Regarding legality of certain content.

I think the thing I keep coming back to is that it's just complete and utter fantasy - it's about enjoying something that doesn't exist in real life. Would I watch it with my parents? No. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy it on my own. I truly believe that there is something fundamentally inherent to the medium of animation/manga that separates it from equivalent scenes in live action and allows you to enjoy it in its own way. After all, it's just lines and colour on a TV screen/piece of paper. It's almost like saying, because the art is so good, has it somehow imbued these characters with life beyond a simple scribble or stick man would represent?
 
I get it's not real. But it is scummy. This is no less fantasy than anime, and likewise scummy:


It's plays fictionally abusing women for laughs and entertainment, just as Bake does.
 
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I can't bear to actually listen to that awfulness you posted, but having read the lyrics I can understand why it would make for uncomfortable listening. Bakemonogatari may have some questionable fanservice, and the sexual harassment of Mayoi is a strange thing to play for laughs, but a song about forcing a woman into prostitution and beating/threatening to kill her if she disobeys is (in)arguably worse. You should feel bad. For the lyrical content AND the terrible music. Me? Nah, I can deal with some silly groping in a cartoon.

Btw, have you watched Nisemonogatari yet? >:{D
 
Yeah I don't tend to listen to stuff that high up the misogyny scale anymore, but I think the principle is the same as with Lutga's argument for Bake's questionable content. Bake is fiction in a medium and genre in which casual sexism for entertainment is acceptable and encouraged. Project Pat's Gorilla Pimp is fiction in a genre in which casual sexism and saying the most ridiculous **** is acceptable and encouraged. And on the flipside I'm sure there are just as many who would say they can deal with Project Pat's ridiculous boasts of violent machismo, but not the groping of pre teen girls in anime. But what if we refused to deal with all of it, wouldn't that be better?

No I've only watched like two eps. Is that the right one to watch after Bake? Is the show worth sticking with, there's quite a few series of it now, does the quality dip?. Sorry, that's a bit off topic.
 
NormanicGrav said:
Joshawott said:
However, I have to take a step back and remember that Mirai is a 15 year old girl in a Japanese game made mainly for the Japanese market; so by those standards she is of legal age. To the target audience, she would be little more than a flat-chest girl, which there is of course nothing wrong with.

Huh, according to my Japanese Bon Appetit! booklet Mirai is 16 years old (on the info spec on the page it mentions 年齢: 16 歳 which apparently translates to Age: 16 years old). Not trying to brag or anything but I do agree on what you're saying about her. I would say Minori is probably more controversal because she's in fact 15 years old (according to the booklet also) and looks very similar to Mayoi* from Monogatari (she even carries a big bag like her!).

*I mention her because she's pretty much the loli of Monogatari (alongside Shinobu).
I swear I remember reading somewhere that Mirai was 15; so either I read it wrong or she's aged between the earlier games and the newer ones.

And Minori is also controversial for being bloody annoying xD. She's another good example though because despite her more "mature physique", her behaviour being like that of a little kid is weird:
P_minori.jpg
.

Hibari could also arguably be put into that category too, even though she's 16.
 
vashdaman said:
But what if we refused to deal with all of it, wouldn't that be better?
My view is that entertainment would be dull if there was nothing that pushed (or indeed crossed without regard for) the boundaries of good taste. Nothing that made you go wide-eyed and say "did they really go there?". What I would say about mainstream anime is that there's very few shows that I've seen in which a male character gropes a female character without being punched in the face for his troubles. And in Bakemonogatari, let's not forget that Araragi is completely under the thumb of the wonderful Senjougahara.

Nisemonogatari is inferior to Bakemono but in my opinion is absolutely worth watching if not for your entertainment, then mine.

u4p9xZz.png
 
I would cheerfully watch Bakemonogatari (and its sequels) with my partner - and indeed do. I actually find it less offensive to my inner feminist than most of the output of Hollywood these days; the girls might be constantly sexualised but at least they have some level of agency and personality beyond being the backstabbing femme fatales and personality-deficient love interests which still represent most women on television and in the cinema in the west. In 2015. In films promoted as showing 'strong female leads' (a claim which Bakemonogatari most certainly doesn't make to begin with).

I gather that the original question was about the Mayoi scenes, which I've always interpreted as more comical than sexy. I've never found them titillating in the slightest, whereas Tsubasa's opening sequence and the overtly sexual moments in Nisemonogatari and later episodes are obviously intended that way. And most importantly, I don't think Mayoi herself feels upset by the teasing - or at least I don't think she finds it any more upsetting than when he makes fun of her in other ways.

I'm not saying that to mean it's ok to shame and objectify someone if they're too immature to understand, but at the same time it's nonsensical to assume that someone so young is going to see things the same way an adult would. It's not as though the things being depicted are black and white cases of sexual abuse. I have a younger relative and he's at the age where he thinks it's the height of comedy to pull his pants down or have his pants pulled down. He has no idea what sex is, and doesn't care. He's just being a kid who has picked up on the fact that adults consider showing their bottoms rude without having the slightest idea why that might be.

(I have no idea how people can raise children in our conservative society without making peace with the fact that adults and children see sexual material in completely different lights. I'm mentioning this because it's getting to the point where any adult interacting with a person under the age of twenty is entering a minefield where anything they do is under scrutiny for potential perversion.)

I was once Mayoi's age myself, like most of us, and back then I'd have found the same thing embarrassing without understanding why I was embarrassed. It's the opposite of why my kid relative finds it so funny, and it's because women are (sexistly) socialised into feeling shame about their bodies long before they develop any sense of what they actually do and don't like for themselves. Girls who don't act shocked when someone sees their pants or breasts are regarded as bad girls, even though it's not their fault and British television is full of girls showing their pants or breasts at all times of day. Neither pants nor breasts are sex organs. I interpret Mayoi's reactions as being driven by the same emotions I felt back before I learnt about my own sexuality and understood what a jumble of nonsense our social norms actually are. She might have come to decide that she was uncomfortable showing that kind of thing later on, but even then it's barely worth remarking on next to the severe sexual abuse and misogyny women experience and see in the media every day.

Moving on, Arararagi is old enough to make his part in the teasing questionable but I've always felt that he sees Mayoi more as a younger sister and (most importantly) he'd be devastated if she was genuinely upset by it. I live in the real world; I've been groped and treated in misogynistic ways and actually, in most cases girls brush that stuff off because it's (tragically) an everyday event. Bakemonogatari makes it clear that Arararagi's activities are morally wrong, and the girls are shown to have the agency to tell him so themselves when he crosses a line without bottling it up inside and turning it into a frustrating reminder of how unjust the real world is. NisiOisiN's world has a more relaxed depiction of sexuality than normal; much less irritating than seeing girls screaming with shame and blushing furiously the way they do in most other fan service titles.

I have a major problem with the inconsistency of UK law in how it views the (intentionally) bizarre sexualisation in the Monogatari series and other fan service titles as acceptable when a harmless non-sexual girl/girl breast grab is too obscene to be rated in Code Geass, but that's because our country is silly. This topic (and Vash's recent bump) show that people have no idea where the line should even be drawn when the rules are being applied in such a haphazard way.

Sorry, I rambled a bit. I'd find it more offensive in a lesser series, but it doesn't bother me at all in Monogatari where I'm reasonably convinced the original writer knew what he was doing.

R
 
Interesting reply Rui (and Fabricated too), some good points made certainty. But while it is true Araragi usually gets a smack in the face for his lecherousness, my problem is that (like so much other anime) inappropriately forcing oneself on a young woman is just seen as one big recurring joke. I guess that's the point because it's meant to be nothing more than a joke (and not for titillation, as you point out), but I still can't help cringing every time I see it and feeling pretty uncomfortable with it, as it trivializes something that's actually horrible.

But yeah, thanks for the interesting insights.
 
An interesting thought - what if the morals in the Monogatari universe are different to our own. It feels like a show that plays very fast and loose with the concept of sexuality - perhaps this is a world where our own taboos and suchlike regarding sex, sexism and sexuality don't exist. It's easy to see the scene where Hanekawa and Sennogahara 'fool around' In the shower as mere titilation, but perhaps in the world of the show, this is a completely casual occurrence.
 
Crikey. Though to be honest, if the likes of LA Blue Girl and Idol of Darkness can get UK releases, then anything probably can...
 
Did La Blue Girl ever actually get released in the UK? I know that Manga submitted it to BBFC, but I was under the impression that, given the amount that would have needed to be cut, they were told it wasn't worth bothering.
 
I've always wondered what would happen if a distributor licensed an anime series, only for the BBFC to refuse classification? Would they lumbered with a useless license they can't really use with thousands of pounds down the drain, or would there be any provisions to go back on the license and get their money (or at least some of it) back?

I imagine that the realistic result would be the former.
 
Joshawott said:
I've always wondered what would happen if a distributor licensed an anime series, only for the BBFC to refuse classification? Would they lumbered with a useless license they can't really use with thousands of pounds down the drain, or would there be any provisions to go back on the license and get their money (or at least some of it) back?

I imagine that the realistic result would be the former.

I imagine most licensors would steer clear of anything that explicit. Or if it did happen, they'd perhaps submit a cut version (though this would obviously mean further expense as they'd have to edit the files and author themselves?)

Outside of hentai, is anything even that explicit though? I kind of feel if there was something that 'bad', it'd be pretty infamous by this point.
 
Yeah, in the past this has always had the outcome of making the distributor cut the offending content out. If the entire show was intrinsically too obscene for the BBFC, it's unlikely it would ever have got that far in the first place.

R
 
Rui said:
Yeah, in the past this has always had the outcome of making the distributor cut the offending content out. If the entire show was intrinsically too obscene for the BBFC, it's unlikely it would ever have got that far in the first place.

R

Not that it's likely to happen any time soon, but I do wonder if Overfiend was ever put out there for a remastered re-release, if it would have to be re-submitted and potentially be given a different classification or suffer different cuts/no cuts at all.
 
Interesting thread to read after not being involved in it - I think Lutga has already made most of the points I would have made, it's also important to realise (and there are increasing numbers of people on the internet who really need this hammered into their thick skulls like an ice pick) that depicting a fictional character doing something does not equal condoning or encouraging others to act in the same manner. As unpopular as it might make me pretty much anywhere I'd care to say it, I'd even defend 50 Shades of Grey on that account.

It's true there are people in the world who do encourage (and some who actively enforce upon others) racist, xenophobic, sexist and totalitarian ideals. These people are all real people and generally members (and particularly leaders) of political, social and religious movements. Fictional characters cannot, because being fictional they hold no real power over anyone and it's up to the audience how they view them - Nothing bad is going to happen to you if you disagree with the actions or views of a fictional character and you're free to do so. There is no threat from fictional characters, they aren't going to come out of the screen and sexually assault you or douse you with petrol and set you alight for disagreeing with them. And even if they did those things on screen, still nobody has been harmed in the real world. People who emulate fictional characters without understanding the negative effects their actions may have on others are called children (who should be being taught otherwise by their parents - that's their job and not that of media producers) or people with severe mental illness or disability who should probably be in the care of the state.
 
Lutga said:
An interesting thought - what if the morals in the Monogatari universe are different to our own. It feels like a show that plays very fast and loose with the concept of sexuality - perhaps this is a world where our own taboos and suchlike regarding sex, sexism and sexuality don't exist. It's easy to see the scene where Hanekawa and Sennogahara 'fool around' In the shower as mere titilation, but perhaps in the world of the show, this is a completely casual occurrence.
This is very close to where I stand, although not quite in the same way.

When I see something as generally well considered at the creative level as Bakemonogatari is, I am prepared to give credit for the intent behind these scenes. Not so much that they are "accepted" from an in-world point of view, but that they are just not happening in the same "literal" way as you would see them in a live action series.

When well written, these scenes can be metaphors for what the characters are "actually" doing (and in the case of Bakemonogatari specifically, the fidelity of the visual information provided is always at best subject to artistic interpretation), chosen deliberately to be represented by things that are easy to emote for or against when you consider a direct real world analogue.

When poorly written, or very obviously written for purely cynical reasons, people should be called out on it. But maybe that's too subjective a distinction to draw for most people to be happy with that.

Also Seikon no Qwaser is great.

Lutga said:
I was watching La Blue Girl the other day (don't ask...)
Due to the nature of this thread, I feel compelled to ask. :p

fabricatedlunatic said:
Nisemonogatari is inferior to Bakemono but in my opinion is absolutely worth watching if not for your entertainment, then mine.
I also kind of really hope this happened. lol.

Maybe that's why vash hasn't posted this month. :D
 
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