has chosen those five men to die. I on the other hand, would have chosen to kill the lone man or the fat man.

 

[chaos]

Shouting a warning does sound like the most sensible choice in all cases. Perhaps there is no room to avoid the danger or they are all profoundly deaf.

If there's enough time to pull a switch or push a fat man, there should be enough time to shout at the guys to get out of the way, no? Anyway, I have no idea what I'd do until I am in such situation.

Saying you'd shout is missing the point.

I guess that my point here is that I wouldn't know what to do. Getting anxious/ excited and shout is the easiest / fastest thing I can think of.

 

[BlackWolf]

Saying you'd shout is missing the point.

Well if want to break this down to remove any other possibilities, then the question is really:

Would you choose to sacrifice one life to save five if:
a. You were detatched from the act of killing.
b. You must perform the killing yourself.

And my answer is that I wouldn't be willing to choose who to sacrifice and who to save, so would allow the five to die. An accident is an accident, and no-one has chosen those five men to die. I on the other hand, would have chosen to kill the lone man or the fat man.

Thing is though say this came to light after it happened and people found out that you could of saved the lives wouldn't they pin it on you anyway? Saying "You could of done something!" "Their blood is on your hand because you wouldn't save them" That sort of thing. In this society we've bred, a thing like that is almost as bad as doing either option anyway.

 

[chaos]

Thing is though say this came to light after it happened and people found out that you could of saved the lives wouldn't they pin it on you anyway? Saying "You could of done something!" "Their blood is on your hand because you wouldn't save them" That sort of thing. In this society we've bred, a thing like that is almost as bad as doing either option anyway.

I don't think so... it's still murder we are talking about here, regardless of the fact you did for the greater good...

 

[BlackWolf]

Thing is though say this came to light after it happened and people found out that you could of saved the lives wouldn't they pin it on you anyway? Saying "You could of done something!" "Their blood is on your hand because you wouldn't save them" That sort of thing. In this society we've bred, a thing like that is almost as bad as doing either option anyway.

I don't think so... it's still murder we are talking about here, regardless of the fact you did for the greater good...

True but the family members of the ones who could of been saved would probably disagree with that. If it was me, I wouldn't be able to come to a decision in time to be able to save anyone or do anything (I'm horribly indecisive)

 

[shira]

If there's enough time to pull a switch or push a fat man, there should be enough time to shout at the guys to get out of the way, no? Anyway, I have no idea what I'd do until I am in such situation.

Then assume they can't hear you due to wearing ear-defenders.

The one guy wouldn't stop the cart anyway....if it has the potential to run over and kill 5 men...each weighing an average of 12stone. Then the fatman would have to be atleast 60stones to be equal to them, between 65 and 70stone to slow the train down enough to prevent it from killing the 5 workers anyway.

Ayase summarized the choices well. It's pointless picking holes in this kinda thing really.

 

[Project-2501]

Move the points half way, cart derails and stops.

Life is never black or white.